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"General de Division Gudin Division 1809" Topic


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MarbotsChasseurs16 Jul 2016 2:22 p.m. PST

Next up is General de Division Charles-Étienne César Gudin de La Sablonnière, which included the 7e Leger, 12e Ligne, 21e Ligne, 25e Ligne, and 85e Ligne.

Interesting thing about his division is it seems to have had unique divisional uniforms for all line sappers and voltigeurs except the 25e Ligne. The Otto Manuscript describes this detail and probably gives the best sources for this division. The 25e Ligne I could not find any information on the Grenadier or Volts so I gave them the same color as the rest of the division.
[URL=http://s1364.photobucket.com/user/Boomerlc23/media/7eme%20Leger%201809_zpshgizo8c7.png.html]

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[URL=http://s1364.photobucket.com/user/Boomerlc23/media/12e%20Ligne%201809_zpsuksvkx6y.png.html]
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[URL=http://s1364.photobucket.com/user/Boomerlc23/media/21e%20Ligne%201809_zpsgiozt2sk.png.html]
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[URL=http://s1364.photobucket.com/user/Boomerlc23/media/25e%20Ligne%201809_zpseaacfxjs.png.html]
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[URL=http://s1364.photobucket.com/user/Boomerlc23/media/85e%20lige%201809_zps4z6jo1b7.png.html]
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Michael

marshalGreg18 Jul 2016 7:23 a.m. PST

Marbotchassuers
I am in the same process as you….
1) Excellent work!
2) How are your creating these plates?
3) What sources did you use to determine the uniformology of these units? Mine search has been less successful.
4) Re your conclusion for the 25th- It seems to me, Gudin's was distinguishing his brigades by the cuff flaps ( senior regt of each with blue and other red- if this is truely correct from reliable sources as you present) and the volt plumage same within the brigade- So I plan to make the 25th Volt similar to 85th (with red cap green plume over green pom pom or yellow cap red plume over green pom pom). Not sure yet which way to go

regards,
MG

MarbotsChasseurs18 Jul 2016 8:48 a.m. PST

marshalGreg,

I created the uniform plates in paint by saving pictures from the great website link and then editing them in paint using the copy and lasso function to move certain parts to where I wanted them. After I got a base for the line and light infantry I was able to change small objects such as shako plates and plume colors without having to redo the whole figure. I also changed colors by using the paint bucket fill button. Mr. Alexis Cabaret deserves all the credit for creating the website and amazing uniform plates, I just edited them to a pre-bardin uniform.

I searched deep through books such as Otto Manuscript, which seems to be the best guide on Gudin's division from around 1807 time period. I also used the internet search function and I found this great website
link by Frédéric BERJAUD. He gives different uniforms for many regiments and shows how many of the different sources show small differences in colors of plumes, cuff flap colors, and other things that make each regiment stand out. I also used such artist as E.Fort, Lucien Rousselot,henri boisselier, El Guil Manuscript, Carl Collection, Boersch Collection, and Rigo Le Plumet plates. After looking through these sources I made an educated guess on what I felt was shown the most from all the different artist or if I could find a contemporary plate such as the painting at the Storming of Landshut bridge in 1809, which shows the 17e Ligne grenadiers and 13e Leger grenadier, voltigeur, and chasseurs I used that as a source. That painting was painted for General de Division Mouton to celebrate his exploits at the bridge and capture of Landshut.

For the 25e Ligne, I found that many regiments put their sappers and drummers in uniforms that had the same color patterns. Also for the 85e Ligne voltigeur in the otto manuscript it shows a very unique elongated pom-pom that is red over green. Since I am painting 6mm I went with a pom-pom that is common on Adler miniatures elite French infantry.

Hope this helps. Hopefully, be finishing up on the Friant and Morand division. I am not saying I am 100% correct or have the shako plates the right height, but I just wanted to provide the information that I found.

Michael

marshalGreg18 Jul 2016 5:04 p.m. PST

Michael,
Thank you very much!
You definitely have some very impressive sources!
I am familiar with Mont St jean site for 1815 but was baffled how they were with pre bardin.
You did absolute splendid job making that change. I thought they were from different plates he made that you used as your base, then you made the subtle changes per your sources.
WOW!

MG

MarbotsChasseurs18 Jul 2016 5:30 p.m. PST

Thank you MG, but Mr. Cabaret did all the work I just figured out how to mix and match the uniforms to my taste. The hardest part was painting certain parts of the uniform.

My goal is to create as many regiments as I can. At the moment I have about 22 of the leger regiments finished and now working mainly on finishing Davout's 3rd Corps. Sadly, some regiments such as 108e Ligne there is very little evidence other than a grenadier and the 61e Ligne which I could only find the drum major in 1812. If, you need some pictures please let me know I could email you what I have found. I am trying my best to find information of all the regiments that fought in 1809 campaign.

Michael

marshalGreg25 Jul 2016 1:08 p.m. PST

Michael,

When do you plan to have the next one done? I have issue with unit information with both and curious what you have found or have decided on to go with.
particularly… 61st line, 48th ligne, 108th ligne, 111th ligne, and 13th legere!

MG

MarbotsChasseurs25 Jul 2016 3:36 p.m. PST

Marshal Greg,

Here is the 13e Leger with the pictures I used for my uniform plates that I posted on TMP earlier. theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=381500[URL=http://s1364.photobucket.com/user/Boomerlc23/media/13e%20Leger%201809_zpsovsdsjpv.png.html]

[/URL]"TMP link

[URL=http://s1364.photobucket.com/user/Boomerlc23/media/61e%20ligne%201812_zpsga2ilgne.jpg.html]

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Sadly, I could only find the drum major in 1812 for 61e.

Hope this helps
Michael

MarbotsChasseurs25 Jul 2016 3:40 p.m. PST

Louis Hersent painting of Brigde crossing at Landshut. If, you look closely you can see the 17e Ligne grenadier about to charge the bridge and the 13e Leger soldiers on the bottom firing on the Austrians.[URL=http://s1364.photobucket.com/user/Boomerlc23/media/753px-Louis_Hersent-Crossing_the_bridge_at_Landshut_zpskzigpalj.jpg.html]

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MarbotsChasseurs12 Nov 2020 5:57 a.m. PST

Sources for the 85e Ligne

picture

Grenadiers Otto Manuscript

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Voltigeurs Otto Manuscript

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Sapeur Otto Manuscript

picture

Fusilier

MarbotsChasseurs12 Nov 2020 5:59 a.m. PST

picture

25e Ligne Sapeur Otto Manuscript

MarbotsChasseurs12 Nov 2020 6:11 a.m. PST

21e Ligne

picture

Major 21e Ligne most likely Etienne Sabry 12 Brumaire an 12 to Mars 31 1809.
picture

Portrait of a Chef de batallion
picture

Grenadiers Otto Manuscript
picture

Sapeur Otto Manuscript
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Portrait of a fusilier with black tipped white plume
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Fusilier Otto Manuscript
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Voltigeurs Otto Manuscript

MarbotsChasseurs12 Nov 2020 6:20 a.m. PST

12e Ligne

picture

picture

picture

Caporal Tambour
https://i.pinimg.com/1200x/f9/34
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Sergent Major wearing a shako most likely prior to the reorganization of 1808 when a officer took charge of the Eagle.
picture

Musician
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Voltigeur
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Major Raymond Jean-Baptiste Teulet 12e Ligne 1806 in white uniform
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Colonel Henri-Aloyse-Ignace Baudinot 12e Ligne 1812-1815

MarbotsChasseurs12 Nov 2020 6:36 a.m. PST

7e Legere

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Colonel prior to Wagram where the officers were ordered not to use the rachets shako cords on their shakos.
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Petit Soldats
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Petit Soldats Boersch and Carl Collections
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Petit Soldats
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Caporal Chasseur Bucquoy Plates
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Chasseur Drummer Bucquoy Plates
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Voltigeur Sergent Bucquoy Plates
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Voltigeur Cornet Bucquoy Plates
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Sapeur Bucquoy Plates
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Colonel Sebastien Luchaire 7e Leger July 6,1809-1811. He is wearing pointed cuffs. He did serve with the 18e Legere, but his gorget seems to have a 7 in the middle of it. However, his buttons seem to show a 1 and another number!

von Winterfeldt12 Nov 2020 1:29 p.m. PST

Interesting image of Luchaire, but what is the source? Doesn't look that contemporary to me.

Also red pointed cuffs – also the placing of the two buttons seems a but odd to me, I know only of samples either one on the cuff and one above or two above.

MarbotsChasseurs13 Nov 2020 1:04 p.m. PST

von W,

I must admit the uniform is interesting looking. I found the image on one of those sites that sell portraits. However, I can't find that site anymore! Whenever I find it again I will reference it here.

Personal logo SHaT1984 Supporting Member of TMP14 Nov 2020 9:04 p.m. PST

>>Also red pointed cuffs –<<

I wasn't going to say…but…
-the 'overdone' mass of non-descript lace on shako AND cords- when people are screaming about regulations…
-oversize lozenge plate when it would be more likely for the time (not to say this regiment had them,) to have had an eagle plate…
-the oversize 'loose/ open' collar- not a 'tight' uniform by any means…
-and last but not least, the very large 'up tight to the neck' gorget.

Seems a very naive attempt where uniform is known but details aren't at all well depcited. Naturally I couldn't paint either!
Sorry Michael,
d

MarbotsChasseurs15 Nov 2020 5:22 a.m. PST

For shako plates

picture

picture

picture

Found at the Beresina

If you look closely at his buttons the third button on the right shows a 7 and the gorget has a 7 as well. Also, Colonel Luchaire was previsouly the major of the 18e Legere and then Colonel en Second of the 17 demi-brigade during the 1809 campaign. This could be possibly a transition uniform. I agree it does seem to be a native attempt.

About the shakos 7e Legere and the changes in 1809
"On comparera utilement avec la figure 14ter du Colonel au début de 1809. La transformation la plus spectaculaire survient au niveau du shako. Notre Colonel, après Wagram, décide de supprimer les cordons de shakos et pour compenser, de galonner largement d'argent ceux des Officiers. Une lettre du Sous-lieutenant Dandalle à ses parents en Septembre 1809 en fait foi : "C'est par suite de l'ordre qui a été donné au régiment que Mr le colonel a écrit au bataillon de dépot pour la tenue des officiers qui sera indépendamment de la coiffure, de l'habillement et de la chaussure d'uniforme, du chapeau à clack (sic), pantalon et culotte de casimir blanc, culotte de casimir noir, bas de soie blanc et noirs et boucles à filets (pour la tenue de sortie NDLA) … Nos shakos éprouvent une grande révolution : il n y aura plus de cordons, mais il sera remplacé par une mentonnière en argent adaptée aux deux cotés du shako par une tête de méduse. Le galon qu'on a trouvé trop simple sera remplacé par une bordure assez large en haut et une autre plus petite au bas. Ces objets d'un très grand prix à Vienne ont été commandés à Presbourg. La bordure seule coute 60 florins et à peu près la même somme pour la mentonnière … Monsieur le colonel et un chef de bataillon ont déja leurs shakos garnis. Ce ne sont point les shakos seuls qui éprouvent une révolution, la bourse en éprouve de terrible"

The Colonel's supposed portrait from Drouot Catalogue

picture

MarbotsChasseurs15 Nov 2020 1:52 p.m. PST

Dave,

I was looking at portraits of Legere officers and it seems a lot have a similar collar. The second officer's spacing between the buttons on his lapel is interesting.

Colonel Delzon 4e Legere

picture

picture

picture

von Winterfeldt16 Nov 2020 9:42 a.m. PST

thanks – it seems that the light infantry officers did sometimes use the large buttons on the lapels – instead ot the small ones, here an original coat -looking at the long coat tails, an officer.

url=https://postimg.cc/23YG06zP]

MarbotsChasseurs16 Feb 2021 12:47 p.m. PST

Hello everyone,

I did not want to start a new thread, but I have posted on the Napoleonic discussion forum my research on the officers of the 7e Legere. I have tried to show every officer who served with the regiment on April 19, 1809, and whatever documents I have on them, such as the 2YB files and Base Leonore files. I will add the Lieuts and Sous-Lieuts next.

link

Michael

Personal logo SHaT1984 Supporting Member of TMP16 Feb 2021 1:51 p.m. PST

Superb as ever!
Congrats M.

MarbotsChasseurs16 Feb 2021 2:11 p.m. PST

Dave,

Thank you for the encouragement! One of my favorite regiments. The XB file shows every officer who was awarded the LdH before 1 Avril 1809, but sadly, many can not be found in the Base Leonore database.

MarbotsChasseurs18 Feb 2021 1:25 p.m. PST

Hello everyone,

I added the Lieuts, Sous-Lieuts, and NCOs and soldiers. link

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