"Tank Charts by Brian F. Stokes Updates/Revisions" Topic

Hello all.I started a Facebook Group that is for those who love and would like to discuss the old 1/285th Tank Charts WWII Miniatures rules by Brian F. Stokes from the late 70s and 80s a few years back.Some of the members have been working on updating and revising the rules and charts. There is going to be updates for modern vehicles.There are already charts for quite a few vehicles for the Cold War period. We are lucky to actually have Mr.Stokes join up as a member ! If you are interested why not check the Group out if you don't have an aversion to FaceBook LOL. . Just search for Tank Charts by Brian F. Stokes.

Robert

Direct Link:

link

If you don't have a copy of the rules is there a place to get them?

Thanks for the link . There is a set of the most recent revised rules in the Group.

Robert

A few months back I bought a copy of Tank Charts from Noble Knight Games. What a great set of rules! Of all the "micro armor" tank-vs-tank rules in my collection these have become my favorite. I would love to see updates and stats for cold war/modern vehicles.

Unfortunately I am one of those Luddites that has a total complete aversion to Facebook. I will not set foot in Facebook. Z-Berg can ………

So my loss I guess. Good luck with it anyway. Nice to see there is still interest in the rules.

Rufus

Thanks and no worries my friend. I was a Luddite too. But when Yahoo screwed all their groups up I had to find somewhere else. And I am still learning FB LOL. I may look for someplace else too.

Robert

Cool, just asked to join.

I just dug out my set to play a game with my grandson. He loved it. Ended up taking the whole set back home to play with his buddies. Great game system

Is anyone working on revising the actual rules or are you playing them as is just with new army lists?

Extra Crispy,
What rule revisions would you suggest they make?

Wolfhag

Revising them and cleaning up the errors. Updating the charts along with adding to the rules .

Robert

I too have an aversion to facebook….but I overcame it long enough to check it out. A fantastic collection of new files!!! Especially if you want to play tank charts with the Arab Israeli wars or cold war in Europe.

I've played many different rule sets over the years. But the ones I've had the most experience with and the ones I enjoyed the most were tank charts.

I remember back in the 80's figuring out how to convert armor thickness and angle to effective armor and starting out by checking the Panther front armor. I was pleasantly surprised that the numbers I came up with matched what was showing in tank charts..to the mm.

Of course I realize that no set of rules are perfect and that all of them represent some compromise over reality due to all the complex factors such as rounded armor, variance in penetration due to shell types, etc., etc. But when compared to the many rule other rule sets, this one was pretty solid, and gave us a bit more reality that something like WRG that simplified all armor profiles into 6 classifications. No offence to WRG…just not what I was looking for.

So I take off my hats to the gentlemen who have revived this rule set and updated it. By the way. I did up some Arab Israeli armor long time back but never used it because I didn't have any rules to use. So are there updates to tank charts that help with the issues of depicting modern warfare, other than charts for the tanks?

I still have a set of the original tank charts from 1981. My set that I used back then.

I also have my original set. They are really dog eared. Back when I was playing, I make copies of the tank charts, cut them into individual cards and laminated each one so that I didn't have to page through the book to resolve combat. Best thing I ever did and it really speeds up the game.

Mine read first printing and 1984. But then mine is the one GHQ printed :)

I played these a lot during the 80's, but I found them a bit to granular. I moved on to Command Decision. However, I am glad to see they are being revised and re-introduced. I already know that CD and TC are at different levels, so please don't feel compelled to point out this fact.

We used TC to game the scenarios at the back of Wargamer's Digest and had fun doing so. Good luck to the fine folks that have gone to the trouble to get these rules back out.

If you like Tank Charts (and yes, I have them … the GHQ-endorsed version), but you long to see them fully supported, updated and perfected, then I suggest you look at Panzer-War by TMP's own Mobius.

panzer-war.com

They are at the same level of granularity. IIRC Mobius has even, on occasion, said that Tank Charts was one of the rulesets that he examined in creating his rules. But the research is MUCH better and MUCH more complete, and improvements to the game mechanisms means it runs smoother, even at a fine level of granularity.

Even if you never play the rules, they are worth having just for the quality and scope of research into armor facings and armor effectiveness for such an amazing variety of WW2 vehicles. To those of us who actually care about the differences in armor between a T-34m1940 and a T-34-85, or a Pz IIIj vs. a Pz IIIm, these rules are like buried treasure!

As you may observe in TMP discussions, Mobius is very methodical in evaluating available sources of information to extract as much real data as can be found. He is also technically savvy on ballistics and the physics of armor vs. projectiles. It all winds up consolidated into his rules.

And he gives them away for free! What a guy. ;-)

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

I really like Panzer War and I think the without a doubt, the time, effort, science, research, calculation, etc. that went into the Panzer War rules make it far superior to a great many other rule sets. It's very innovative and sets a standard for technical accuracy. That said, there are few if any compromises which means there's a lot of work to process the game steps and that slows the game down. I'm working on some ideas in a spreadsheet where I can cut down on the steps(time) necessary to calculate hit, penetration, and damage without sacrificing the calculations being made in the game. Don't know if it's possible, but I'm working on it.

ACWBill. Hi Bill, I also played CD and had many enjoyable games. And I've infantry skirmish games and they are fun as well. My first love has been 1 to 1 scale on tanks at range, and that's why I keep going back for more. Doesn't take anything away from Skirmish rules or CD, just a different type of fun.

Heya Dan.Thanks. There are some improvements for Modern warfare in the works too .

Robert

Question -
Is Brian Stokes still in the hobby? I never see any posts from him, my interest is from being an owner of his Nappy rules. Thanks

DanLewisTN,
I'm pretty familiar with the Panzer War rules and I have digitally converted a number of rules and used spreadsheets for calculations. I used the same material he has to program a spreadsheet to get MPI for weapons including range estimation errors for the first shot, simulate bracketing for successive shots and other error budget variables.

I just looked over the rules. The "To Hit" modifier chart has 21 entries of which there are 12 categories. A drop down box could be used for each of the 12 categories and add up the values. I'm not really sure using drop down boxes for each shot would be quicker than eyeballing it.

The penetration tables have a lot of stuff but each one has only a few options and variables. Again, not sure if this would be worth it.

I've developed play aids to determine who gets the first shot based on situational awareness, turret rotation speed and crew effectiveness but you could not use them for his turn sequence.

I think the 80/20 rule applies to this game where 80% of the time it would be pretty simple and not much of a change from your last turn of moving or shooting. It's that 20% of details and exceptions that can make you crazy just like any other game with good detail using charts. With Panzer War I don't think there is much you can do with it other than play as is.

Maybe Mobius has some suggestions?

Wolfhag

As far as I know John .

Robert

Mr.Stokes is working on a set of "Fast Play" rules now for TC.

Robert

He is now posting the charts for it.

Robert

Robert, how will these become available? Btw, I've avoided Facebook so far, and would hope some other methods for downloading (or linking – Dropbox, Google perhaps) might be made, if at all possible, for any of these resources?

They have been posted in the Facebook Group right now. I'm not sure how or when they will be made available outside that right now.

Robert

The Fast Play rules are coming along. Brian has posted the rules and Charts for early war Eastern Front and North Africa.*Grin*

Robert

Played Tank Charts back in '84. Our group added Individual Morale rules governing when the crew of an immobilized vehicle would abandon it and revised Unit Morale rules simplifying the existing morale rules. Played weekly for about a year until our group switched to 2nd edition Panzer War (we had Steve as an occasional consultant). Note that the 2nd edition of Panzer War was quite a bit simpler than the current 3.x edition.

Note that the 2nd edition of Panzer War was quite a bit simpler than the current 3.x edition.

You can partially thank Tony, the M60 gunner, for that. Insisting that tanks can fire at more than one or two targets in 60-75 seconds.

So in Panzer War a tank with a historic ROF of 5-6 RPM can fire at at 2-4 targets in 60-75 seconds? That's a brilliant – dare I say "realistic" concept.

Are there any other games out there that use a similar system?

Wolfhag

Try Force on Force rules
Fire is reduces as a new target is selected

I will have to check this out. I played TC in the late 1980s and while not my favorite rules I found them to be very interesting.

I have a original set that I got around 1979. By 1981, I had all of the expansions. This was the main set of rules that we played at Fort Riley.
Always considered these quality items and still have them. They made great research source material even if you were not able to play with them.

I'd like a copy, too, but not on Facebook.

I have and played the original set from GHQ and would love a new set but again not on facebook.

Old post but I'll jump in anyway. I know both Brian S (Tank Charts) and Steve L (Panzer War) personaly and have gamed both sets with them. Here's a few thoughts and observations…

Brians Tank Charts was groundbreaking and there was really nothing like it out there at the time. It was never intended to be an infantry game but grew from a game for his group to being published. It was my first "historical" miniature game played. I found out about the Los Angeles "Airport cons" and went there to play in Brians game, 1981-82? In fact I just found pictures from the game! This was with the old colored card charts, before GHQ! GHQ was really just a consolidation of the 5 or so sets or updates. Played them for many year! Brian moved on to other areas of gaming and wrote a Napoleonic rule set the name escapes me…

Steves Panzer War was years later and developed more as an all round combined arms complete rules. I also played many games at the same convention with Steve, Gary A, George P, and more using them. Fine set that Steve has constantly refined. Funny that I was a "diehard" Tank Charts guy and used to "poo poo" Panzer war until they got me to try them!

Bottom line is for their day these sets were cutting edge and broke ground for all that followed! You cant judge them against games that came 10 to 30 years later. I'm forever indebted to both Brian and Steve for all the good times and fun I had with their rules and thank them for the hard work they've put into their games. Nobody gets rich writing rules, name one if you can! They do it out of love for the hobby. Both these Gentlemen are still around in the hobby out on the West Coast. I will soon post more old pictures on my site of them and the games!
Bill W, www.HistoricalHobbies.com

This is Brian running a TC game in 1984 at GAMEX in Los Angeles.

These look interesting, i will enjoy studying all the material. While i dislike facebook i am able to quickly logon, download and exit without too much trauma.
I remember 1984 very well, WRG Armour & Infantry gamese were normally played then.

I submitted an add a few days ago to the FB group with no response, I'm not normally a FB person anyway. Is there anyone here who could share a copy of the revised rules? I was able to get the revised charts on FB.

thanks!!

I have a copy of the scanned rules, I am uncertain if they have been reformatted, they look pretty old, is that what you wanted,