"Civility on the Forums: Raising the Bar" Topic

Since TMP is the dominant wargaming forum, and in many ways "is the hobby" to the outside world, it is important that we as a community conduct ourselves to a high standard.

I am calling on each of you to exhibit respect for your fellow gamers when posting on our forums.

Discuss the game, discuss the history, discuss the figures… but there is no need to insult, denigrate or make insinuating remarks about your fellow gamers.

Bullying Rule

The forum rules now specifically forbid bullying, which includes making personal attacks, harassment, and making snarky remarks. The goal is for all forum members to act with respect toward one another.

For example: Let's say that you believe forum member Blue Cheese is actually a Jacobin, and you despise Jacobins. So when he posts his review of the latest movie, you reply with "Another Jacobin-inspired bit of propaganda?" That would be bullying, because the movie had nothing to do with Jacobins, you are simply being annoying to Blue Cheese.

I realize this is a high standard to set, but I believe the TMP community is ready to do this.

I don't believe the forum is ready for putting aside snark.

How will you delineate between snarky and humor?

We may comply but it would be appreciated if you provided more guidance or a few more examples of banned snark.

Just as there is a fine line between clever and stupid, there is a fine line between snark and sarcasm.

How will you delineate between snarky and humor?

Editorial discretion?

Unless you can think of concrete rules that would apply…

I'll have to ponder.

Editorial discretion?

And we all know how well THAT works out.

Endless complaints of favoritism and cronyism, the dawghouse fills up and someone else leaves in a huff.

Without hard, fast rules "Editorial discretion" dissolves into chaos.

AGREED!

Will this also include the editor and his assistants?

How do you define if someone has an attitude over the internet when there is no voice inflection or facial cues?

This ought to be interesting…

On the other hand it might steer people to stick with gaming topics.

Without hard, fast rules "Editorial discretion" dissolves into chaos.

Like I said:

Unless you can think of concrete rules that would apply…

Will this also include the editor and his assistants?

Bullying? Of course.

With all due respect, Folks, this is not that difficult. Can the snark, the insults, the derogatory remarks. Be nice to other people -- be civil! It really is not that hard. Take your snark/etc. to another forum, like the Blue Fez. Cheers!

Like I said:

Unless you can think of concrete rules that would apply…

Not. Our. Job.

As inmates in this asylum it is not our job to tell you how to run it. In fact you seem to take exception to those who do.

Bill's house. Bill's rules.

Quite trying to pass off responsibility for decision making with poll's and lines like "Unless you can think of concrete rules that would apply…"

Unless, of course, you prefer the vagarity of terms like "Editorial discretion".

As inmates in this asylum it is not our job to tell you how to run it. In fact you seem to take exception to those who do.

On the contrary, I ask for your input all the time.

Quite trying to pass off responsibility for decision making with poll's and lines like "Unless you can think of concrete rules that would apply…"

I'm simply asking for input.

Unless, of course, you prefer the vagarity of terms like "Editorial discretion".

Actually, I have no problem with that.

This has nothing to do with snarky remarks at all.

I would offer that some people skirt the 'no personal attack' rule by confining themselves to snarky remarks. Snarky remarks can be a form of bullying.

I see no good coming from this.

youtu.be/RlBr2fyqn9g

Editor in Chief Bill:
Does the modified personal attack rule where the injured party can claim no harm – no foul still apply to charges of bullying and snarkinsess? If only editors or third-parties perceive an injury, but not the intended/stated target, then will action be taken? Can the injured party petition for clemency if he/she does not agree with the punishment?
Cheers.
Rod Robertson.

I think the best thing that could happen would be for TMP Topics that are actually about wargaming to get some attention.

Get rid of the clickbait 'weird news' stories, the propaganda/scaremongering on the modern boards, don't show pictures of very sick people on the front page along with appeals for money and cut down on the TMP talk soul-searching.

That threads like this, the bigotry thread, the misogyny threat and geo-political ****-stirring all get plenty of replies when so many genuine wargaming topics don't is, I think, a far more worrying indicator of the direction TMP has gone in than any perceived lack of civility.

Better draw up plans for an extra storey on the dawghaus…….

Well, bully for you.

+1 T like A

And T like A nails it.

Without hard, fast rules "Editorial discretion" dissolves into chaos.

Hard, fast rules are meaningless and not how you manage the behaviour of adults (people who should be able to function in society without the direct supervision of others).

The concepts of civility, decorum, fairness, and restraint inherently require human interpretation. Not just that they are different from person to person (which is also true), but that they are incapable of being codified in a formal system (hard and fast rules).

Does the modified personal attack rule where the injured party can claim no harm – no foul still apply to charges of bullying and snarkinsess?

No. The goal is to improve the tone of the forum.

What I learned acting as an EEO trained Hispanic Council Chair for a (classified) thousands person agency.

Third party offense is still an offense. No sliding (Bill, please note,) no excuses, apologize and consider your audience (the whole freaking world potentially) and act like an adult.

Editor in Chief Bill:
If you want to improve the tone of the forum then lead by example and end the ill-considered vileness which you initiated in the parlour. The two threads in question are personal attacks on the scale of unrestricted total war and are an abuse of your editorial power and responsibility. This behaviour is wrong. Stop it or make no claim about taking a higher road. Practice what you claim to preach. You cannot change the past but you can at least strive for a better future. The future of TMP is in your own hands.
Rod Robertson.

There must be a way of doing this. I am on Lead Adventure Forum everyday and never have I seen the attacks, cheap shots, personal comments and jerky behavior that I encounter on TMP. It also stays strictly on War gaming which is something TMP could do a better job with with less non-wargaming boards ect.

It's the politics that does it every time. That's why Lead Adventure does not have an ongoing internal schism and is, I suspect, taken more seriously

Interesting comments about the parlour there Rod. Clearly something seems to be afoot and if you are correct – and I'm not going to pay to find out – then it begs a few questions as to just what is going on given the lofty ideals promoted so very recently.

Perhaps you'd care to comment, Bill?

A simple rule of thumb when self-filtering your posts: when you draft a post, write it as though the person you are responding to is standing right in front of you, is twice your size and carrying a big club. If you write under this assumption chances are you will think about how your post may come across to the reader. Also when faced with insulting rude behavior don't engage. Nobody wins a mud slinging match and everyone gets dirty.

I agree with Rod I Robertson 1000%.
It is totally bizarre, if not hypocritical, to call for civility ON THIS FORUM, and then to launch attacks in a private section of this forum, on people who have said things on another forum.

Yes. But he won't stop it.

But what about wargaming?

I find it infuriating that when the Editor tries to curb the bullying behaviour of a minority of posters, and improve the experience for everyone, then he faces criticism and weasel words.

In the classic words of that great philosopher Thumper, "if you can't say anything nice, don't say nothing at all"!

The posts from The Lounge have been taken down, but it is already too late. Your calls for civility on the public forums are belied by your performance in The Lounge. My two cents!

What a Soap Opera this place can be.

You want to fix it, Bill? Less talk, more moderation. Close down everything, all over TMP, that is not wargaming. And close down anyone who expresses any political etc views.

A TMPer may well be a Neo-Nazi (for example) or the worst "women hater" out there but if he/she confines their posts to discussing miniatures & gaming, I will never know & get along with them just fine.

And it wouldn't hurt to lead by example.

Close down everything, all over TMP, that is not wargaming.

But that's not what the TMP community wants. Why go against what they have voted for, again and again?

I always try to ask myself 3 questions before I post anything anywhere:

1. Will it help-?
2. Will it hurt anyone-?
3. Will it make a difference-?

Private Matter got it right: THINK before you hit 'Submit'.

But that's not what the TMP community wants.

You asked the question. I provided the answer.

It's not an answer that the community will accept.

Nor does incivility strike only on the non-wargaming boards.

Hi Bill,

My 2 cents:

The aim of improving the tone is excellent, as there seem to be what corporate types might call "problems with the culture". A new rule alone might help, but I also feel you need to take the more dispassionate, managerial tone of a benevolent higher power, rather than following certain elements into the fighting pits (even though that is probably not what you want from your experience here).

One item I've often noticed is that the harassment rule is flagrantly ignored by certain "TMP Personalities", specifically the part which says

It's OK to post that you don't like a particular company because they have poor customer service, or you don't like their products. But it's harassment if you follow them from topic to topic, whining about them.

I was later sad to see yourself similarly repeating grievances with manufacturers and other forums on thread after thread. This is why someone being antisocial usually deflects responsibility by saying "Bill's house, Bill's rules" – they take, amplify and darken the tone set by you.

As an analogy, I'm reminded of a bar in my home town where the manager overly blurred the line between being the barman and being a friend to the regulars. He cultivated a small set who treated the bar like their own lounge room, and while other patrons were allowed in, they weren't made to feel welcome. They drank the bar into bankruptcy in about two years. (True, though, there was no library of rare information out the back.)

Other musing on what might bring improvement:
Maybe set up an incentive to good citizenship, such as the 'reputation' points system like the Wings of Glory Aerodrome?

Put a daily upper limit on a user's number of posts? People might consider more carefully, or condense, what they say.

As said above, close down everything, all over TMP, that is not wargaming. It will certainly improve the tone. As for the community not wanting it, you must assess if that's the whole community or just that element who like the culture just as it is. And, as you say in the FAQ,

This is a private forum, not a public forum.

This is not a democracy; "Bill's house, Bill's rules" is a double-edged sword.

You state 'that's not what the community wants' yet the problem seems to be caused by exactly that. Most of the Community doesn't want to put up with all this BS on an almost daily basis. You can't get upset when you set up a mosh pit and are surprised when it is used for that purpose rather than afternoon tea. Asking people to to observe niceties while slam dancing is not exactly realistic. Do what ALL other non-politics board do and shut that crap down now otherwise you be hand-wringing until kingdom come. You set up that Blue Fez thing as a valve it would appear. It's not working. The bile from that room slips under the door and fouls the air here. Seems just to encourage a rolling bar fight. Ochoin is correct, if you are even remotely interested in improving the tone here, shut it down. The internet has plenty of room for off the point opinion. People play by rules, but when you keep 'moving the bar' all over the place, certain individuals take advantage. It would appear that on the internet there lacks strong personal filters so it is your responsibility as host to set up a site that maintains certain clear standarda and stop dancing sround the edges with 'it's what people want' if that's the case I want a red Ducati 750.

+1 Ochoin, +1 Brucka
I repeat, (see my earlier post) What about the Wargaming?
I come here for wargaming, modelling and Historical information and chit-chat. Everything else is pure wind-baggery.
I don't give a rodents derriere for all this superfluous mud slinging, soul searching, hand wringing, steers rectal ejection.
We are not the United Nations, we can't cure the ills of the world, nor should we try, because as sure as eggs is eggs, all the hot air on here won't change a damn thing.
It breaks my heart sometimes when I see sensible queries and posts pass through these boards with hardly a reply or a mention. If only as much typing was expended on them.
There, I've had my six pennorth, to quote a well known cliché 'for what it's worth', which just doesn't seem to be much.
Let's get back to basics, please?

if he/she confines their posts to discussing miniatures & gaming

And History? Or will it be verbotten too?

+1 Ochoin, Brucka andJarrovian

"and History? Or will it be verbotten too?

For me the answer is, of course history, if it has something to do with wargaming. I do not come here for a history lesson, or to find some interesting little fact about Alexander Hamilton or getting my daily news. I come to read about wargaming.

For me the answer is, of course history, if it has something to do with wargaming. I do not come here for a history lesson, or to find some interesting little fact about Alexander Hamilton or getting my daily news. I come to read about wargaming.

Therefore, if two people are discussing about the impact of the Little Ice Age in Central-European politics in the XVIIth Century, you will denounce them and try that the moderators nuke the thread.

By the way, I've never been forced by a TMP Police Force to read any thread I didn't want. Have you? If that' so, please share the experience.

(Oops! Don't know if my last comment will fall in the "snarky remark" area, or will be understood as it is intended, i.e as simple irony)

If you want TMP to appear "civil" then you will have to remove "uncivil" posts – its as simple as that – and yet also very difficult to achieve given the number of posts made to TMP

Basil,

Yes, your comments were very uncalled for. Nothing that I wrote in any way deserved your response. I gave my opinion I said it was my opinion. Excuse me for having one given that this was a topic in which we are to give our opinions. Nor were your extremely over the top comments helpful.

Yes, your comments were very uncalled for.

How so? You were answering to my previous question about if history should be allowed or not, and you clearly stated that only if it was wargaming related. Then, I defied your statement by asking if that would include denuncing threads with discussions on history that wasn't straightforward related to wargames. That, apparently, offends you.

Nothing that I wrote in any way deserved your response

Again, how so? You said that you came "to read about wargaming", implying that, somehow, the existence of threads or debates on topics not directly related to wargaming impede that activity from your part. I've been never forced to read anything I didn't want. Not here, not in any other forum I know. How you can feel that someone can force you to read what you don't desire escapes to my understanding.

Excuse me for having one given that this was a topic in which we are to give our opinions.

You have given your opinion. I have criticized that opinion by pointing to its inconsistency. Where's the problem? Honestly, I can't see it.

Nor were your extremely over the top comments helpful.

I won't say what I am thinking now, because in that case I would be Dawghoused again for a long time (once I was DHd for a whole month!)

How So?

You asked a question and I gave you my thoughts.

You come back with "You will denounce them and try that the moderators nuke the thread." I never said that or implied that. You try to dismiss my comments by making it sound like I am being, somehow, outrageous in what I wrote. I simply said I do not come to TMP for that.

Then, "forced by a TMP police force." Again, I never said that or even thought like that. So, you again dismiss what I wrote and again imply that I am being outrageous in my opinion.

To me, this was uncalled for. You don't know me and you had no reason to make over the top comments about what I was saying. Again, those sort of comments are not helpful.
I did not attack what you wrote or tried to imply that you were nuts in thinking that. I just gave you my opinion.

This was a post about being civil. Yet, you are so upset with my opinion that you need to stop yourself from being dawghoused? Wow.