"Bolt Action 2 demo game and confirmed rules updates" Topic

Beasts of War have a demo game of the Bolt Action Second Edition rules.

YouTube link

Many new rules changes are covered – many, but not all. Here's a compiled list of known changes as played in the demo video.

LMG = 4 shots (now 36" instead of 30")
MMG = 5 shots
HMG = not mentioned

Down order = -2 to hit (instead of -1)
If you leave your order dice Down you lose D3 pins at the end of turn

No more shaped charge rule -1 to hit rule.

18" range for assault rifle (instead of 24")

Captain and Major give their morale boost to a range up to 12" (instead of 6")
1st or 2nd LT still 6" range

Captain and Major can order two other units to "act" at the same time. For example, you pick from the pouch an order dice, choose to activate the Captain, then you take 2 order dice from the pouch and give order to two units (who haven't yet activated) within 12".
1st and 2nd LT, same as Captain or Major but 1 order dice within 6".

Transports can fire one weapon system even when empty.

Vehicle and infantry flamethrowers need to hit first (ignore cover modifiers). Vehicle flamethrowers officially shortened to 12" range.

Air Observer – incoming air support – if the airplane receives 3 or more hits while coming to its target, the airstrike is over and done with (3 successful AA hits to drive airplane away)

Artillery Observer – when rolling 1 on the chart to see if it comes or not, now you scatter 3D6" so you see where it lands (instead of opponent choosing anywhere within 24")

Dense/area terrain classification – cannot see from one side to another

If you roll double 1 on a command check, you can remove D6 pins.

Rally order: command check unmodified (ignore pins)

Recce: you can't recce when you have an order die already assigned to you.

Tanks on Advance have a limited target selection (no more Shermans spraying 4 targets)

DISCLAIMER: gathered from the them playing the rules in this video so not 100% positive they are final rulebook changes NOR are they all of the changes.

Any change to the assault rules removing all pins from the defender?

Thanks

Nick

I waded through this as well. It is not gospel as they may have got some of their own rules wrong

I though that it was 6" infantry flame and 9" vehicle
I think that assault rifles are 9"
Medium mortar is 3" template must be centred on unit, will not scatter

I am wrong;
Medium mortar is 2"
Assault rifles could be 9 not 18" but that is from another source

Assault Rifles are 18" long range, so 9" short range.

So still 24" rifle range. Uncrewed vehicles get to fire. Captains and majors added to a platoon sized game. Fair enough. Any rules for wizards?

It strikes me as a bit strange. I thought assault rifles were supposed to operate at the same normal ranges as normal rifles, so having a reduced range is odd. Old range (same as rifle) seemed better.

But then I think its strange that they; bother to have a range for pistols, a panzerschreck/bazooka has the same range as a rifle and that a panzerfaust has the same range as an SMG.

Strange are the ways of rule writers.

18" at a notional 1/56 scale means a range of about 80ft.

So rifles shoot 40 yards (120 feet) lol.

But the important thing to remember, figures are just markers and the scale of the figures does not have to bear any relation to distances used.

But the ranges of weapons should bear some relation to each other. The BA weapon ranges are just weird.

@vvv historically WW2 era assault rifles (FG42, STG44, etc) had a less effective range (and stopping power) than infantry rifles…

@everyone else, is this the first time you've all heard about scale compression? Surely you don't think Roman legions were 20 men?

"Surely you don't think Roman legions were 20 men?"

But Bolt Action isn't pretending to simulate 6,000 men using only 20 toy figures. It purports to be a platoon level rule set, at a 1:1 figure scale. I think the previous posters' issues are not the figure scale, but rather the ground scale.

@vvv historically WW2 era assault rifles (FG42, STG44, etc) had a less effective range (and stopping power) than infantry rifles.

But the point was, they didn't need the range and stopping power of traditional rifles. Which is why everyone switched to assault rifles after war. Its not what the rifle could do, but what it was doing that is the point.

And Judge Doug, my point is that the weapon ranges in BA are completely out.

The most common panzerfaust made had a range of 60m, submachine guns guns up to 200m. So you would expect PIAT, bazooka, panzershreck to have the same range as an SMG (in the rules). Pistols as a close combat weapon and a panzerfaust about half that (allowing for a bit of movement from the firer). All very broad brush of course, I am sure that a set of skirmish rules would have ranges for each and every weapon and a range of 2 for pistols!

To be fair, it took a while for automatic rifles to overtake semiautomatic rifles in militaries; and even then, the doctrine changed from engagement at range with rifles to close quarters with carbines. Modern US doctrine is to use long range squad machine guns to suppress and M4 carbines to assault in close quarters.

Regardless, are there any 28mm skirmish games with ranged weapons that have proper ground scales? Every game I've played takes liberties for the sake of enjoyment. Playing a 28mm game on a twenty foot table with realistic ranges sounds like a waste of an afternoon to me.

But anyways, post a discussion about rules changes for a new version of a ruleset, get a series of grognards complaining about ground scales that are present in every 28mm skirmish game. TMP strikes again.

Regardless, are there any 28mm skirmish games with ranged weapons that have proper ground scales?

Certainly, and I gave you some above.

But the important thing to remember, figures are just markers and the scale of the figures does not have to bear any relation to distances used.

But the ranges of weapons should bear some relation to each other. The BA weapon ranges are just weird.

Hey wait a minute, I'm a grognard and I like BA.

Is it accurate, historical, (insert term or terms of choice) game or simulation? Of course not.

Is it a game that is designed to be fun to play in a reasonable* amount of time in a reasonable amount of space with an outcome that doesn't destroy all resemblance to WW2? Is it a results oriented as opposed to process oriented game? I believe yes, more or less, to all of the above.

Does it achieve these goals? I would say it mostly does. Does it achieve goals for which I believe it wasn't designed? Mostly not.

Heck, its your game. Unless you are playing in a tournament where such things are defined, play it the way you like.

If you believe ARs were used at the same effective range as rifles, by all means do so. If you think effective range of rifles/AS should be 36" or 48" or (insert range of choice) then just play it that way.

Its supposed to be a fun game – have some fun.

*Term undefined.

Big Red, I've always enjoyed Bolt Action too – pre-ordered V2 and have a free Japanese box coming along with the delivery too. Now if I could only finish up my Chindits before their opposition arrives soon.

I think the ranges look more reasonable if you use 10mm or 15mm miniatures, or just imagine that the actual guy represented by the miniature is a lot smaller than the miniature itself.

What submachine gun has an effective range of 200m?

I think I'll hold out for the absolutely flawless 3rd edition.

You have it. A game does not have to bear any relation to history.

Looking at combat ranges, 400m seems to be the limit of effective small arms range (being generous)

link

So rifle/assault rifle 400m (the range assault rifles were designed for) = 24 inches (or whatever scale you care to use).
SMG (generous 200m) = 12 inches
Pazefaust (60m) = 4 inches
Pistol (10m) = 0.5 inch

VVV,

"does not bear any relation to history" is a little harsh but all the points you make are valid – to a point.

Larger miniatures always have a more difficult time with figure to ground ratio. In fact miniature games are inherently inaccurate due to the figures themselves. The larger the size the more inaccurate they are as discussed on this thread and on others (see recent, ongoing GHQ discussions as one example).

With that in mind, any rule set has to make difficult design decisions, abstractions and compromises. In game terms, I believe Warlord did a pretty good job with this balancing act.

Others will disagree of course. TFL, Battlegroup and your own rules, Action All Fronts among others all take slightly or more drastically divergent approaches to balance these often conflicting characteristics. It doesn't mean one is "more" right than the others. In there own interpretation, all the above mentioned are fine games in in my opinion.

Again, if one of Bolt Action's compromises doesn't work for you, change it. Or write your own rule set – which in fact you did.

Excellent link VVV!

When to engage depends so much on the environment/situation at hand – and because once the order to open up is given, ones defensive position is also/often revealed (and then potentially subject to enemy retaliatory fires/support).

I've never played Bolt Action using any of the pts. building nor canned missions – but have enjoyed hosting and playing in scenarios that I think present interesting combat encounters with battlefield problems that the opposing sides need to contemplate.

Using VVV linked article as a basis, it's not too far of a stretch to claim that many periods covering modern armed combat could be reduced to "Red" army vs. "Blue" army encounters – where the important consideration is not all about the technological differences of the weaponry, but centers more around the training to capably use it, and the command decisions rendered by the combatants [players]. This is what I believe after 40+ years of wargaming, and what I seek to find in my own presentations, and hopefully in other games I play.

If "Shots over 100m were rare", then the rifle range in a game should probably equate to about 100m. If that. Really, try to shoot someone 100m away while they are either moving or laying down or in cover. Shooting at unobscured, stationary targets on a range that is, crucially, completely flat, is very different. I never understand why people want rifle ranges in a game to equate to the rifle's absolute maximum range. That makes no sense, and would feel completely wrong.

And I defy you to hit someone at 200m with a submachine gun.

Now that I think about it, maybe the ranges aren't so off for 28mm miniatures. That would mean a typical 6' by 4' gaming table would scale to roughly 120 yards by 80 yards, right? So a 24" rifle range (1/3 the length of the table) equates to about 40 yards. If it is typical for "most of his effective shooting had been done at a very short range – twenty-five to fifty yards", that means a 24" effective rifle range is about right.

Though, perhaps staying still to shoot should double the range of the shot, instead of making the shot more likely to hit. That would allow the closer to 100 yard range (well, about 80) when stationary and waiting for an approaching enemy, which sounds like it was about the norm.

If your table is liberally covered with terrain items the ranges are n't really an issue. We've played many games with no range modifiers at all and they've worked fine, but we do use an awful lot of terrain pieces.
How often can you see a target at more than 100 yards in the 'open' or 50 yards in a wood? Also, rules make allowances for a target lying prone, but how far can the firer see when he's lying down? (apart from on a rifle range). Try it; you may be surprised.
There again I'm such a bad shot that the target could be wearing a luminous pink suit and I'd probably still miss more often than hit at 100 yards.
TBH, I'd have liked platoon commanders to be able to activate two sections/squads, or even their whole platoon, though I can see that might make the game to far toward ugo-igo for the Bolt Action process.

Another big change is that HE hits will now be determined by explosion templates instead of rolling d3 or d6 to see how many figures are hit. You place the template (size depending on type of explosive) and every figure under the template rolls to take damage. Otherwise, I think you got all the ones I'm aware of.