"TMP = Misogynists R Us?" Topic

Winston Smith hit the nail on the head. It isn't the worst I've seen, but some of the folks here are openly misogynistic and make no bones about it.

-Will

Hafen,

Oh, you are so right! Sorry my bad. WeeSparky, I understand that, but my point still is this, for a wargaming site do we really need a board for nudes and semi-nudes? Especially if the question keeps being raised on how the site treats women.

do we really need a board for nudes and semi-nudes?

Wasn't that done to compartmentalize it? Which just make it LOOK worse. I would say that I don't know how that really came to pass (rather, don't REMEMBER SPECIFICALLY), but I'm sure someone will be along shortly to tell me it was poll-mandated.

The irony is that most of the "nudes" posted on the nude board aren't, and frequently they have more "clothing" and/or other coverage that you'll see in your typical newspaper, magazine, women's catalog, etc., etc..

I know this was asked in The Lounge, but don't recall seeing a response.

Does TMP need a "safe zone" to protect people from being offended, or should TMP in its entirety be declared a "safe zone"?

I hear its all the rage at many colleges.

The NFSW work wasn't a 'safe zone' issue; the problem was that TMPers were browsing from work and getting into trouble due to some posts with 'questionable' imagery. And on the balance the images might not be all that bad, BUT it is easier to have a seperate board to avoid than to 'talk it over' with the company HR department.

-Will

I'm sure someone will be along shortly to tell me it was poll-mandated.

I don't remember specifically, but new boards are usually created after a community vote.

If women were offended by nudity then pictures of naked(ish) figures should be hidden from them.

Anybody remember a couple years ago when comparisons were done between the magazines for men and women for nudity and sexual content? Turns out the non-porn men's magazines (Maxim, GQ, FHM, Men's Fitness) contained much less nudity and explicit sexual content than the equivalent magazines for women. Cosmopolitan even had multiple instances of photoes of exposed female nipple (a HUGE no no by puritanical publishing guidelines her in the US). Has Cosmo ever been targeted or admonished for portrayal of the body as much as Maxim or FHM? It's not a double standard because only men can be sexist, men automatically get aroused by anything with photos of girls, and all men are rapists. Men are pigs, kill all men, someone save all the women! Women and children first!

for a wargaming site do we really need a board for nudes and semi-nudes?

Aren't such figures part of the hobby, particularly on the fantasy and sci-fi side?

Especially if the question keeps being raised on how the site treats women.

It is not as if the board is limited to female nudity.

If women were offended by nudity then pictures of naked(ish) figures should be hidden from them.

Again, this is NOT why the NSFW board was created on TMP; the problem was MEN getting into trouble at work because they ran afoul of the adult content filters at work. Men complained, not women.

It's not a double standard because only men can be sexist, men automatically get aroused by anything with photos of girls, and all men are rapists. Men are pigs, kill all men, someone save all the women! Women and children first!

I'd challenge you to find an mainstream feminist (ie, not Andrea Dworkin) who actually claims this.

-Will

I think someone up there forgot they were on TMP and not reddit.

If you can't even have a conversation without getting angry then I think Bill has his answer to the original question.

Who is getting angry?

Mysogyny? No.

I doubt anyone here truly hates women and wishes to oppress them, roll back their rights, and revert them to little more than chattel owned by virtuous and superior men.

We do have some chauvinists here though. Certainly no better or worse than chauvinists we all run across here and there in our lives.

I would offer that we are all a little chauvinistic, in much the same manner we all a little racist, sexist, xenophobic, and biased. We all have an "-ist", of some type in our personalities.

Is coarse language used? Yes. Yes it is.

Does this somehow make us the villains of the story? I think not.

In the movie Suicide Squad (PG-13) the word "pussy" was used by various characters (including a woman!) several times. If that type of language is considered suitable for consumption by 13 year olds in the US, then we are probably in the clear.

We are here. We are wargamers. We braved the fields of harsh and insulting language. If someone wishes to join us in our endeavours, they must navigate the same battlefields we have. If they lack the intestinal fortitude to endure some coarse language and bawdy jokes, they have no place here.

"I would offer that we are all a little chauvinistic, in much the same manner we all a little racist, sexist, xenophobic, and biased".

Speak for yourself, but not me, or others.

You are without bias or prejudice?

I think you are engaging in some self-deception if that is your position.

Absolutely Weasel.

"In the movie Suicide Squad (PG-13) the word "pussy" was used by various characters (including a woman!) several times. If that type of language is considered suitable for consumption by 13 year olds in the US, then we are probably in the clear.

We are here. We are wargamers. We braved the fields of harsh and insulting language. If someone wishes to join us in our endeavours, they must navigate the same battlefields we have. If they lack the intestinal fortitude to endure some coarse language and bawdy jokes, they have no place here." (Mitochondria statement)

I found this thread recently and told myself many times to avoid it. The above statements are interesting. The "P" word reduces some people down to 1 word -- a derogatory word for their genitalia. If people on this board started using the "D" word (I think a variation of the name Richard as well)that reduces some people down to their genitalia, would some people be insulted if that is not their first name. Would the "D" word become acceptable to use because by being on TMP, we have "the intestinal fortitude to endure some coarse language and bawdy jokes".

Being either a daughter, sister, mother, wife and gaming group member to the gentlemen in my life, I neither address them nor refer to them using the "D"/"P" word. If someone uses that "D" or "P" word to refer to any of these ladies and gentlemen in my presence, I will surely make it known that I find it offensive, derogatory and unacceptable.

If anyone thinks it is acceptable to refer to himself/herself or call his/her spouse/sibling/parent/spouse/gaming buddies or even allowing other to call him/her using either derogatory genitalia term, please say so publically. In this way, others may feel comfortable to use either of them to address you/sibling/parent/children because it would not insult you and after all, the words are just "coarse language" and may be part of a "bawdy jokes". Also please feel free to modify your TMP name to include "a.k.a" the "P" word or "D" word or both "P" and "D" word if applicable -- don't want to leave anyone out.

That is my opinion of course and I only speak for myself.

I consider people from Vichy France as surrender monkeys. If I have offended any 70+ year old wargamers from France I apologize.

Back to Bill's question

Do you think TMP has a misogyny problem?

TMP link
Case proven

TMP reader 2.

South Park: bigger longer and uncut had age limit 11 in Canada ( as well as most Scandinavian countries) so if uncle er. Motherer and Barbra Streisand is sutible for 11 year olds. I think it should be for grown wargamers too.

I'm going to try to be more specific, without getting in trouble with the editor.

If during a thread in "Wargaming Conventions", someone states his 11 years old daughter is making trees to sell at Historicon or someone says his wife has baked brownies to bring to Fall-In/Little Wars to thank all the GMs, then someone replies with -- take a deep breath, this is only an example, "I look forward to seeing the 'PxxxY' " and the word does not end with cat and neither of their names are that.

Gunfreak, if I came upon the thread and read that, I would politely say that I found the use of that 'P' word to name the young lady or someone's wife offensive, derogatory and unacceptable. I would not remain silent. I would address that to the person who made that statement of course. I would not resort to calling him/her by some other derogatory word either. There is no need to escalate the issue further. If the person truly believes the usage of that offensive word is okay, it is his/her choice to continue to use those derogatory words and there is nothing I can do about it other then expressing my opinion the next time I encounter the situation.

If enough people stand up to say the usage of those type of words are unacceptable on TMP, then perhaps, we can create the type of environment on TMP that is more constructive to hobby focus.

That is all Gunfreak.

Petite-burgeoism at its worst.

Thank you for reminding me about the thread title itself and the fact that a few posters have asked for a women to address the question.

I am speaking only for myself and no one else. My opinions are based on my own experiences on TMP -- I have been reading TMP since between 2011 and 2012 I think.

Anyhow, do I agree with the statement "TMP = Misogynists R Us?". No, because if 'Us' refers to everyone on TMP, I can assure you I'm not a misogynist and I do not hate men/males either. I don't think TMP equates to everyone either.

I view each person as an individual. what one person says, is not what everyone says.

Do I think there is a misogyny problem on TMP? From the threads that I have read on the boards that I visit, I have not encounter many misogynists. Just like everything else in life, there are all sorts of people and issues that can be found in any gender, race, religion, country and so on.

It is okay to have differences of opinions and it is okay to debate/discuss our differences, but do it constructively and maturely.

Lastly, if someone makes a comment or states something that a reader feels to be misogynistic, but the reader does not express that he/she found the statement disturbing and does not confront the poster, do I automatically think that the reader is also misogynistic? I would have to say I must remain fair-minded and not jump to conclusion. So my answer would be no.

An important question is, will misogyny be tolerated on TMP? Each poster/reader must decide for his/herself that and what will you do about it. What sort of environment do you want to present to everyone here, everyone just discovering TMP and miniatures gaming?

I hope I answered the question. As I've stated earlier, I speak only for myself and no one else.

I just remembered about the complaint button. Yes, I can click on that as well and the editors and owner of this website can decide the course of action.

I find it a pointless to argue with racists, bigots, misogynists and people who are intolerant of others. I would rather spend my time doing hobby stuff or gaming.

I have nothing more to say so bye.

My point tmp reader2. Was that censoring words everybody knows is a childish thing.

If someone says to another tmp member: I'm going to your wife. Then that members should get a very long doghouseing.

How ever if someone says: me sideways that's a fantastic looking unit of knights. Then that's not the same.

Single words are not bad on thieir own. And randomly selecting what are bad/dangerous words is silly.

Hi Gunfreak,

I totally agree with you that each usage should be view in context. In the example I gave, that situation I would be pressing the complaint button and address my opinion to the person who used it, but I would try to be very civil to him/her about it.

I'm not talking about the '…cat' or '…foot'. Each usage should be reviewed in context. Just as a few people actions do not define TMP.

I never had cable growing up and I continue to watch public TV so I didn't quite understand if I interpreted your South Park reference correctly.

Basileus66, yes I could have done a better job to highlight the issue. 2 wrongs don't make a right. I still need to work in translating sarcasm properly.

I apologize for letting my disappointment get the best of me.

And i totally agree with your example. It's is the context. And in the context if your example it unexceptable.

To prevent unnecessary war of words with certain people driven by hatred of my gender, who may approach me with ill intension, I will no longer be using this TMP name.

I will still be using TMP. I have to paint up about 130 some figures for Halloween games I'm hosting, so I will be off doing that for a while as well as cooling off my temper.

I have given my view as a wargamer and TMP user as asked. This is my last post on TMP as TMP Reader2.

Nah, don't worry. I am being picky.

Is someone harassing you, TMP Reader2?

Hi Bill,
No, I have neither been harassed nor bullied in this thread at this point. I have decided to stop using my TMP name for multiple reasons.
1. I made the mistake of bringing up an issue not on the immediate/current TOPIC subject. I found it offensive and some readers may not. It is okay to disagree and discuss it in a civilize manner, but not right under the current TOPIC subject. Why? Let's admit it. There are people who are misogynist on this board, but there are lots who are not. I don't want people who become involve in the discussion to be mistaken as misogynists when they express views different than mine, just because I have identified myself as a female. Sure there might be misogynist(s) that may take the opportunity to inflate their egos and go ballistic. I don't want the extreme actions of a few to define the rest of TMP – especially under the TOPIC subject.

2. I have answered a request by a TMP member for a female gamer to answer the question of "TMP = Misogynist R US" and a few more.

3. It would be naïve to think that I can continue to use the name TMP Reader2. I don't want to have to guess at the intentions of posters who reply to my future posts. Lastly, I'm old and tired of pointless arguments. If it's not one thing, it's another. Let's just accept some people may find something offensive while others do not. Move on. I have 130 miniatures I need to paint for a game I'm hosting; a book titled "Authentic Narrative of the Death of Lord Nelson" to read; and campaign documents for a miniatures game I have to send out to my gaming group. A Lot of things to do and I want to enjoy my retirement. I appreciate you asking. Bye.

Well that was quite the whirlwind in the bottle.

It is still my opinion that people are using the term, "mysogynist" incorrectly, but whatever.

There is definitely an old man "get off my lawn" quality to a lot of the content on the boards. That can come off as anti a lot of things.

Agreed …

I don't go to the board with nude figures … I don't paint those so they have no interest to me. As I and others have said, if a topic does not interest me I don't go to it.

And if I or anyone wants to see "nudes" there are a lot of places online or otherwise to go… Yes ?

I don't know if "misogynist" is the proper term for what is going on here. However, lets admit it "guys" … playing with "toys", soldiers or otherwise is really not something many females do. With some exceptions of course. But the vast majority here are males. And that vast majority like "females" … It's genetic …

So yeah, probably somethings may be said that is not something you'd hear at a Baby Shower. But more like in a Locker Room … It's genetic …

My friend's wife is into "quilting" … making quilts. And a might fine job she does. But I wouldn't go to a site on that topic. And be offend because they said something that may be considered something a male wouldn't say or like ? Come on guys … boys will boys … again … it's genetic … it's how he keep the human race going. We just have to remain somewhat "civil" when dealing with the "gentler" sex. It's expected and in the standard of Western culture.

But again … this is a site about playing with toy soldiers. Some females may find that not a very "Appealing" thing that they are looking of in a male … yes ?

a female poster is going to change her tmp name for fear of getting attacked when posting about wargame subjects.

in other words, dont be a female poster on tmp if you don't want to get posts which aim to offend because you are female.

that tells me that tmp is not women friendly which is a shame

A female poster is going to change her username in a very vocal and dramatic manner because she "fears" harrassment.

Nevermind that no proof of previous "harrassment" has been provided and that removing offending posts and posters is a easy as clicking the, "block" button.

Tempest in a teapot.

I agree Mitchondira … and yes … Tempest in a teapot.
…

How can TMP be misogynistic when it is seemingly populated by a bunch of whiny, 12-year old girls?

You're literally using 'girls' as a derogatory term, which is pretty clearly misogyny.

well said Scorpio.

You're literally using 'girls' as a derogatory term, which is pretty clearly misogyny.

They're not even aware of it when they do it. Or, worse, they're aware and don't care, as long as they get to tweak some PC SJW noses.

I asked my cat if cats want to eat birds and he told he that its just birds being overly sensitive.

You're literally using 'girls' as a derogatory term, which is pretty clearly misogyny.

That would depend on whether 12-year-old girls are more whiny than 12-year-old boys.

I don't have children, so I don't have an opinion.

(Though I have taught 12-year-olds in Sunday School many times. Nobody was whiny. Maybe they were on their good behavior!)

Using "girls" as a derogatory term is hardly mysoginistic.

Just put down the gender studies textbook, go look in the mirror and ask yourself if you are doing something worthwhile with your life.

Some serious self-pity professional level victimhood going on here.

If you are going be offended by everything you hear and recharacterize it as mysogyny, you will find it hard to function in the real world.

I hadn't realized that TMP Reader2 was a female.

I think that the greatest advantage of the Internet is that it is an equal-opportunity environment. If you don't mention your gender, race, religion, sexual orientation or political believes, you will be judged only by your behaviour.

'Using "girls" as a derogatory term is hardly mysoginistic.'

It actually is:

'dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women.'

Editor, Re: my PM regarding SJW's.

Thus it begins.

Or maybe it depends: link

From your link Bill, thanks:

"Girl" isn't sexist every single time it's used, but when it is used day-in, day-out to signify that the female of the species is somehow lacking, and that the worst thing that could happen to a man or boy – to any of us in fact – is to be like a girl, then it does have an effect.

Using "girls" as a derogatory term is hardly mysoginistic.

Please explain how using 'girls' as a negative term is not misogynistic.

+1 scorpio

Girls can be used a in derogatory manner.

Much in the same way, men, , asshole, , bitch, , etc. can be used in a derogatory manner.

Saying, "You throw like a girl" is not a slight against females it is a slight against your athletic ability.

Saying, "You are a " is not implying that you are physically male genitalia. It is definitely saying, "Your behavior/attitude/comportment/opinion/personality/etc is disagreeable to me and I am going to use language that is not polite to tell you so."

I do not dislike women. I do not hold contempt for women. I am not sure how exactly how ingrained prejudice would manifest itself other than contempt or dislike.

We are clearly not going to convince each other of the other's point of view.

To you I am a base creature, a Neanderthal who will not and probably cannot understand how using "girls" in derogatory manner is not also a clear signal of my hatred and contempt of women.

To me, you are

BTW my usage of "you" is not directed at any one party, but is definitely aimed at the apoplectically outraged.