"Tried my first war gaming and I LOVED IT, however....." Topic

Hello

First time poster (actually just signed up today from the suggestion of my two buddies) and I had a question.

My two friends finally got me to play some ww2 miniatures games over the weekend and I have to say I had a blast. I'm a PC gamer with little to know experience in table top gaming. That being said, I do consider myself a history buff in regards to WW2 history.

We first played Flames of War. My initial observations was that it played quick, but it didn't seem very accurate. Also, the scale was just too hard for me to wrap my head around. Seeing a M4 Easy Eight 3 inches away from a Tiger didn't seem natural :)

Next set was Command Decision 4, but we didn't get too far. It was running late and the rules are a little complex for my noobie brain (however, we are giving them another shot in a couple weeks). I'm going to read up on the rules a bit. I liked what I saw, but I didn't play enough to get a good feel for them.

It got me wondering about 6mm.

I like the pretty 15/20mm figs they have, but micro armor intrigues me. For sure, I like larger conflicts as opposed to smaller skirmishes.

They chatted about a few other rules and I wanted to get some overall general feedback on them, but mainly 6mm gaming and some recommendations.

They spoke highly about Mein Panzer, but both said the "1 hit" kill on armor bugged them a little, but overall, said the rules are nice but a game can run a little long if it's a bigger battle.

Kamfpgruppe Commander 2 was the other set they play frequently. They both raved about the command and control of the game, but said it's short coming is it's combat…still somewhat abstract. They are shelving it for now as they told me a V3 is coming out soon.

I asked them what rules they liked to 6mm with a battalion or so on each side AND can be solo friendly. I don't get to see these guys but a few times a year, maybe more and I have no one in my area (yet) that games WW2 (it's all warhammer/warmachine or whatever the hell it is and Pokemon/MtG)

Neither of them had really any suggestion as neither of them have much in the way of 6mm except one of them had a few nicely painted Pathers. That GHQ stuff is amazing.

The other had some Pithead mini's and while nice (and he's an amazing painter) those 10mm didn't have the detail the GHQ models have.

So, bring on the 6mm games in WW2 you all like.

Thanks for reading this.

I know many people who play Command Decision in 6mm. Some of them actually mount 4-5 tanks on a base to give a better visual representation of the Platoon it represents.

Great, glad you had fun. What are the WW2 computer games that you have enjoyed most?

For 6mm, I really enjoy "I Aint Been Shot Mum" and "Battlefront WWII". They both play a little like Combat Mission (not sure if you are familiar with that one… Its an oldie but a goodie).

Rapid Fire is written for 20mm figures but can be scaled down to 6mm. It has some nice nuances to a platoon/company level game.

Take a look at Mein Panzer. It is written for 6mm, and the range bands look right. Infantry stands represent squads, tanks are represented 1:1. It has drop in rules for off board artillery and close air support if you want to add them. We are currently playing out a company level battle on the Russian Front using Mein Panzer, and it seems to be playing well.

Welcome.

You catch on quickly, regarding the FOW rules.

Lots of other options and range scales to choose from. Check out the WWII Land Combat message archives, and do a search on WWII rules. I suspect that'll help you choose a set to game with.

GHQ miniatures are superb. They're an excellent choice if you like tank on tank battles. PFC (formerly CinC) makes some very nice stuff too – slightly different style, with less in the way of oversized rivets, etc.. Compatible with GHQ, as long as you don't try to mix in the same unit with the same type. Kind of like 1/285th for GHQ, and 1/300th for CinC/PFC..

1/144th scale armor is another good option, with excellent detailing, if you go for prepainted plastics that are factory assembled and painted. A nice choice for mixed infantry and armor battles.

Arrowhead also makes some very nice, metal 1/144th scale vehicles, and Minifigs do as well, though the latter quality isn't quite as good as the former.

1/100th is another great choice, but as you mention, ranges with some rules look far too short. Microarmor is the best for more accurate scale effect, and even they're way too large.

Buy a few minis, or ask around to see if others have some to show you, before you sink a lot of dough into a scale, or scales.

I'm a multi-scale gamer for various reasons, and like that.

If you decide you're interested in 1/144th prepaints, let me know, since I've got some surplus vehicles for sale, all brand new, and of superb quality.

If the FoW scale bothers you, (and it bothers me too), you might look at Chain of Command. It's at a lower level, so you command just a platoon, not a company. Weapon ranges, ground scale and (if you play 15mm) figure scale are all identical.

You may wish to consider Blitzkrieg Commander. It's quite simple, and we've always found it gives a great battle. Some people don't like it, as each individual vehicle on the table represents a troop, not a single tank. So, some results and mechanisms look odd if you are used to each miniature tank representing a single tank in battle.

That said, BKC 3 is supposed to be coming soon from Pendraken, so BKC 2 might be difficult to find right now.

A lot of miniatures games have ground scales that do not match figure scales, not to mention "fuzzy" ground scales (FoW has this IIRC). FREX, while not a historical game, Warhammer 40K has a groundscale of around 1/350, but the figures are more around 1/56 scale. So the game should be better played with 6mm figures, with the base size being the "zone of control" of the figure. FoW is IIRC very similar in ground scale. I've played it with 6mm figures, without altering any of the rules, and it gives a better impression of the relative groundscale.

Damon.

My recommendation would be to go back and give both FOW and CD another shot, CD in particularly works phenomenally well in 6mm.

Welcome to the hobby !

Others to look at are the already mentioned IABSM, Fistful of tows (free lite versions online, see link), and Fireball Forward (also a free lite version online, link below).

fft3.com

fireballforward.com

I always recommend flexibility. If at all possible, you want to build and base your forces so that sometimes a tank is a tank and a stand is a squad, and sometimes they're platoons, giving you a greater range of battles. Probably you could use, say Mein Panzer or Rapid Fire for smaller engagements, then switch to CD or BKC for larger ones. Remember that a well-built army will outlast a lot of rules.

And welcome to the club!!

Welcome to the miniature side of the hobby.

There are a lot of choices for WWII and that brings a lot of opinions.

Re scale – since you are just starting out, give some thought to how big you want your terrain to be, your infantry and your tanks.

I know for many years GHQ have set the bar on amazing detail at the scale, but Baccuss 6mm are just getting into WWII and my understanding is that they will produce some sort of nylon tank, so it will be interesting to see how they will compare with more traditional production.

In 10mm, despite the size increase, the tanks have not been able to get the detail that GHQ put out, but Pendraken 10mm have just started a refurb of their vehicle line and the new models are looking pretty impressive.

In 15mm, there is a wide range to choose from and a lot of it is in plastic easy build kind with good detail.

Terrain for 6 and 15mm is fairly abundant. Less so in 10mm specifically, but 10mm is also 'N' gauge or close enough, so there is a ton of building stuff you can buy from rail model shops.

For rules, it is most likely that you will end up with a collection of rules as you go through various systems and almost certainly find something about each of them that you think another set does better and I doubt you will get a single answer here that will convince you to jump into any one particular system.

You might find some YouTube footage on some rule systems, I know I was looking at Iron Cross by Great Escape Games the other day and the chap was gaming in either 6 or 10mm.

There is a brand new game out called TANKS from Gale Force Nine – who deliver this product in association with the Flames of war people. But basically for £18.00 GBP (UK), you get 3 X 15mm tank kits (fast build), rules, cardboard terrain and cards etc, this is a very full package for the money – it plays on a 3' X 3' area. It is a tank only game and is unlikely to have the depth that you are looking for, but for a small price, you will get a game onto the table and you can move things on from there – I am not recommending this, it is just a suggestion and also an indication of just how much variety there is out there.

Good luck with whatever you choose and enjoy the playing.

If you want to try skirmish level games -- more like the movie Kelly's Heros, you should consider the NUTS! system from Two Hour Wargames. You're usually controlling from 1 squad to a platoon per side, it has a light roleplay element for your leader figure, a built-in campaign system and you can play head to head, co-op and solo style.

You can try the core rules called Chain Reaction for free:
link

Here's the WW2 rules: link

It has a very active gamer community and forum: link

You can game at any scale, though most folks will do 15mm (Flames of War scale), 1/72 (aka 20mm or HO scale) and 28mm (roughly 1/48th-1/56th scale). You can get into the game at 1/72 scale very cheap, and lots of terrain options:

Get an whole platoon of infantry in 1/72 scale for $7 USD-$10:
link

I really like playing the Battlegroup series of rules using 1/144 scale tanks and figures. We usually play at supported platoon or company level, but the game can be played at squad level as well ( although I think Chain of Command is better at that level) I have 6mm GHQ tanks and they are good, but I think 6mm is more suited to brigade/division level games, like Spearhead. The 1/144 models from Takara, Dragon, Arrowhead etc are well detailed, the vehicles are easily recognisable and, in this scale, it is also possible to easily see that those infantry have a tripod mount machine gun, that group have a heavy mortar and the guys hiding behind the barn are a rifle squad. In 6mm you need optical aids to see that sort of detail

Yea, Nuts has a good following.

The old Battleground rules are still kicking around too, for those that like 1:1 gaming with men and vehicles.

I play Flames of War in 6mm, with a few changes to the turn sequence. I think it is easy to play and teach, rewards tactics in a rough sort of way without inducing a migraine. And I like the size of the battles.

On the realism front, every game abstracts a lot. Some get rid of command and control and let you have total control over your units (Flames of War). Some limit your control and make combat more abstract (Blitzkrieg Commander). Some are designed for simplicity and lump weapons into classes treating them all the same (Bolt Action).

I love the look of games in 6mm. A couple pics of my game last Saturday:

TMP link

I like Spearhead but I think they are hard to get nowadays

We use Rapid Fire mostly or alternately a set of home brewed rules

Welcome to the hobby ! Glad to have you aboard

I can't comment on your question per se, but welcome to a great hobby.

You stated you enjoy the larger battles, if that is the case I would recommend Command Decision, Spearhead Blitzkrieg Commander and Fistful of Tows 3. Fistful of tows has the advantage of being able to do World War 2 all the way to ultra modern (current events). In FOW a tank is a single tank. In the rules I mention a model is actually a platoon so a model represents 3-5 tanks depending on the army and time frame. Mein Panzer and FOW are really aimed at company sized engagements whereas the 4 rulesets I mentioned are intended to be at the brigade and regimental level. A word of advice about our hobby, look for people whose company you enjoy as opponents. If they act like a jerk and are rude, run far, far away.

Battlefront is great. Simple, easy, but also very credible and historical. Lots of support ont the website (scenarios, oobs: take a look at it). Basic manouver units are companies and you can field a few battalions. In 6mm the scale is perfect

First. You can play all rules with all miniature sizes. So you could collect a different theatre in 6mm and play FOW with your friends.

Second. The big difference in rules is 1:1 rules (rules where one model tank resembles one real tank) and rules, where a model/stand is a whole unit. I somehow habe the feeling, you would like the second more. So i think "Brigade" rules, where your whole army is a brigade of some bataillons would be the best for you. Command Decision is one of those rules. I would prefer Spearhead.

First. You can play all rules with all miniature sizes

Pretty much this- "What scale are these rules for" annoys me.

However, as you point out with the larger sizes vehicles can look stupidly close together. My rule of thumb would be if you want armoured combat, then go small- 6-10mm. If you are after infantry (with just a few vehicles), especially low level then larger sizes are ok. Also the larger the force, the smaller the figures.

You may find your decision mad by your painting skills! I find smaller scales easy to paint, because I'm a bit crap. Larger figures have more detail, so more work, but you will have less of them.

My favourite rules are "I Ain't Been shot mum" by the TooFatLardies. You play a Company commander. The commanders on the table are your platoon leaders – lieutenants and sergeants. The units are sections/squads of 8-12 men. You can do individual figures, and remove each kill, but we use 2 30mm square bases with 2-4 figures on to represent 1/2 a section, and use a small die to mark hits, though there is no reason you can't mix – one side on individual figures, the other using bases/dice.

As mentioned above, IABSM sister game is Chain of Command, which is a Platoon a side, for which 15-25mm figures are good.

The reason for the 'too close tanks' is obviously a mismatch of ground and figure scale, and as your battles get larger in scale, then this becomes more pronounced. CoC uses 12"=40 yds, 1:120 scale, slightly larger than 15mm, so you can put 15s in, and get a 'true feel' IABSM is 1:240 (12"=80yds), so even 10mm figs are 'too tall', by the time you are commanding Brigades and Divisions 1"=100 yards – 1:3600. For those games you are looking at 6mm/1:300- 1 vehicle to the troop/platoon, though 2-3 2/3mm tanks on a base gives the idea of numbers.

Play a few different games before choosing an army and scale – I often use self printed counters. Rules are relatively cheap – it is the armies that cost.

Oh, and check out TFLs Platoon Forward for a solo conversion- with a few tweaks can fit any system.

OP, if you're bothered by the size of the miniatures not syncing with the move distances and ranges you'll be disappointed with all rule sets. For some reason people only level this criticism at FOW. (no, I'm not a FOW fanboy; I like Battlegroup for WW2).

Part of FOW's problem are the overly short weapons ranges relative to the size of the minis/models, exacerbating the issue.

FOW is a lot better when using 1/300th scale minis, or if you double the ranges.

Ground scale is unimportant. Your figure/model is just a marker. So use whatever scale of measure you fancy and suits your table.

What is important is the ranges of the various weapons (hands up those who think the ranges in Bolt Action are sane?) compared to movement distances.

Yes- remember vertical and horizontal scales are usually different, as I mentioned above. The piece is as VVV says, usually just a marker. The 'footprint' shows the area covered. I've played with counters with NATO symbols on on a map.