"General de Division Saint-Hilaire Division 1809" Topic

Hello everyone,

I have been having painters block so I decided to work on some uniform guides for whenever I decide to paint again. I am currently working on Marshal Davout's 3rd Corps in 1809. Here is General de Division Louis-Vincent-Joseph Le Blond, comte de Saint-Hilaire division which includes 10e Leger, 3e Ligne, 57e Ligne, 72e Ligne, and 105e Ligne. Sadly, there is no evidence I can find from the 72e Ligne and 105e Ligne has only evidence of them in greatcoats for the elite companies in Spain I believe.

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72e Ligne will be given the common red plume for grenadier and green and yellow plume for the voltigeurs. Let me know what you think and if you have any info of the 72e.

I am currently finished with about 14 of the 20 regiments in Davout's 3rd Corps.

Michael

Pretty sure the 10th Léger are very well documented in having red cuffs.

Probably the most painted division from the entire wars – and most commonly deployed Corps :)

Zippe,

This is my source I believe the artist is E.Fort, but could be wrong. I agree the most painted division and Corps, but I wanted to try my best to give people who are very detail minded the most accurate information I could find for 1809.

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I used E. Fort, Boisselier,Carl Collection and Lucien Rousselot for uniform information and majority showed white cuffs.

I agree with Zippee that the pointed cuffs come up later, when you look at the "Otto" manuscript light infantry had still in 1808 the usual cuff and cuff flaps style like line infantry and seemingly 4 buttons on the cuff flap were en vogue was well.

Fort, Boisselier etc. – have to be used carefully there they are modern artists – whereas Rousselot give an good overview but couldn't be a study for each regiment

I belong to Les Grenadiers du 67eme link We are a Napoleonic Reenactment group based in the US. Needless to say, I spent a great deal of time researching the 57e. If anyone would like more information on the regiment they are welcome to visit our facebook page or simply PM me.

Couple of things I wanted tp share with you. Below is a pic of one of our grenadiers.
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One of the things that is sometimes overlooked in recent images is the placement of the brass shako plate. The top point overlaps the cocade and touches the center blue circle.

One of the aspects of the study of uniformology should be to avoid sweeping statements.

The Grande Armee had no army-wide uniform regulations until the Bardin Regulations of 1812 and those probably were not applied army-wide until 1813 and there is a good chance that they did not apply to the French units in Spain.

And it should be noted that shako design and size could vary from regiment to regiment, as would the size and design of the shako plates. After the diamond-shaped shako plate gave way to the more elaborate eagle plates, the designs even in the same regiment would vary, the elite, center, and cannon companies having different designs. The 56th Ligne even had a five-sided shako plate.

A handy reference are the publications of the Musee de l'Armee which covers the collection in the museum with photographs of original examples of shakos with their plates and tricolor cockades. Some of the shako plates come to the bottom of the cockade, some cover different rings of the cockade with some coming to the center blue 'dot' of the cockade. Even the cockades are different in their construction.

There are excellent primary source material that shows the two types of shako plates (eagle and diamond-shaped) that do as you describe and that also do not. The Bourgeois of Hamburg and others show both ways of the different shako plates in relation to the cockade and for units that didn't wear a shako plate, the point is moot.

Otto Manuscript
Unit Rank Shako Plate Top of Plate to Cockade
3d Line Sapeur Flaming Grenade Not Touching Cockade
3d Line Gren Flaming Grenade Not Touching Cockade
3d Line Volt Eagle Bottom of Red Ring
8th Line Off Eagle Red Ring
8th Line Voltigeur Eagle Not Touching Cockade
8th Line Officer Eagle White Ring
8th Line Fusilier Eagle White Ring
21st Line Voltigeur Eagle Bottom of Blue Center
21st Line Fusilier Eagle Bottom of Blue Center
22d Line Grenadier Diamond Middle of Red Ring
22d Line Voltigeur Diamond Middle of Red Ring
24th Line Voltigeur Eagle Bottom of Red Ring
45th Line Grenadier Diamond Middle of Red Ring
46th Line Officer Eagle Bottom of Blue Center
46th Ligne Voltigeur Eagle Bottom of Blue Center
63d Ligne Officer Flaming Grenade Not Touching Cockade
63d Ligne Grenadier Flaming Grenade White Ring
85th Ligne Sapeur Diamond Bottom of Red Ring
85th Ligne Officer Diamond Bottom of Blue Center
85th Ligne Grenadier Diamond Bottom of Blue Center
85th Ligne Officer Diamond Bottom of Blue Center
85th Ligne Voltigeur Diamond Bottom of Blue Center
94th Ligne Voltigeur Eagle Blue Center
96th Ligne Fusilier Diamond Bottom of White Ring
96th Ligne Voltigeur Diamond Bottom of White Ring
9th Legere Chasseur Diamond Not Touching Cockade
16th Legere Sapeur Eagle Bottom of White Ring
16th Legere Carabinier Flaming Grenade Not Touching Cockade
16th Legere Chasseur Eagle Bottom of Red Ring

French Army Museum Examples
Napoleon et ses Soldats, Volumes I & II

Volume I

-Page 57, center top: Middle of the blue center (eagle plate, line infantry).
-Page 58, center top: middle of the white ring (diamond plate, line infantry).
-Page 58, right top: bottom of the white ring (eagle plate, light infantry)
-Page 75, bottom left, below the cockade (line infantry cannon company, eagle plate)
-Page 79, top left, in the red ring (6th Ligne, diamond plate).
-Page 79, middle top, bottom of the red ring (diamond plate 114th Ligne).
-Page 79 middle right, in the white ring (36th Ligne, eagle plate)
-Page 83, middle right, in the blue center (diamond plate, line infantry).
-Page 84, middle left, bottom of the blue center (eagle plate 122d Ligne).
-Page 84, middle right, behind the cockade (diamond plate, 102d Ligne).
-Page 84, bottom left, in the blue center (eagle plate, 79th Ligne).
-Page 85, middle center, in the blue center (eagle plate, 24th Leger).
-Page 86, top center, middle of the blue center, (eagle plate, 3d Legere).
-Page 86, top right, bottom of the white ring, (eagle plate, light infantry).
-Page 86, middle left, bottom of the red ring (diamond plate, 10th Legere).

Volume II

-Page 55, top left, middle of the blue center (eagle plate, 37th Ligne).
-Page 55, middle top, middle of the red ring (eagle plate, 37th Ligne).
-Page 55, top right, middle of the white ring (eagle plate, 76th Ligne).
-Page 63, middle left, top of the red ring (eagle plate, five sided, 56th Ligne).

Conclusions:

Uniformity of shakos and plaques/plates were to be found within regiments, but definitely not across the spectrum of line and light infantry regiments. There were at least five different general types of plaques-diamond, eagle, pentagonal, flaming grenade, and Vernet shows one more-the sunburst plaque.
Cockades were not of uniform design either-the red and white rings and blue center were not of uniform size. And the plaques/plates were not of uniform size within designs either.
So, to state that all of them on shakos reached to the blue center of the cockade is incorrect.

Kevin – I didn't state "all". Perhaps I should have stated it as, "Based on my observation of many museum examples, the great majority show the diamond plate overlapping the bottom of the cocade". Clearly, the examples you indicate above prove that.

well MDavout, I can honestly say that photo took my breath away.. how fantastic..

I didn't state "all". Perhaps I should have stated it as, "Based on my observation of many museum examples, the great majority show the diamond plate overlapping the bottom of the cocade".

Here's what you posted:

One of the things that is sometimes overlooked in recent images is the placement of the brass shako plate. The top point overlaps the cocade and touches the center blue circle.

That statement indicates that you meant 'all' did it not?

And, yes, the examples shown indicate that the majority overlap the cockade at some point.

What has to be taken into consideration, again, is that shako plates, as well as shakos, were of different sizes and designs and the plates were also placed in a non-uniform place on the front of the shako.

This not only happened in the infantry, but in the artillery, the Guard, and the light cavalry.

And sometimes there was no shako plate, no cockade, or the cockade was mounted on the side of the shako, as in some light infantry units.

MC

I ran across some info from E. Fort as well. It indicated that the 105th de Ligne had musicians in light blue facings. With much evidence indicating the tambours wore very similar dress to the musician staff, perhaps they too are in the Lt Blue with yellow lace.
I believe this will be the direction I go unless something proves more solid.

Looking forward to your results for Morand's Division.

MG

3e Regiment d'infanterie tete de column 1809. I used Le Plummets pictures with the tricolor lace. However, I have seen the painting by lucien rousselot that shows them with a gold/orange lace. I know the tambour major isn't correct, but I broke my old computer that had paint on it so I can not correct the mistakes. Hopefully, will be getting a new one so I can edit more plates from centjours.mont-saint-jean.com website for the 1809 campaign.

i.pinimg.com/originals/ad/2a/09/ad2a0964d6c2b61c4e7111b0c49af427.png

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Michael

Chiming in some time later>>

"or uniform information and majority showed white cuffs."

Actually what you're calling white cuffs are not- you are (or copying) blue cuffs piped white. A vastly different thing.

Did infanterie legere actually have solid (ie coat coloured) cuffs- perhaps. Or even pointed cuffs? Many regiments came from the revolutionary period with exactly the same cuffs as line infantry (a decree of 1793). Though short tailed habit/ surtout became fashionable, or just plain necessary for skirmishers, again many period illustrations show us 'normal legere' full habit being worn. I'd suggest that fewer rather than many existed in the earlier Empire, until 'decreed at a later date' and mass manufactured as such.

That there were differences among all corps to be found cannot be argued. And of this, different periods and issues of clothing changed these things. The best volume I know that clearly shows the variety of cuffs is Almarks by Bukhari 'French Infantry'.

By such I paraphrase Rousselot who, though admitting that regiments retained the 'yellow' (meaning brass) buttons of the revolution, simply failed to paint any in his illustrations that way.

I too am modelling St. Hilaire, but in 1805 where some of the same units were present in this later (incarnated) Division. There is even less precise information about the earlier period/ campaigns, so I have had to use a discretion and 'selective' backdating to customise units.

What you refer to on drummers lace as 'gold/orange' – will not be gold, except perhaps for tete du colone sous-officiers or NCOs, but a pure tape of yes- aurore or orange proper to decorate them.

Company drummers or cornets, while sometimes or in later era having enhanced 'copied' uniforms from tete du colonne, would never have gold lace. Not all regiments had a full band either and it is quite possible that company drummers had in depot a 'parade dress' habit and chapeau that they wore on special events, but not likely on campaign. (Even the Garde Imperiale were treated this way remember- issued and returning after a review their 'new' clothes)!

There are several instances of unique contrasting colours being used within both the 'de ligne and legere' regiments.

On Rousselot
Others disparaging Rousselot as a source is bad; he had extremely wide unfettered access to anything he wanted; including but not limited to extant period articles, army and government manuscripts and administrative correspondence that supports just so much of his artistry, as well as the friendship of other artists and collectors.

He was also humble enough to admit to failing to locate precise information sometimes, and yet again revise something when proof became positive of an error or oversight.

Such factors mitigate for his greater accuracy, not less.
davew

Hello everyone,

I finished my first plate on Tete de Colonne of 57e Ligne in 1809. Now the sources I mainly used were Petit Soldats and Le Plumet-Rigo. I created my own Tambour major based on the earlier uniform and made changes using new facing colors. Am I 100% correct? I doubt it, but this is for painting purposes and as I start my blog I am making an educated guess on the uniforms. Until the day I can get to the French archives and get the unit rosters and inspection reports this is will have to do! Btw this is full dress and during the 1809 early part of the campaign, it was snowing and raining on and off. Most likely, everyone was wearing a greatcoat/shako cover and looked the same!

Please give me your opinion on any changes that need to be made!

Michael

Hi Michael

Looks good, without consulting your sources or mine.
One general thing that concerns me is the similarity to the 3eme, as both units, or a misconstrued source, wear a sky/blue laced orange facing.
Both these units were in IV Corps 1805 so I have researched and modelled.
Some comments on yours:
- I'd think that the colors red and blue on plume and panache would be identical in reality, unless one were depicting an 'older' set?
- Fuslier drummer pompom unlikely to be yellow/red fringe. Company colours at least would apply, not tete du colonne.
- Sapeur aprons were heavy and not self supporting- despite drawings showing no straps or over shoulder leatherwork, it must have been there. They were not worn like a bra (not invented for another 100 years!). Hence the 'chest' lapels would be far less visible.
- Sapeur2- I note few (other sources) drawings give sapeurs collars any piping. Given its regularity on 99% of uniforms, I find this a strange quirk.

Early details and examination of sources here: link

regards
dave

I really hate photobucket.

Dave,

I appreciate your feedback! I didn't notice the different color blue and red in the panache were a different shade! Taken care of now. Majority of the sources has the 3e Ligne in tricolor lace from Napoleon's Line Infantry from Osprey Publishing page 18 "Musicians (1807) sky-blue coat faced red, laced gold, white-plumed bicorn; drummers etc., same, but shakos, red wings, orange or tricolour lace.

The pompon color for the fusilier based on the sources have one in blue and one in yellow. From Napoleon's Line Infantry from Osprey Publishing page 16 says "Fusiliers, tufted pompons,e.g red over yellow." Rigo source which he cites comes from an inspection of the 4th and 5th battalion of 57th Ligne marching to campaign in 1809 has them in red over blue tufted pompon. Also, the sapeur has no piping in one source and orange(aurora) in the other. Most paintings of sapeurs show the apron being worn under the habit in the Otto Manuscript. Maybe the reason is that when the sapeur was working he would take off his habit not to ruin it?
Napoleon's Line Infantry from Osprey Publishing page 20-21 says 57th Line: In c.1809, sky-blue facings, with or without orange lace, red badges and plume, white cords.

Frederic Berjaud's website has helped me with my research and I have been able to support his website with some portraits I have found. I used the new Tambour-major based off the plate he has on his website.

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Finished the 3e Ligne eagle of the 1st Battalion. Also, a captain in surtout from the 3e Ligne and my first Austrian infantry fusilier in shako.

Please any feedback is welcome as I am not very well educated on Austrian uniform details. I have been using this great site for help. link

Stay safe everyone
Michael

great work, thumbs up.

One of the top divisions in the Napoleonic Wars. So sad that he died in combat in 1809. Many other great generals and lesser officers did too. France lost Lannes and Espagne as well. I always enjoyed having Saint-Hilaire's division in a miniature battle! :) Good troops!

Michael
Great work!
I'm not expecting you to change things on my say so but happy that I may assist, just expressing differences where I note them.

Headgear and accoutrements are an exercise in futility and discretion! I agree with your comments on sources. However I'd be very careful about believing everything written in Ospreys- even those 'experts' in 1980's did not have the resources now available (today and on line). A small dissertation ensues.

Pompoms and plumes- so many shapes and colours. The red 'acorn' shape of the revolution was common up to early Empire. Both on chapeaux and later shako. The artillery (a pied) retained it throughout.

Although both 'battalion' colours and 'company' colours existed, overlapping and side by side between regiments, there can hardly be called consistency in the entire army.

I'd caution again that I believe it most likely, regulation of dress followed mostly established 'fashion' already in existence. (Bardins' being a later exception).

Then came spherical pompoms, mostly red following the tradition of the acorn, sometimes enhanced with 'flame' (a la grenade) of the same or a divergent colour. As you have shown, the later 3eme de ligne with red flames over blue pompom. (I personally believe the reverse was likely more prevalent- see Bucquoy).

These placements do not indicate a 'company' style or coloration I believe. What complicated matters now is that the 'tete du colonne' may well change or reverse such colour situations, in order that they themselves become 'distinctive'. Such cannot then be extrapolated to the actual fighting troops.

(As example I point out the number [source documents] of 'line' sapeurs that appear with green in plumes- a colour more associated to chasseurs uniforms (de ligne or garde) than 'grenadiers' company of whom they were actually a part!).

The '1808' regulation change to 4 fusiliers companies, codified the formation and dress from that date- by directing colour of pompoms amongst many other uniform aspects.

Back in 1800 or earlier, some demi-brigades had used a 'battalion' insignia colour instead of company based- skyblue, orange (not aurore) and purple for the 1st to 3rd. These colours were encompassed on plumes short and tall, acorns and pompoms. (Bucquoy shows the variety well).

Thus, my own modelling of the French, lacking specific time and/ or regimental accuracy, reflect this wide variety of uniform detail.

On Sapeurs- I agree with your reflection that many sapeurs are drawn with habits over the apron. I'd conjecture that this again is a 'parade' state of affairs

- leather [animal hide] being thick and not too flexible in such form, being 'under' a buttoned habit (already becoming a tight 'fashion' fitting garment compared to the lax decor of the revolutionary period) would be near impossible to work in. However, neither artists (Rigo apart) nor wargame figure makers vary much from the norm).

NB- 1804 drapeaux do not have a fringe!
See Charrié.

Regards and salut
dave

Michael

This is excellent. I find them immensely useful and I applaud your continuing efforts.

On IR#56 I would have them in helmet in 1809 – there are several threads on TMP on helmets/shakos in 1809 and I have never seen reference to IR#56 in the latter and the accepted default for German regiments in 1809 appears to be the helmet.

I would also have the Stahl-Grün facing colour several shades darker.

Kind regards
Jim

NB- 1804 drapeaux do not have a fringe!
See Charrié.

Plus NB- Even more important- corner ornaments centres are natural silk colours.
Only legere designated units had a silver (Picot) background.
Git painting…
regards d

Jim,

The Austrian helmet is going to take me a while to mash together with a few existing plates, but I will get it done hopefully looking somewhat good. I understand that the majority of the German units wore the helmet and Hungarian wore the shako.

Steel green for IR 56 correct?

Updated based on comments with a WIP of the Austrian helmet. Need to change the colors, but do you think of the shape?. I appreciate the help!

Michael

Michael

Shape of helmet looks good to me.

Yes – steel green for the facings. The 'right' colours for Austrian facings are always a tricky business. I tend to use WJ Rawkins and also the Militär-Almanach for 1808. I think you need a greyer green than you are using for steel green.

Jim

Just another update. Feeling pretty good about the kasket and created Peterwardeiner n.9 grenzer. I went with the white coat, but if brown is correct please let me know. I searched all over and it seems that whenever the Grenzer fought with the Austrian Imperial Army they wore a white uniform and brown was for border defense. It seems in 1812 only 4 regiments were wearing a brown uniform so I went with white for 1809.

This is basically my painting since we are stuck here and I have no painting materials here in Boston.

Michael

Michael, are your plates posted all together somewhere? I see you have the Cent Jours site logo but the 1809 drawings don't appear there. I'm working on Friant's division for 1809.

Jay,

Right now I am just making plates and as I am merely bashing the figures together to change the uniforms and I want to give credit to the real creator of these uniforms. I am right now building uniforms for the Battle of Teugen-Hausen so I will be making plates for 15e Legere, 33e Ligne, 48e Ligne, 108e Ligne and generic plate for 111e Ligne since much is not known. However, first is Saint Hilaire Division and then the Austrians and then finishing with the Friant's, Gudin's and Montbrun's Divisions.

At the moment my pinterst has all the details I have found on uniforms. Here is my page. pinterest.com/boomerlc23

Michael.

MarbotsChasseurs-

Followed sir! Cheers!

Excellent Michael. Thank you!

Updated plates on the 3eme and 57eme Ligne. I will be coming out on my blog with individual unit plates with officers wounded/killed and LdH winners. Also, I will be giving the history of the regiment during the battle. Hopefully, these are easy to see and will help those painting miniatures.

Michael

I finished a few more Austrian models. I added a jager and a grenadier. Could anyone get me a good picture of the Grenadier and Jagers headgear? I want to try to make the grenadiers plate as close as possible. I read that the jagers had a small badge in the middle of their hat that had the battalion number is this correct? Any comments and suggestions are welcomed!

Michael

Fusiliers of the 3rd Ligne 1809. Any comments are welcomed!

If you right-click on the picture and press view image you should be able to get a closer look.

Michael

I've seen the fusiliers with a blue plume, but thought the red tip was only for grenadiers. I've always had this regiment in my OOB, but now that I know about the fusilier plume, they'll be depicted wearing them.

This is the image of the caporal in full dress. I would imagine for this campaign the men would be fighting in greatcoats and shako covers due to the weather at first.

Michael

Grenadiers finished!

Please let me know if my constant posting is becoming annoying!

Michael

in 1809 at Wagram, it was very hot, seemingly also at other battles in the campaign as well, so there is a good chance that the tunic was worn and shako without cover, there you are such a diligent student, you should consult primary sources and not only Rio, Bucquoy prints, for a researcher with your analytical mind – this books is a must

Papi, Ricardo : Eugène und Adam – Der Prinz und sein Maler, Zeighaus Verlag, Berlin 2012

Even if you cannot read one word German, you will find loads of colour prints in best quality.

Also maybe this book is also available in other languages than French

von W,

That book looks amazing.I appreciate the feedback! Right now my focus is only for the early battles when the weather was snow/rain/mud according to most of the sources I have read such as Thiers, Saski, and regimental histories. I have used Rigo and Otto Manuscript very heavily for the drummers, sapeurs, and musicians. The Petit Soldats de Strasbourg has helped guide me with most of the rank and file.

When you say tunic do you mean habit?

Albrecht Adam is one of my favorite painters! I believe you sent me some of his paintings from his famous battle paintings. Just beautiful and you can tell by the way the men are dressed he was actually there. Probably one of the best paintings showing how men actually wore their uniforms is his painting "Combat de Papa June 12,1809". Each french chasseur is dressed just a little different, but still with a regimental appearance.

Thank you for your help!

yes, for tunic – I mean regimental coat or habit

If you're still looking for images of Austrian grenadier 'armchair' fur caps, click 'more' on my blog post:

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followed by the next post.

Cheers, Michael

On Rousselot
Others disparaging Rousselot as a source is bad; he had extremely wide unfettered access to anything he wanted; including but not limited to extant period articles, army and government manuscripts and administrative correspondence that supports just so much of his artistry, as well as the friendship of other artists and collectors.
He was also humble enough to admit to failing to locate precise information sometimes, and yet again revise something when proof became positive of an error or oversight.
Such factors mitigate for his greater accuracy, not less.

Dave,

Well said on Rousselot and I wholeheartedly agree. Well done. Too many like to denigrate those with whom they disagree and cannot compete on any level.

Sincerely,
Kevin

I must have missed where Rousellot was "denigrated." Was something deleted from the thread?

Voltigeurs are finished!

Also, added to my blog as well. Please take a look and let me know what you think. link

Michael

Hello everyone,

I finished a new blog post on Colonel Laurent Schobert. I also made a plate on some of the Etat-major. I was slightly hesitant on what headgear the senior officer would wear. I have seen portraits with only a wide gold band and some with a double band.

Portrait of the Major of the 21e Ligne.

Portrait of a chef de battalion of the 21e Ligne

Lucien Rousselot plate shows a major with a gold band and smaller silver band and a Colonel with just one gold band!

Michael

I haven't posted in this topic in a while, but I updated the blog with the 57e Ligne Regimental Staff

Michael

New update with the Grenadiers of the 57e Ligne. As always I tried to give as many uniform details that are known for Grenadiers. Could they have still worn a bearskin in 1809, sure, but I do not have the records to back up that claim. However, for those that are painting, a bearskin and shako are both shown for the Grenadiers from 1805-1809.

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Thank you for looking. More information on my blog.
Michael

I was able to finish the 57e Ligne Voltigeurs today. Next to the 10e Leger which should be a very tricky one uniform wise. Yet still, some interesting things occurred to the regiment at the battle.

link

Thank you for looking. More information on my blog.
Michael

Hello everyone,

Sorry, it has been a while since I posted, but I have started my master's program for education that is also what they call a career switcher program to become a teacher. I am looking to teach Middle School or High School History. Also, we are moving so that has taken a lot of my previous research and uniform design time up. However, I have been able to finish two plates of the 10e Legere. As you will notice I have put the three most common cuff designs that are represented for the 10e Legere in paintings. I have the inspection report from 1807 of the 10e Legere and it does not give any details on the cuff design sadly. As you can see I did not put any dates on the cuffs other than the 1810-1812 cuffs. So the choice is yours and if you would like more information I will link the page by Frederic Berjaud who goes into great detail about the uniform and when it changed. His site link

Chasseurs

Voltigeurs

Thanks
Michael

It is doubtful that I will ever try to produce St. Hilaire's 1809 Division on my wargame table, but I am enjoying seeing your scholarship Michael.

Bill,

I believe I am in the same boat as you! One day I would like to make a diorama of the battle, but right now small bits of research and uniform editing is what I will be doing for the foreseeable future!

I appreciate the kind comment.

Michael