"Early French Grenadier & Voltigeur Plumes" Topic

Think I already know the answer, but hoping I'm wrong.

I bought some early French Grenadiers in bicornes thinking I could use them as early French Voltigeurs by painting the plumes green or green-and-yellow instead of red.

However, the plumes are not upright but "droopy" instead, and I cannot find any pictures of Voltigeurs in bicornes with "droopy" plumes. I can only find early French Grenadiers in bicornes with "droopy" plumes.

So, in order to use these Grenadiers as Voltigeurs, I'm gonna have to cutoff all the droopy plumes and replace them with upright plumes (or pompoms), aren't I?

Remind us of the source and scale of the figures.

Tell us it was not EBay and China….droopy is what you might expect then…

No, not ebay or China. The plumes are very similar to these Eureka figures. The figures are NOT Eureka, this is just the best picture I can find showing the "droopy" plumes.

I'm pretty sure I cannot use these plumes as Voltigeurs.

I may just paint them as Grenadiers exactly as they were intended, and buy some Voltigeur with appropriate headgear.

TMP link

I agree haven't seen voltiguers sporting drooping plumes but I think you could use them as carabiniers.

If it were me, my voltiguers have been out in the rain a lot….

The droppy plumes belong to the early era i.e. Revolutionary Period and there were no voltigeur companies formally established. I use that figure for Egypt and true French Rev period with no voltigeur companies. Depending on your source, it is 1804 or 5 when voligeur companies formed. So I use 9 company French that includes one gren and one volt for 1806 period and after (until the 6 company bn comes into play). Before that, 8 center companies and one gren. Its great to have that casting because it gives the Revolutionary period the right look. Stripe the pants!

It is called a "Falling Plume" and that is the best term to Google its origin. I always think of it as immediately post 1815 as it, overnight, became universal.

Before that I think of Brunswickers and Austrians or senior Officers of British cavalry and always was suspicious of any illustration suggesting earlier use. I thought 1820-35 but, no, it did indeed exist a decade or two earlier, I now realise….for grenadiers though!

Thanks for all the answers so quickly. I won't try to hack off the "falling plumes" and convert the figures to voltigeurs. That's not something I'm comfortable doing anyway.

BTW, the photo I linked to shows Eureka early carabiniers. The figures I bought are definitely early grenadiers from another manufacturer. I was just trying to point out the plumes. The Eureka photo was the best I could find.

The droppy plumes belong to the early era i.e. Revolutionary Period…

How late might line grenadiers still be wearing the falling plume on their bicornes?

Is it possible some grenadiers might still wear this plume as late as 1805?

Let me stress again…the falling plume became instead an increasing fashion in military circles. Anything earlier than the 1820s you must be suspicious and sure the portraiture is contemporary.

They did exist of course. Perhaps best known is the Brunswicker units (eg Leib Grade or Hussars), but the style was unusual pre 1815.

We may be talking about different things, falling feathers vs horse hair plumes designed to hang forward instead of back as in cavalry helmets.

I suspect the error is mine.

See below, the first is horse hair, the second (central right figure) is feathers…end result is very different. The latter is still used to this day on bicornes, for ceremonial dress.

Ooh Rah -- Don't know that I have a resource that would say when the "falling plume" no longer prevalent -- but I am looking. But as I am doing so, I find "Uniforms of the French Rev Wars" by Haythornthwaite and Warner. Plate 43 is grenadier in a bearskin and the falling plume. Interesting. According to this book, upright plumes also seen -- one source in tricolor. And you see this example in Ospreys book on French Rev inf i.e. grenadier in bearskin with an erect tricolor plume. Again, I've made a bright line rule for my collection -- 1806 and after my bns have grenadiers and voltigeurs and no falling plumes.

Esquire -- I don't have your book by Haythornthwaite & Warner about the Revolutionary Wars. I'm working on the period from 1804 and later when the bicorn was prevalent among line infantry.

I do have Haythornthwaite's Osprey book Napoleon's Line Infantry, MAA #141. Plate A2 shows "Infantryman in campaign dress, 1795" who is in bicorn with drooping plume.

Page 10 says (emphasis mine), "An order of 26 October 1801 confirmed the use of the bicorn, but grenadiers were allowed to wear fur caps, usually for parade or combat, the bicorn with red plume serving at other times."

Also page 10 says, "…on 21 June 1805 Gen Vandamme ordered '…only round pompoms and forbid the use of those as worn by the 57th, which place an undue strain on the hats and give generally a bad effect.' "

Funcken's The Napoleonic Wars, Part 1 seems to cover only the period after Napoleon declared himself emperor, 18 May 1804 and later. In the infantry section, there are no depictions of grenadiers in bicornes with falling plume.

Dempsey's Napoleon's Soldiers shows paintings of the Grand Armee of 1807. In the line infantry section, once again there are no paintings of grenadiers in bicorne with falling plume.

(edited) All of this leads me to believe that grenadiers in bicorn with falling plume would not be out of place for 1805. They may have appeared in 1806, but probably rarely. By 1807, I would think they were all replaced by then.

That's all I got. Still looking for something more definitive, though.

Deadhead -- Not sure, but I suspect the falling plume on the grenadier bicorn is horsehair, like your first example. Also, the pictures are not the best quality, but Haythornthwaite's Osprey book Napoleon's Line Infantry, MAA #141 has a few contemporary drawings that seem to show the bicorn with falling plume. Page 14 depicts Gen. Duhesme leading a company of grenadiers at Charleroi. A grenadier on the right side of the drawing seems to be wearing a bicorn with falling plume.

According to Haythornthwaite's 'Uniforms of the French Revolutionary Wars – 1789 to 1802' the falling plumes were indeed horsehair. In the description of a plate showing infantry privates in 1793 he notes "The authorized shoulder-straps were blue with red piping, but it appears that the grenadiers' red epaulettes were worn indiscriminately, as was the drooping red horsehair plume."

However, I could be wrong but I don't think this type of plume was still in use by 1804.

I set them aside for now. I wish the plumes were not wrapped around the musket barrels. Hacking off just the plumes without damaging the muskets will be tricky.

Here are some of the many examples of plumes used in the Army of the Republic. I'll put these pictures in multiple posts

and these from the same picture:

Then we have these

Paul :)

And these

Paul :)

And finally, these from Herbert Knotel and Christopher Warner (Haythornthwaite)

Paul :)

Paul/Dibble -- Lots of great pictures! Thanks for posting. You have included several examples of bicorns with falling plumes, just like my figures. The pictures with falling plumes are dated between 1794-1800, so falling plumes for grenadiers in 1805 is looking less and less possible.

SJDonovan:

…I don't think this type of plume was still in use by 1804.

It certainly looks that way! Thanks again for your information.

Ooh Rah

Paul/Dibble -- Lots of great pictures! Thanks for posting. You have included several examples of bicorns with falling plumes, just like my figures. The pictures with falling plumes are dated between 1794-1800, so falling plumes for grenadiers in 1805 is looking less and less possible.

The pictures I posted above were just examples of the types of plumes used during the Republic.

These below are original types of bicorn as would be used at Austerlitz 1805. I posted these pictures a while ago on another site.

link

Paul :)

And here is another picture I posted elsewhere that shows a drooped plume worn by some at Austerlitz (Haythornthwaite) though It isn't made clear which regiment's grenadier company still retained them.

Paul :)

Love that last plate – looks like a Haythornwaite book I don't have (yet).

Thanks Paul

Marc at work

It's from a 1980's bi-monthly magazine called Military Illustrated 'Past and Present', which for a time was an excellent magazine until after about the 60th edition something happened and it took a lingering nose-dive.

The issue that the above picture is from, is No.15 October/November 1988. There was another plate accompanying the one above which included the Leger. I have included in this post.

The following issue covered the Russians with the same style and layout.

If anyone want's to see the Russian ones, I'll post them too.

PS The artist was Gerry Embleton.

Paul :)

Military Illustrated was brilliant. Slowly went off in quality and one day was just gone, with my annual subscription already paid too.

Haythornwaite though? Surprised. Not his style. Mike Chappell the artist? Best artwork I have ever seen from that period if so

Paul -- Wow. Awesome pictures, again! Much indebted to you for posting these, especially the one labeled French Infantry 1805-06 (emphasis mine).

And here is another picture I posted elsewhere that shows a drooped plume worn by some at Austerlitz (Haythornthwaite) though It isn't made clear which regiment's grenadier company still retained them.

Item (e) in your plate is exactly what my figures look like: "Grenadier's bicorn with old-style drooping plume." So, I can use these figures for Austerlitz era…that's good because I was not looking forward to cutting off the drooping plumes and replacing with pompoms or upright plumes.

Not sure which 1805-1806 unit I will use the figures for. I'm thinking it will be some regiment I can find no pictures for, and the regiment has some unit history dating back to the Revolutionary period. The assumption is that such a regiment might still retain some of the older uniform features.

Thanks Paul. He has a lovely clear style. Wonder if they ever found there way into a book

I don't Know if these illustrations were used elsewhere either. If they haven't they should be.

So! Does anyone want to see the Russians at Austerlitz plates?

Paul :)

Yes please…pretty please indeed…….

Well here they are!

Paul :)

Wonderful pictures for an Austerlitz project. I will save these in a folder and refer to them often. Thank you very much for posting them!

Indeed……….

You don't have any more I suppose…of anything from our era. Great quality

deadhead

You don't have any more I suppose…of anything from our era. Great quality

Like what exactly?

I wish I could say with any accuracy that I have. I have many, many Magazines, Books, files etc, that in reality it's hard to know what I have. I post the easy accessible and popular images and info for the perusal and help to members on this and another site but to find other more obscure artwork and/or information that I remember I have somewhere is literally a daunting task.

Paul :)

Dragging dead horses back to the stables____

>>I won't try to hack off the "falling plumes" and convert the figures to voltigeurs. That's not something I'm comfortable doing anyway.

Recent evidence shows that many more 'eclaireurs' or scout units were formed, as were tirailleurs, both among revolutionary French from militias and regulars; and a green drooping plume (a la Italian Carabanieri) WAS an option (in gaming terms).

These preceded the establishment of 1799-1800 'scouts' who also adopted the slender and low profile shako as a distinction; and the all important formalisation in 1803-04-05 of 'voltigeurs' throughout French infantry.

[Unless artwork has been completely misappropriated and their really just Italians…]
regards d

>>How late might line grenadiers still be wearing the falling plume on their bicornes?

>>Is it possible some grenadiers might still wear this plume as late as 1805?

-To add:
No- the plumes are cock feathers, not horsehair.
Yes- the plumes could be seen on post-revolution units until such time as the Consulate could afford to replace equipment (both bicorne or plumes).
No- by 1805 I have no reliable source that shows any French regular unit in bicorne them save one- The Tirailleur du Po (battalion).
Yes- Seems the falling plumes in green were adopted by the legere fraternity widely though not exclusively, and these added to new shakoes (1801 and later) seem to have been common for chasseurs and some carabiniers.
These are shown on the artists pics above by mr dibble.

[*] I have seen dubious prints on Pin8rest showing right hand side form plumes on various infantry describing, but not drawn, as French. Frankly I dismiss them as third level crap.

[**] I think the modern equivalents used by judges, dignataries and GG or others cannot be symbolised as the same as common soldiers plumes, which citing their current use means.
d

That is interesting. I thought the bicorne lingered far longer. Isn't there a quote from Spain around 1810 saying "finally, no more hats, no more white uniforms" or similar.

So manny of my books refer to the french wearing bicornes through to 1807 in europe

Dave,

Do you not consider the Otto Manuscript to be a reliable source? Also, Colonel Schobert's order book talks about dispersing the chapeaux of the voltigeurs and 7e company with the second battalion companies of the regiment on Nov 11, 1807. link

8e Ligne Otto Manuscript.

Michael

Yes a very good source

>>That is interesting. I thought the bicorne lingered far longer. Isn't there a quote from Spain around 1810 saying "finally, no more hats, no more white uniforms" or similar.

Marc,
No question about it.
However, the OP is about plumes of elite companies primarily.
That is what I've addressed.
The quote is Suchet 1809 (a review of troops~ or report of).

The Grande Armée of 1805 largely remained in cantons in 'Germany' over Winter and later while 'diplomacy' took over- few returned to France. Thus their uniform in 1806 remained the same till after Auerstadt-Jena, lacking major replacement except as noted- captured equipment supplies.

1806 drew into 1807 and many continued the same way thus after Eylau and further 'diplomacy', the Grande Armée hadn't been home in 'depot' over 2 years at least.

Thereby you can see why '1808' became a watershed year for uniform/ army reform in all its' incarnations.
regards davew

>>Dave,
>>Do you not consider the Otto Manuscript to be a reliable source? Also, Colonel Schobert's order book talks about dispersing the chapeaux of the…

Michael
Not disputing the source at all (Did I?). Again OP was about plumes, and 'falling' ones at that. What I would dispute is that a single 'artistic' representation by Haythornthwaite, without sources, noting 'old style worn plume' to be extrapolated to actually being present in 1805.

I believe none of any of the throng of contemporary French volumes published during the 60s-80s ever shows this.
What date is that Otto drawing depiction?

On the turn of events that brought 'white' 1806 uniforms to certain regiments, I have no issues.

Great to read in the link Marc supplied that confirmation of Colonel Schobert the 3e de ligne Voltigeurs (all 3 companies/ 3 bns) obtaining new shakoes in Nov 1807 and their chapeaux being redistributed amongst the remaining battalions fusiliers. (This in preparation of their return to garrison duty in Poland).

I've recently begun completion of the 3ebon/ 3e and have done so in a deliberately 'uncool' campaign style mess of uniforms compared to the 1st and 2nd.
It is recorded elsewhere by P. Charrié @ early Empire that for the 3eme grenadiers, the 1er Bon had bonnet a poil, while the 2e Bon had shakoes.

This is the only 3 battalion regiment that existed in Soults IV Corps (and held Telnitz as long as it could).
Regards davew

Thanks Dave. I got myself confused by your wording earlier when you said

" No- by 1805 I have no reliable source that shows any French regular unit in bicorne them save one- The Tirailleur du Po (battalion)."

But you have clarified that to mean no units with falling plumes

Thanks

It was important to me as my early period troops are in bicornes. I much prefer shakos but have raised bicorne troops for accuracy

Regards

Marc

>>shows any French regular unit in bicorne them save one-

Sorry Marc in my hasty typing I omitted both subject (falling plumes) and identifier "in bicorne _on_ them save one-".

Plenty on shakos as a standard, TdPo only on bicorne.
I've done just the opposite to you- designed a bicorne based Corps and therefore built up both repaints (Spanish fusiliers) and remoulds (elites and overalls) of French fusiliers. Also head swaps, like the Perrys plastics, lots of head swaps/ reshaping.

The Spanish fit perfectly, don't understand why Minifigs makers at time didn't just extend them to fit 'early/ REv' French and be done with it. I have.

In suppressing a large number of shako (line) units, I had to remake many in light infantry form anyway. Therefore I have one Division primarily in Shako and other in bicorne.

As it happens there isn't complete information known on units, so where this occurs, I use the 'extrapolation' process I expounded on elsewhere to 'create' them using artistic license.

cheers d

Dave,

Thanks for the clear up and the great information on the 3e Ligne with the bonnets. I figured that by 1809 if there were any bearskins left it would be used for the first battalion. Since I paint mostly 6mm I like to have big battalions of 72 men per battalion it is nice to be able to identify the unit by their certain regimental shako/bearskin plumes/cords.

I see you have information on the Marshal Soult's corps in 1805. By chance do you have any SHD documents on the 26e Leger? The regiment is a favorite of mine after reading Colonel Pouget's memories and the fascinating amount of battles this regiment fought in.

Thank you
Michael

Michael and others-
Here I am about to eat crow, down crumbs from humble-pie and eat my own shoe soles, and if the source is believable, back track on 'evidence'.

Going through my slides this one shows a plate; I retouched it for colouration as the strong incandescent lights turned the whole thing too yellow-orange in what was at a times a very dimly lit (scattered lighting) chateau (and yes it is literally made of stone!).

by DaveW, on Flickr

My description is:
Musée de l'emperi. Salon-de-Provence.
Original period artwork.

Slide w22 Chateau de l'emperi Salon-de-Provence 1984.
French Grande Armée 1806.
Captioned:
SOLDATS FRANCAIS dessinés d'aprês nature en Allemagne par P.W. Schwartz, en 1806.

A gauche, un dragon démonté avec son porte-manteau sur le sac; infanterie de ligne et lêgére aux uniformes disparates.

Cette représentation saisie sur le vif, donne une idée três rêelle de l'état des troupes aprés une campagne.

"Cohue å 5 heurs du soir, masse invincible å 5 heures du matin, telle est la Grande Armée".

Trans [dw]-
"A crowd (rabble?) at 5 of the evening, an invincible mass at 5 o'clock in the morning, such is the Grande Armée".

The epaulette to the left is, yellow, with red crescent. I'd need to get the slide collection out to see if I'd actually captured a full form photo of that as well.

The right hand figure tells all. Is it horsehair or feathers? See the full size photo at Flickr,

-/-