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"Game w/stand replacement rules ? Procedure for recovery " Topic


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708 hits since 17 Jul 2016
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Personal logo Nashville Supporting Member of TMP17 Jul 2016 5:54 p.m. PST

Most games provide that a stand lost, is a stand lost forever. Some games like On to Richmond and Bloody Big Battles permit stand recovery. Stranglers returning -that sort of thing.It works where there is a larger time scale etc. I'm wondering how common this rule is and does it unnaturally prolong the game? finally is there some uniformity with recovering lost stands?

Personal logo Extra Crispy Sponsoring Member of TMP17 Jul 2016 6:42 p.m. PST

I'm a HUGE rules junkie, so have read hundreds of different rule books.

Games with actual stand removal that allow "recovery" are pretty rare. But many games assign units "points" of various kinds that change through action and recover through rest.

Grande Armee assigns units "strength points" you can lose through combat and recover during the end of turn phase. Bolt Action assigns "pin markers" that can accumulate and destroy your units.

So depending how strict your definition is, I'd say at most 10% of rules allow you to "recover."

Personal logo miniMo Supporting Member of TMP17 Jul 2016 7:39 p.m. PST

There are a few I've played over the years, and they work well.

Hordes of the Things – any dead Horde stand can be returned for 1 command pip each. Place it next to it's Stronghold or deployment edge.

Command Decision – when you have 2 stands of the same type removed from the board, remove one from the game and return one to the board coming on at your deployment edge.

JonFreitag17 Jul 2016 8:30 p.m. PST

Fields of Honor allows a recovery of casualties.

Spooner617 Jul 2016 9:17 p.m. PST

Kampfgroupe Commander uses a recovery command, but the unit has to be out of engagement range and roll based on troop quality. Bad rolls make the hits permanent.

Black Powder / Hail Ceaser has recovery as well, but you can never recover the first hit.

Chris

HangarFlying17 Jul 2016 9:22 p.m. PST

Fire and Fury allows for half of the stands removed to return for those scenarios that occurred over multiple days.

Decebalus18 Jul 2016 6:25 a.m. PST

I think the question didnt ask for strength point recovery, but for the recovery of lost stands.

KISS Rommel lets you regain stands, if they were killed near your division headquarter.

vtsaogames18 Jul 2016 2:11 p.m. PST

BBB recovery of stands is on movement chart so it doesn't slow things down. Also, it is a rare event.

It is much more likely if the unit is pulled out of the front and in road column, an unusual thing for a shot-up unit.

Andy ONeill22 Jul 2016 11:55 a.m. PST

It's much more common to have routed stands still remain on table until they move off and you can rally them until that point.
Disordered is another fairly common sort of state.
There are also a number of games where a unit incurs a nebulous sort of hits or dispersions during a turn.
At the end you resolve what that means.

The simpler a rule is the quicker it tends to play.
The HoTT hordes mechanism is of course pretty quick.
Rather similar to spawning points.

Weasel22 Jul 2016 1:03 p.m. PST

Command Decision as mentioned.

In my own LaserStorm, any unit that fails morale checks is taken off and is placed back when it rallies, allowing you to shore up an unexpected attack.

Russ Lockwood22 Jul 2016 4:17 p.m. PST

Wally Simon made use of the "Rally Zone" in many of his rules with the idea that a stand eliminated is not necessarily a group of troops permanently KIA'd. They run off, they come back, they help a wounded fellow off the field, they come back, and so on. He experimented a lot with the Rally Zone idea.

For example, in Volume 5: Master Secrets of Wargame Design (full disclosure: I edit the series), page 15 (ACW Rules Experiment: The Perils of Rallying), part of his ACW rules included a 'filtering process' for casualties…

Here's an excerpt:

Silly Walk

Now, I should note that what General Jim had focused on, when he cried "Silly!" to the world, was not the distorted weapons' ranges. No, he was lambasting the Rally Zone, wherein stands, when they took a couple of hits from enemy fire, were placed, and from which, when rally time came at the end of each half-bound, they could spring back to life and walk back onto the field.

Unca Jim thought that for a stand to be reborn was, indeed, a silly thing. If you were hit, you died, and you stayed dead, thought he.

There's nothing wrong with Jim's thinking, except that, the way I generated the rules, my definition of a 'hit' wasn't really the same as Jim's definition of a hit.

Sequence Sequentials

In the move-and-fire sequence, units, i.e. brigades, were given a number of actions, and had to devote their assigned actions to either firing or moving. When firing, if the four regiments of the 4-stand brigade formed in line, each stand was given a 10-sided Hit Die (HD). A toss of 1, 2, or 3 was a hit on the target. If more than one action was devoted to firing, additional HD were tossed.

What this means is that a brigade, tossing perhaps four to six HD, could score several hits on the target. And if other brigades added their fire to the first, the target unit could collect many, many hits per volley. Note that each time a target stand was removed from the field, an entire regiment of some 300? 400? More? men was out of the fight. This results in a helacious rate of casualties. We need some kind of filter to reduce the actual casualty rate, otherwise we have a very, very, short game.

My filtering procedure consisted of two parts. First, when a brigade took three hits, one regimental stand was removed from the field and placed in the Rally Zone. Not all the men in the regiment were deemed to be out of the fight, but the unit was so disorganized as to be ineffective for the moment.

Second, at the end of every half-bound, a rally phase took place, and both sides diced to see if they could reorganize their regiments, i.e., bring them back on the field. On the rally phase, every stand was diced for: a toss of 1, 2, or 3 meant that the regiment fully recovered, while a toss of 4, 5, or 6 meant that the unit was beyond recovery -- for all intents and purposes, they were truly dead. A toss of 7, 8, 9, or 10 meant that the regiment stayed in the Rally Zone and could try again next time.

The Rally Zone procedures are the ones in which units are destroyed. There is 30% chance of an entire regiment being wiped out (toss of 4,5,6), while there's a 40% chance (toss of 7,8,9, 10) that the unit gets a second bite at the apple.

Note that the filtering process uses a lot of sequential percentage ploys. The HD requires a 1,2,3 for a hit, then three hits removes a regiment, and finally, to recover from the Rally Zone, another 1, 2, or 3 is required. This results in a game in which the firing player tosses lots of dice, gets lots of hits, yet the actual casualty rates -- in terms of 'dead' stands -- is kept within reason. Hence the difference in definition of a hit 'twixt me and General Jim.

Ottoathome25 Jul 2016 4:16 a.m. PST

Wargames Du Temps De Napoleon by John C. Candler printed back in 1964 had a strange combat system which produced both killed and wounded. The wounded could be recovered at a hospital or surgeon during he game. I assumed he lumped "scattered" under this heading. We used the rule occasionally till we realized we spent too much time moving individual figures backwards and forwards across the table top. It got to be a pain.

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