""To the Next Level" Prices" Topic

Utter Drivel board. So, I was recently asked if I will be going to GenCon by another wargamer. Not having been to any GenCon, I inquired about the cost of going to GenCon.

This is the reply I got.
$90 USD preregistered 4-day badge, $120 USD 4-day badge
Miniature Wargames range from $2 USD to $12 USD, average $4 USD per game.

Downtown hotel rooms minimum $300 USD/night, but cheaper further from convention.

I quickly replied "NO! I'm not paying $90 USD to get in then have to pay for each game/event regardless wargame/boardgame…

Is this what "To the Next Level" will be like? If so, please keep miniature wargame conventions confine to miniature wargames. No RPG, no LARP, no boardgames and no costumes. There are plenty of existing conventions that do those well.

Just Utter Drivel.

Agreed.

I bowed out of attending and game mastering at a recent convention here in Texas because of some of the above issues. While the convention was not as expensive as GenCon it was more than what I was used to going to Historicon. The convention was also a LARP,RPG,Boardgame with miniature gaming tossed in to just be inclusive. While I have no trouble with folks wanting to attend such conventions it really seems to drive the cost way up from what a miniature war game convention tends to cost.

GenCon is a business making money. They charge what the market will bear.

I don't go because 1) I'm broke, and 2) I don't like being around people for that long.

Paying for the convention (price seems rather high, even for the pre-reg. discount), and then for each game on top of that?

$300 USD a night for a room?

Where is GenCon held?

In the Trump Tower in NY City?

I think I'd opt for a week's vacation in Tahiti, or Hawaii instead.

Crazy pricing……….

GenCon is in Indiana, USA.

I'm sure many enjoy GenCon and are willing to pay the high price. That is okay. It is just not for me. To play miniature wargames, I will stick Little Wars and Historicon next year.

There has been some push in my local convention scenes to open up miniature wargame convention to include other venues such as boardgames and RPG. I disagree because with more people comes larger convention hall space requirements thus possibly increasing prices in the end.

I used to enjoy shopping there but now it is far too crowded to stroll through the booths; far too many sweaty bastards with back packs the size of a Smartcar(TM) running around with no regard as to where that back pack is swinging.

Count yourself luck. The Denver Area Wargaming Conventions are head that way.

Sorry, the Denver area conventions aren't heading that way, they have always been that way. There are pros and cons to both methods.

Plenty of rooms in the downtown convention block that are $200 USD/night. That's not any more unreasonable than most decent hotels. Divided by 4 guests is really cheap. Get some friends and stop whining.

"Plenty of rooms in the downtown convention block that are $200 USD USD/night. That's not any more unreasonable than most decent hotels. Divided by 4 guests is really cheap. Get some friends and stop whining."

@Darthfozzywig. I'm just stating the information I received from someone attending GenCon. No need to get nasty.

"Plenty of rooms in the downtown convention block that are $200 USD USD/night. That's not any more unreasonable than most decent hotels. Divided by 4 guests is really cheap."

But pack in 20, and then you're talking… ;-)

Zephyr1, at most I have found 3 other female miniature wargamers to play a miniatures game and it was fun. Trying to find 19 others to split a hotel room would be absolutely hilarious. But yes, I get your point.

I thought that GenCon was founded by Gary Gygax and company specifically to include RPGs…

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gen_Con

The pricing is silly, and based entirely on modern "geek chic" and the WOTC rediscovery of Barnum's maxim.

Pricing is not silly for those running the con… Charging what the market will bear comes to mind.

NOT that I ever intend to go and pay that kind of money mind you.

Ahem..Gentlemen….

Some more info if you please.

1: Gen Con (the proper spelling), is held at the Indianapolis Convention Center, (and this year it has expanded to the underground exhibition areas of Lucas Stadium).

2: Yes, Gen Con is for profit.

3: Yes Gen Con is crowded. Official ticket/badge sales are approx 60-70K people with a 10% growth rate every year for the last seven years, and a general turnstile count of over 130K.

4: Gen Con often competes with other events in the city for Hotel Rooms, (last year, Gen Con was on the opening home game of the Indianapolis Colts weekend).Hotels are at a premium this time of year. Everyone wants to stay at the hotel directly across the street and not the one four blocks away. So prices are indeed "adjusted accordingly".

5: Gen Con is more than gaming. You have the dealers rooms, art exhibits, panels and seminars, arts and crafts, tours, (last year among the tours were the old Insane Asylum, the underground market tunnels, and the Indianapolis Ghost Walk), a ball, a massive costume parade, Living Dungeon, Painting and modelling classes, games for kids and families, after hours parties, and a host of other things you can do. My wife (Gawd bless her!) pulled 16 hours of volunteer work in the arts and crafts and taught people how to sew, cut foamcore, and all sorts of stuff. Next door were classes in making LARP Foam weapons, Tango Dancing, Steampunk culture, making a Harry Potter Magic Wand, Glass Etching, etc. You can spend the entire convention doing numerous things and not even do gaming.

6: Last year Gen Con pumped as much money into the Local Indianapolis Economy as did the Super Bowl Weekend., and completely blew Indianapolis Black Expo out of the water, with less issues requiring police, fire, and EMS.

7: Downtown businesses love Gencon. Why? Because the people come here to have geeky fun, and they buy lots of stuff, eat lots of food, and pay well, and tip well. The manager of the Steak N' Shake downtown has people volunteering from other places around town to come work because of the tips, plus the fact that he actually needs the help. Scotty's Brewhouse, Ram, Tilted Kilt, all of them are essentially taken over and rake in the bucks.

8: Indy local PD, FD, and EMS spend most of their time on things like sunburn, dehydration, lost people, etc…Almost NO real issues. No one has been shot and killed at a Gencon in a drive-by, (unlike another event here in town).

9: Gen Con isn't for everyone. True I don't like paying to play, (thus I stick with Little Wars, etc), but I do like to mingle, see the creativity of folks, and spend $$$ in the dealer room. This year I am taking one of my favorite vendors out the dinner at a nice pricey joint and letting him have a good dinner courtesy of me, and my bank account, as well as buying more figures from him.

So don't worry your purty little head about "Miniature Wargaming being taken to "The next level". I honestly never see any of the HMGS cons EVER getting 1/3 of the attendance, or the money that Gen Con does. They have a good racket, (errr…business), going on , and they know it, and they have a good customer base.

Will there be a time when people say "No!" in numbers that make them reflect on what they are doing? Of course it will…perhaps in the next 3-5 years or unless they raise prices too much. But until then….they are working the system.

Thank you Murphy for sharing more information about Gen Con.

I agree that a wargaming convention is unlikely to see numbers like Gen Con and as you've stated, "Gen Con is more than gaming."

I'm glad that you did not come off sounding condescending as certain Gen Con worshiper may have thought my post was belittling their beloved convention as I have been informed.

I'm glad Gen Con attendees get their money's worth and most importantly, enjoy themselves with friends doing what they want to do. Life is too short.

OK, a little history. The Wikipedia article (like others involving TSR) is rather inaccurate.

Gen Con was originally the General Convention of the International Federation of Wargamers. Gary Gygax did not start it. Len Lakofka was one of the leading lights, in fact the first Gen Con, the one that the Gygax fans are so anxious to forget that it does not even get included in the numbering, was in Len's suburban Chicago back yard. This proved barely adequate and, so I am told, drew numerous complaints from Len's neighbors.

So, when IFW was casting about for a new site, Mary Gygax (Gary's first wife) suggested the Lake Geneva Horticultural Hall. The convention did not originally include RPG's because there weren't any. When IFW faltered TSR took over the management of Gen Con.

Now for a reality check. Gen Con is no longer a gaming convention. It is a media convention that has some gaming programming. I expect fewer than half the attendees are more than casual gamers. Check the attendance prices on World Con (SF) or Comic Con. Pretty much the same.

And downtown hotels are not cheap in any major city.

Yep, downtown hotels are not cheap.

RMaker, thanks for the background of Len Lakofka connection.

I missed the last two, but attended GenCon for several years in a row in Indy (also went to Milwaukee for several years back in the 90s, too). Hotels in downtown attached to the "Hamster Tunnels" that connect to the convention center are roughly $250 USD a night, including valet parking. You had to register early and often to snag something in the downtown -- even exhibitors (block reserved for them, but they register AFTER the gamers). On the other hand, these are business hotels, not the Host.

Worst elevators: Hyatt.

Longest Walk via Hamster tunnels: JW Marriot and Hilton (tie).

Noisiest: Whatever hotel is in the former train station.

In Milwaukee, it was crowded when 25,000 showed up. In Indy, it's way more crowded with 75,000+ showing up. If you are standing in line for general admission on Thursday, the line will stretch an entire city block (no kidding), from one end of the convention hall where the booths are to the doors at the other end facing the baseball stadium, and often wrapping back on itself.

With 75,000+ in a roughly six or eight-block area, lines are for everything. Even the Dunkin Donuts about 8 blocks away has a 25-person line during off hours (not that a 24-hour convention has off hours). Even the food trucks outside the center have long lines.

We found that for dinner, we could walk 10 blocks and explore local restaurants in less time than it would take to eat at places within a block. Found some good places and bad. There's always the mall food court (via hamster tunnel) that is always crowded but moves quick.

All that said, it is a riot to go if you have any interest in card games and RPGs -- the tournaments are impressive with row upon row of tables filled with gamers.

You will find just about everything in the dealer hall -- which is usually a madhouse. As an exhibitor, it is most impressive at the flow of people -- about a third dressed in costumes. It's a bit difficult to accept you have to stand in a 50-person line to buy a new product from one of the larger companies, but that's what happens. It's not Walmart with a row of cashiers. It's one, maybe two, cash registers. A couple historical based dealers are in the hall.

Auctions are interesting to attend. I never bought anything, but sitting in the audience is like going down a memory lane of products.

Tournaments are a big part, but plenty of gaming sessions for just about every RPG you can think of. As I understand it, the GMs get a piece of the per-event fee (?). I always hosted free events (and there are plenty of those). Plenty of miniatures events, albeit mostly sci-fi and fantasy.

I enjoyed the lectures (all over the place -- center, hotel conference rooms, etc) and some of the movies (most are anime, but some indie low-budget gamer-centric 'films' are shown) and just wandering around seeing an incredible collection of creative people (OK, some are a little too creative for me, but to each their own).

After eight or so years in a row, GenCon gets a little of the sameness -- or maybe it's just fatigue -- of any other convention. It's a 12-hour drive there (and 12 back) and pricey (think of the internet shopping spree with the funds spent on hotel, badge, gas, food, etc), but if you're a gamer, it's worth the hassle at least once…or twice…or three times…

Thanks Russ for the excellent information. I enjoy both wargames and boardgames, but I don't like the idea of having to pay $90 USD to $120 USD for a badge then pay for each game so Gen Con is not for me, especially the LARGE crowd. Okay, I'm cheap.

I know many acquaintances who enjoy Gen Con and I enjoy listening to their Gen Con experiences once they get back. It's great when people are able to afford and spend time doing things they enjoy with good friends/company. I love to see their eyes light up when they share their passion. Shear simplicity and beauty.

Dear Russ

Thanks for the recollections and the experiences. I have a friend who goes to Origins. I went to Gencon in the 90's and my friends tales always kindle a hankering to go to Origins. However things of which you spoke always tend to put me off. The expense is formidable, and I'm always afraid there won't be enough to really hold my interest. I wouldn't mind paying a GM for a game personally if it looked good enough but I suppose I would find the sheer massiveness of these things bewildering. I never went to rock concerts or other "mass events."

Russ,

If you decide to go to Gen Con this year, please come back and post your experience here. You sound like a very fair minded and observant person. Most importantly, have fun if you are able to go.

As someone who has attended (and ran games at) every Gencon since it came to Indy , Let me clarify a few things up a few things
It can be expensive to attend -However a good number of people use Gen Con as their vacation for the year . So please compare the costs to that not to another gaming convention .
b) Hotel rooms in any city are costly -just a fact
c) Parking is actually some of the cheapest I have seen in any city(over 750K) in America, generally $20 USD per day -unless you park at a hotel
d) If you run games totaling 80 gaming hours (length of time x # of players) you get a free 4 day pass. much etter deal than any historical convention
e) If you and 3 friends each run 200 gaming hours (800 total ) you can out in for free hotel room / reimbursement of your room .
both of the above are relatively easy to do if you are so inclined -yes it will eat into your free hours ,but that is a large expense taken care of .

f) GM DO NOT get a percentage of each ticket . You can charge more for your event than Gen Con itself (basically $1.00 USD per hour ) and you get that ,BUT run the risk of no shows /event flopping because people don't want to pay,etc ..

g) Food – plenty of good food outside a 3 block area even more if you want to drive about 15 minutes . The places close to the convention center tend to be chains and packed by people that don't want to go far .
You will wait for your food quite a bit -The restaurants are usually overwhelmed . if you want to relax while eating go further from the convention center .

H) exhibit hall: Is always packed and most people carry large backpacks ,so getting around is very frustrating and tedious. But It is an experience -
Basically its like shopping at Harrods or Selfridges or in NY at Christmas

I am part of an Indianapolis based wargames club that puts on miniatures games at Gen Con. We get enough for badges for all our GM's and usually 4 Hotel rooms . In our mind it is worth it . everyone has walk around time and for us its a social event as well -our GM's live all over the world and we meet up here .

Murphy I do have a question -you mention the Hilton being connected to the ICVA -is that new this year ? Last year they were not connected .

Kevin

Grtbrt, thank you for the information regarding benefits of being a volunteer at Gen Con. Yes, Gen Con seems to be a better deal for volunteers.

I suspect the smaller wargame conventions cannot afford to compensate/reimburse their volunteers without going negative for that year's budget as the convention does not draw the large attendee numbers like Gen Con.

From your statements, I now know that the cost per game fee helps the volunteer to work towards volunteer hours/reimbursement goals. Okay, no problem. None of my acquaintances have ever explained that to me and some are volunteers.

Thank you again Grtbrt. Have fun at Gen Con. Do I dare to ask what libation you will be bringing to Gen Con? Please don't torture me… don't say a Highland Park 30!