"Historicon: No Flea Market during Vendor hours! " Topic

This is a horrible idea, unless the goal is to Kill the Flea Market, which for some unexplained reason some vendors think would be a good thing. Little Wars in Chicago did separate the times for the Flea Market and Vendors with the result of effectively killing the flea market. Shame on them by the way.

I believe that Adepticon in Chicago runs a late night Bit-Swap, Flea Market type of event. Has anyone had a chance to attend this venue…comments on how well it works (or not) would be appreciated.

Yep, and Virginia requires each vendor to register and collect sales tax when at the show. From my reading of the code, it appears that flea market vendors also share this responsibility (most Virginia Flea Markets require a tax ID number for their vendors. It appears that Fredericksburg does not enforce this.

I also regularly hear about vendors that do not charge sales tax to their customers. The risk of not doing so can result in lots of fines and hassles that I am not willing to accept. It only takes one visit of the tax folks.

"Foot traffic in the dealer hall is impacted by games people are taking part in as much if not far more than the flea market."

This is absolutely not true.

I have never seen people whoosh out of the dealer hall because there is a particular game starting. When the flea market starts we sit for two hours with the dealer hall empty practically.

Also it is also crap that a flea market table costs the same as a dealer table. It costs way less. If you want to stay there the whole time then it might be comparable but if you were just going to sell your own stuff you might.

The solution would be for HMGS to enforce its own rules, which are printed in the program and which are grossly violated in every flea market.

I'm sure there are some people that are spending their flea market money in the dealer hall but this cannot be the norm.

If it were the case then we would have a rush of people after 4 p.m. on Saturday. Here is the sound that actually takes place during the flea market and the subsequent 4 p.m. rush:

YouTube link

Also just because you have a policy where you don't have the flea market open at the same time as the dealer's hall doesn't mean the flea market can only be open after 6. Have the dealers hall open from 10 to 4. It would allow the dealers more time to game, we wouldn't be on our feet for 9 hours. We might even be able to eat a later breakfast and an earlier dinner and skip a meal making it cheaper.

Then you could have two flea market sessions a day, from 8-10 and then from 4-6. Win/win.

Am I the only one who likes to shop the Dealer's Hall when everyone else is at the Flea Market?

Then you could have two flea market sessions a day, from 8-10 and then from 4-6. Win/win.

Win win for you maybe.

I dunno about the rest of us, but I did an initial run around the dealer hall Thursday, marked off which vendors didn't have anything I want/need (80%), stopped when they did, took note, and then left until Sunday and came back to make a few purchases before leaving so I didn't have to worry about it all weekend. This took me less than 2 hours.

Even if the Flea Market wasn't happening, I still wouldn't be in the Dealer Hall.

Perhaps I'm unusual, but I spent $5 USD in the Flea Market area, and around $300 USD in the vendor area.

Perhaps I'm unusual, but I spent $5.00 USD USD in the Flea Market area, and around $300.00 USD USD in the vendor area.

You and me both, Firstvarty. That is my usual distribution of spending also. This Historicon I spent exactly $5 USD at the Flea Market, on a nice home made piece of terrain.

The solution would be for HMGS to enforce its own rules, which are printed in the program and which are grossly violated in every flea market.

Scott. This would be the easiest and simplest way to start.

So how does this work exactly on taxes paid by HMGS on behalf of the vendors?

1. Do the vendors give HMGS a gross receipts of their sales then HMGS pays the state taxes on that?

2. Is this just state, how about federal? Do they do this for all vendors, or only some?

3. Does this happen at all three cons? Does't this have to be declared as income by the vendors?

4. When did this start and who started it? Was it discussed in the membership meeting? Is it found in the BoD minutes?

Late Hour Flea markets would seriously cut into the free gaming area available for friends to put together after evening games.

In Lancaster at least, the Tournament area and Flea market space is the area where friends old and new can settle down for the evening of gaming often of a game discussed for month's ahead of the con by email. This is the heart of the enjoyment of the convention for me.

I often am involved with running an obscure tournament of one kind or another during the day and have to squeeze both my Flea market and dealer hall time in. Limiting the flea market would make my time to peruse it even less and might indeed tie up valuable pick up gaming space. It would in no way increase the time or money that I spend in a Dealer Hall.

It may be at sometime that the economics of the Vendor's hall will create some fluctuation in those dealers who attend.

Any dealer who sets up shop in the flea market area faces issues not withstanding any potential violation of the Flea market rules. The dealer will lose the benefit of most of the Good Will and advertising Value of having a presence in the dealers area; they will be limited in the hours that they operate; and if they are charging retail prices in flea market then they will not be as competitive price wise with actual flea market merchandise.

I look for deals in the flea market and in the Dealer Hall and spend very little on full price items.

Leave the Flea market as it is.

1. Do the vendors give HMGS a gross receipts of their sales then HMGS pays the state taxes on that?

I'm pretty sure this vendor tax must be a separate thing, because I still paid sales tax on my purchases. I think maybe it means HMGS pays for establishing a license with the VA tax board.

At this point, my only complaint about the flea market is I don't get to shop there; being a one man operation, I can't have an employee watch my booth while I go shop.

For me, it would be nice to have one day and one night sessions vs two day sessions so I could shop, but that will never happen, so I've given up that ghost.

And I have a number of customers who sell in the flea market and then come buy from both myself and other dealers, so it does work in some cases in the way in which it was originally intended.

The two years I did shop in the flea market was when the convention was in Valley Forge and the flea market was literally across the aisle from me. I bought some outstanding home made terrain (and whoever it was who sold that stuff to me; you my friend should be in the dealer hall selling terrain, you would clean up) and made the score of a lifetime, about 5,000 or so Der Kriegspieler Napoleonics, mostly Russians which I was woefully short on at the time.

The flea market is like any other business out there; ther are those who will figure out and angle and work it to their advantage, nothing you can do about it, good for them, you figured it out you genius you.

It's like a toy soldier collector who at one point decides; "Hey, I buy so much of this stuff, all I need to do is get a wholesale account, but my toys at 50% off and sell the rest"…………….great plan Einstein; the issue usually comes in on the "sell the rest" as your two car garage in a year becomes a quasi warehouse. It's so simple………………

And as far as dealers being upset that they can't sell in there; one in particular who moans the most about the flea market has had a mole in the flea market for years selling stuff for him, yet he continually complains about it, I would love nothing more than to see him get busted, but it will never happen, he'll just keep double dipping and complaining at the same time, he figures if he keeps complaining, no one will get wise to him, I was able to read him like a comic book in about ten minutes.

This conversation is pointless; the ones who have the most to lose by changes in the flea market set up always chime in on these threads defending to the death the virtues of the flea market.

Yeah, we get it; it's a tradition, if it ain't broke, don't fix it, it costs MORE to sell in the flea market than the dealer hall (that's always my favorite one), we're open 9 hours less than the dealer hall is, etc, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah.

You can stop now, we get it; don't worry, we won't mess with your little money printing operation Crapgame, just don't report the general dead so you can keep collecting his whiskey.

has had a mole in the flea market for years selling stuff for him, yet he continually complains about it, I would love nothing more than to see him get busted, but it will never happen, he'll just keep double dipping

A serious accusation but something I've considered, some people in there just sit for every session with a constant supply of new stuff to sell.

Pictors Studio, I note that you sell exactly one thing in the dealer hall. Painted figures sold in small sets or arrangements. They are nicely painted, and priced accordingly. Should it surprise you to find that people aren't queuing up to see your figures all day, every day of Historicon? Especially when you have the same layout at every single convention you attend? That is not to say you don't have fantastic figures, or that you don't sell a lot (I have no idea if you do) but the fact remains it doesn't require 9 hours, or even most of 15 minutes, to see what you have and decide if you want to purchase it or not. I have no idea what your sales are like but if they are not great I would suggest you look at what you are selling, how much you bring, and what you charge before you jump on any suggestion that lack of sales or traffic has anything to do with the flea market.

As for your counter suggestion that the flea market is not in fact more expensive, you are incorrect. Of course we are talking about the cost of a flea market table for all sessions, that is the only apples to apples comparison that would make sense and plenty of people get tables like that so they have a chance to hopefully sell off everything they bring. Getting a single table for each session at Hcon would cost $125 USD, which if I understand correctly is the same or less than a single table with no frills in the dealer hall. Of course if someone only wanted a flea market table for one session ($25) it would be less, just like it would be less for a dealer to split a table space with another dealer, or just drop of fliers and not get a space at all, or conversely would cost more for a dealer to get a larger space.

>one in particular who moans the most about the flea market has had a mole in the flea market for years selling stuff for him, yet he continually complains about it, I would love nothing more than to see him get busted

I know exactly who you are speaking about Double G. I have never really had a beef with him until I found out what kind of person he was, and I have personally had him ask me to get access to the flea market without paying for a table by "helping me" unload my stuff or to watch my table. The year he did that a few guys warned me about him, and I've been wary ever since. And yes I have heard and seen him complain very loudly about how bad the flea market is as well, and he has bought things from me twisting my arm to get me to drop my price lower than my usually low prices, only to run it over and for resale at his booth. More power to him on that point I guess, free enterprise and all that, but the underhanded playing both sides thing and not being upfront always struck me as sad.

A booth in the dealers hall is $260 USD so you are wrong.

Also I sell more than painted figures, so you're wrong on that too.

Checking the Historicon dealer PDF it states that the lowest cost to get a space is $130 USD, not $260. USD It costs $125 USD to get a flea market table for the weekend.

It is worth mentioning again that in another thread multiple dealers at Hcon are commenting how they did really well at the show. I also note here in this thread multiple dealers have come forward commenting that they don't see the flea market or how it is run as any sort of threat whatsoever. Suffice to say I am beginning to assume that it is the dealers who do the least well that complain about how the flea market must be at fault.

Well like I said, the only change I'd be on board with would be to move one session on Friday and one on Saturday to an evening session, say 6 to 9 after the dealer hall closes so myself and other dealers with loads of cash available could shop there.

I said that to one toy soldier dealer who sells in the flea market vs getting a dealer space and his comment was "That's not a good idea; I don't feel like hanging around all night, I like coming here, doing my selling in two sessions and then going home for dinner."

Oh goodie, I'm glad the schedule conforms to your needs as a rule breaker selling in the flea market then, we won't change a thing as we'd hate to disrupt your eating schedule.

Again, I saw with my own eyes several customers, one in particular, who showed up at my booth AFTER each flea market session ended with piles of money that they partially handed over to me, I am sure they did the same with other dealers.

And once again, the flea market is like any money making opportunity; some play by the rules, others break them, not a thing I can do about it.

I bring the best products I have available to each show and hope for the best.

Do the "Mid Night Madness" on Friday night, cancel the Saturday afternoon flea market session, let the vendors that get a flea table for Friday night leave their stuff set up for the Saturday morning session, if they want to…Money earned in the flea market from Friday night and Saturday sales go to spending in the vendors hall and also allows people the ability to game more on Saturday…

Jeepers Pictors, I didn't know. I've been passing your booth for decades without really paying attention. You're painted stuff is gorgeous, but has always been too dear for my paltry disposable hobby budget. If I had won the megajackpot last January, I had planned to have you do up a full Gringo40's Camerone set.

Sadly, it was not to be…

"Checking the Historicon dealer PDF it states that the lowest cost to get a space is $130 USD USD, not $260. USD"

But there are a limited number of those tables. Since we are comparing like to like, you can't compare them to the price most vendors have to pay for a space at Historicon.

"Suffice to say I am beginning to assume that it is the dealers who do the least well that complain about how the flea market must be at fault."

I had a pretty good Historicon. I'm just sick of sitting there for two hours, twice a day with nothing to do Friday and Saturday and then once a day on Thursday.

It is not to say that there is nothing to do and I made the odd sale here and there during the flea market but the dealer hall clears out as soon as the flea market opens.

Here is another solution. Have two flea market sessions, 10-12 and 12:30-2:30 and let the vendors run a game or go to lunch.

I think the ideal thing would be to have it before and after the vendor hall opens and shorten the dealer hall hours.

As it is now the dealer hall stays open until 6. If I'm running a game I can't start sooner than 7 at night. If I do start at 7 it means I miss dinner generally or get it later.

If the flea market was from 4-6 and the dealer hall closed at 4 I wouldn't waste two hours in the afternoon doing next to nothing and still be rushed to run a game.

There are lots of vendors that actually make games and it would allow them to be at their booths and even run longer or multiple games at night.

History Gamer, I am not sure what HMGS is paying for. I think it may be some type of occupancy license/fee for each of us. I have never seen anything before. Must be a local requirement.

I assure you they are not paying our sales taxes or anything like that. We are responsible for obtaining a sales tax ID, collecting the sales tax and remitting it on time to the state.

History gamer, WHAT federal taxes? There is no federal sales tax, at least until the vultures discover that and get it.
It's bad enough that the states (excuse me, Commonwealths ) of Virginia and Pennsylvania sink their hooks into our money. Don't give the Feds any ideas.

When the show moved to Valley Forge, HMGS was faced with the issue that anyone selling in the convention center must have some form of State tax ID, whether it be from their own state or purchase a temporary PA one.

I believe the creation of Wally's Basement was to put all flea market vendors under a single license held by HMGS. Again, I believe without doing this, each flea market vendor would have been responsible to pay another $50.00 USD or more for that temporary license.

Doug, I believe any vendor in the vendor hall needs to submit a tax id to be in the vendor hall. And, all vendors, not HMGS are responsible for paying their collected sales tax to the state of Virginia.

rick32"Am I the only one who likes to shop the Dealer's Hall when everyone else is at the Flea Market?"
Right with you. I skittled into the Cold Wars dealer room at the beginning of the Friday afternoon session, since my newly-acquired loss of equilibrium made shopping an adventure in just walking relatively straight.

I think I'm in agreement with most here, leave the flea market alone. I do a tour around the flea market first ( and will whatever time it's open ) before the dealer hall unless I need something specific then it's the dealer hall first.

The flea market is for finding a nice deal on something, say a bunch of figures that I didn't know I needed until I saw them. Then going to the dealer hall to get the rest of the figures needed to finish off a complete army, which usually means the the other 60% needed, well that's how it generally works for me.

I would say that if the board is making so much money they should drop dealer and or flea market table space prices a bit as they are both a big draw for the con, I know we all keep saying that but does the board ever listen?

The OP is begging the question that dollars not spent in the flea market will automatically be spent in the dealer area. Not proven.

Jpipes nailed it about a page and a half ago.

I've worked first hand as a dealer at cons and have heard a lot of dealers issues. Some are valid. The majority are self-inflicted. Many dealers are not good business people and get into selling because of the enthusiasm for the hobby, not because they have identified a market opportunity and a proper plan to capture it.

Put everyone together in one vendor area the whole con and let people shop both the flea market and the traditional dealers. That way there is no loss of traffic. If people want to abandon their booths and close up during the day let them. It should be their choice.

For dealers complaining about being undercut by people in the flea market let me remind you that you are already competing with these people every day. In fact, far more than attend the convention. You just get to see them there face to face and see people buying from them and assume those would be your customers.

The marketplace is changing and some sellers can't or won't adapt while others tweak their business model and not only survive but thrive. That change is happening faster than ever and like in nature those that can't adapt go away.

You are not entitled to business, you have to earn it. If there is not a compelling reason for someone to buy from you why should they?

RE: The OP is begging the question that dollars not spent in the flea market will automatically be spent in the dealer area. Not proven.

Not true… actually. I wasn't begging anything. Like everything else on the internet, some claims are being wildly exaggerated. Like the request to eliminate the flea market, so the dealers can make mo' money! That has never been stated by any dealer I know.

I honestly believe that the dealers (along with the GMs) are the lifeblood of these cons. People wonder why dealers choose to stop attending. Perhaps it would do us wonders to actually listen to a few dealers once in a while, rather than insulting them.

Please note there is a difference between dealers and manufacturers.

A dealer may stop attending because he is having a hard time differentiating himself by selling the same box of product from the same manufacturer that ten others are also selling at the place and time.

Manufacturers are the ones who add value by actually making product to purchase. What they offer is more unique (sculpting style, scale, packaging, etc.)

2016 HisToricon shopping; Dealer hall new product, about 340 dollars. Flea Market used product, about 60 dollars. I started no new eras this year, thank God. I go to the Flea for painted miniatures (usually) and terrain pieces. In the flea, bought a great looking bluff, two buildings I can use for Frostgrave, and about 20 ho hum painted WH fantasy figures, also for Frostgrave. The numbers change per con, but they are almost always far more favorable to new product-- flea markets are great to provide extra stuff in a period I'm already invested in and don't have time to paint.

Walt

To me the convention is more about the gaming, but I do like shopping the flea market and the dealer hall… unfortunately, I usually run or play in too many games to do much of either.

One thing I liked about the new Expo center is that the dealers are much much closer to the action so I got a chance to sneak over there more than once (and spend money).

So location and accessibility are key for my busy convention time.

The most important aspect of the conventions to me is face time with other gamers…. Many of whom I see once or twice a year.

Whether it be in the games, the classes, the flea market, the dealer hall, or just chatting around the hall…

It seems like a possible compromise solution would be to arrange the flea market access through the dealer hall? The people lined up to get in could be lined up and standing in front of the dealer tables.

I did not study the hall access while there, but it seems to me this might be doable because the halls had multiple access points. If there is a way to route the flea market buyers through the dealer hall and load the flea market via another route and not through the dealer hall then it seems like it would maximize traffic for both venues.

In the end increasing face time with customers and dealers….