Help support TMP


"General de Division Saint-Hilaire Division 1809" Topic


13 Posts

All members in good standing are free to post here. Opinions expressed here are solely those of the posters, and have not been cleared with nor are they endorsed by The Miniatures Page.

For more information, see the TMP FAQ.


Back to the Napoleonic Discussion Message Board

Back to the Napoleonic Painting Guides Message Board



Areas of Interest

Napoleonic

2,720 hits since 16 Jul 2016
©1994-2019 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

MarbotsChasseurs16 Jul 2016 2:16 p.m. PST

Hello everyone,

I have been having painters block so I decided to work on some uniform guides for whenever I decide to paint again. I am currently working on Marshal Davout's 3rd Corps in 1809. Here is General de Division Louis-Vincent-Joseph Le Blond, comte de Saint-Hilaire division which includes 10e Leger, 3e Ligne, 57e Ligne, 72e Ligne, and 105e Ligne. Sadly, there is no evidence I can find from the 72e Ligne and 105e Ligne has only evidence of them in greatcoats for the elite companies in Spain I believe.
[URL=http://s1364.photobucket.com/user/Boomerlc23/media/10e%20Leger%201809_zpsnnphtbky.png.html]

[/URL]
[URL=http://s1364.photobucket.com/user/Boomerlc23/media/3e%20Ligne%201809_zpsmgi0vik8.png.html]
[/URL]
[URL=http://s1364.photobucket.com/user/Boomerlc23/media/57eme%20Ligne%201809_zpsgn91e95o.png.html]
[/URL]
[URL=http://s1364.photobucket.com/user/Boomerlc23/media/105e%20Ligne_zpsnbl0qcum.png.html]
[/URL]

72e Ligne will be given the common red plume for grenadier and green and yellow plume for the voltigeurs. Let me know what you think and if you have any info of the 72e.

I am currently finished with about 14 of the 20 regiments in Davout's 3rd Corps.

Michael

Zippee16 Jul 2016 2:33 p.m. PST

Pretty sure the 10th Léger are very well documented in having red cuffs.

Probably the most painted division from the entire wars – and most commonly deployed Corps :)

MarbotsChasseurs16 Jul 2016 2:52 p.m. PST

Zippe,

This is my source I believe the artist is E.Fort, but could be wrong. I agree the most painted division and Corps, but I wanted to try my best to give people who are very detail minded the most accurate information I could find for 1809.[URL=http://s1364.photobucket.com/user/Boomerlc23/media/10e%20carabiner%201809_zpsyernabqe.jpg.html]

[/URL]
[URL=http://s1364.photobucket.com/user/Boomerlc23/media/10e%20sapeur%201809_zpsroxfjmiy.jpg.html]
[/URL]
[URL=http://s1364.photobucket.com/user/Boomerlc23/media/10e%20volt%20and%20fifer%201809_zpsgq8yquth.jpg.html]
[/URL]
[URL=http://s1364.photobucket.com/user/Boomerlc23/media/10e%20%20drummer%20chasseurs%201809_zpsfesjuadn.jpg.html]
[/URL]

I used E. Fort, Boisselier,Carl Collection and Lucien Rousselot for uniform information and majority showed white cuffs.

von Winterfeldt16 Jul 2016 11:18 p.m. PST

I agree with Zippee that the pointed cuffs come up later, when you look at the "Otto" manuscript light infantry had still in 1808 the usual cuff and cuff flaps style like line infantry and seemingly 4 buttons on the cuff flap were en vogue was well.

Fort, Boisselier etc. – have to be used carefully there they are modern artists – whereas Rousselot give an good overview but couldn't be a study for each regiment

MDavout17 Jul 2016 2:55 p.m. PST

I belong to Les Grenadiers du 67eme<https://www.facebook.com/groups/750959085009830/> We are a Napoleonic Reenactment group based in the US. Needless to say, I spent a great deal of time researching the 57e. If anyone would like more information on the regiment they are welcome to visit our facebook page or simply PM me.

Couple of things I wanted tp share with you. Below is a pic of one of our grenadiers.
<http://s32.photobucket.com/user/robjohns01/media/13428388_293234617688786_88096010605424657_n_zpspter4aih.jpg.html>
One of the things that is sometimes overlooked in recent images is the placement of the brass shako plate. The top point overlaps the cocade and touches the center blue circle.

Brechtel198 Supporting Member of TMP17 Jul 2016 5:47 p.m. PST

One of the aspects of the study of uniformology should be to avoid sweeping statements.

The Grande Armee had no army-wide uniform regulations until the Bardin Regulations of 1812 and those probably were not applied army-wide until 1813 and there is a good chance that they did not apply to the French units in Spain.

And it should be noted that shako design and size could vary from regiment to regiment, as would the size and design of the shako plates. After the diamond-shaped shako plate gave way to the more elaborate eagle plates, the designs even in the same regiment would vary, the elite, center, and cannon companies having different designs. The 56th Ligne even had a five-sided shako plate.

A handy reference are the publications of the Musee de l'Armee which covers the collection in the museum with photographs of original examples of shakos with their plates and tricolor cockades. Some of the shako plates come to the bottom of the cockade, some cover different rings of the cockade with some coming to the center blue 'dot' of the cockade. Even the cockades are different in their construction.

There are excellent primary source material that shows the two types of shako plates (eagle and diamond-shaped) that do as you describe and that also do not. The Bourgeois of Hamburg and others show both ways of the different shako plates in relation to the cockade and for units that didn't wear a shako plate, the point is moot.

Brechtel198 Supporting Member of TMP18 Jul 2016 5:56 a.m. PST

Otto Manuscript
Unit Rank Shako Plate Top of Plate to Cockade
3d Line Sapeur Flaming Grenade Not Touching Cockade
3d Line Gren Flaming Grenade Not Touching Cockade
3d Line Volt Eagle Bottom of Red Ring
8th Line Off Eagle Red Ring
8th Line Voltigeur Eagle Not Touching Cockade
8th Line Officer Eagle White Ring
8th Line Fusilier Eagle White Ring
21st Line Voltigeur Eagle Bottom of Blue Center
21st Line Fusilier Eagle Bottom of Blue Center
22d Line Grenadier Diamond Middle of Red Ring
22d Line Voltigeur Diamond Middle of Red Ring
24th Line Voltigeur Eagle Bottom of Red Ring
45th Line Grenadier Diamond Middle of Red Ring
46th Line Officer Eagle Bottom of Blue Center
46th Ligne Voltigeur Eagle Bottom of Blue Center
63d Ligne Officer Flaming Grenade Not Touching Cockade
63d Ligne Grenadier Flaming Grenade White Ring
85th Ligne Sapeur Diamond Bottom of Red Ring
85th Ligne Officer Diamond Bottom of Blue Center
85th Ligne Grenadier Diamond Bottom of Blue Center
85th Ligne Officer Diamond Bottom of Blue Center
85th Ligne Voltigeur Diamond Bottom of Blue Center
94th Ligne Voltigeur Eagle Blue Center
96th Ligne Fusilier Diamond Bottom of White Ring
96th Ligne Voltigeur Diamond Bottom of White Ring
9th Legere Chasseur Diamond Not Touching Cockade
16th Legere Sapeur Eagle Bottom of White Ring
16th Legere Carabinier Flaming Grenade Not Touching Cockade
16th Legere Chasseur Eagle Bottom of Red Ring

French Army Museum Examples
Napoleon et ses Soldats, Volumes I & II

Volume I

-Page 57, center top: Middle of the blue center (eagle plate, line infantry).
-Page 58, center top: middle of the white ring (diamond plate, line infantry).
-Page 58, right top: bottom of the white ring (eagle plate, light infantry)
-Page 75, bottom left, below the cockade (line infantry cannon company, eagle plate)
-Page 79, top left, in the red ring (6th Ligne, diamond plate).
-Page 79, middle top, bottom of the red ring (diamond plate 114th Ligne).
-Page 79 middle right, in the white ring (36th Ligne, eagle plate)
-Page 83, middle right, in the blue center (diamond plate, line infantry).
-Page 84, middle left, bottom of the blue center (eagle plate 122d Ligne).
-Page 84, middle right, behind the cockade (diamond plate, 102d Ligne).
-Page 84, bottom left, in the blue center (eagle plate, 79th Ligne).
-Page 85, middle center, in the blue center (eagle plate, 24th Leger).
-Page 86, top center, middle of the blue center, (eagle plate, 3d Legere).
-Page 86, top right, bottom of the white ring, (eagle plate, light infantry).
-Page 86, middle left, bottom of the red ring (diamond plate, 10th Legere).

Volume II

-Page 55, top left, middle of the blue center (eagle plate, 37th Ligne).
-Page 55, middle top, middle of the red ring (eagle plate, 37th Ligne).
-Page 55, top right, middle of the white ring (eagle plate, 76th Ligne).
-Page 63, middle left, top of the red ring (eagle plate, five sided, 56th Ligne).

Conclusions:

Uniformity of shakos and plaques/plates were to be found within regiments, but definitely not across the spectrum of line and light infantry regiments. There were at least five different general types of plaques-diamond, eagle, pentagonal, flaming grenade, and Vernet shows one more-the sunburst plaque.
Cockades were not of uniform design either-the red and white rings and blue center were not of uniform size. And the plaques/plates were not of uniform size within designs either.
So, to state that all of them on shakos reached to the blue center of the cockade is incorrect.

MDavout19 Jul 2016 9:39 a.m. PST

Kevin – I didn't state "all". Perhaps I should have stated it as, "Based on my observation of many museum examples, the great majority show the diamond plate overlapping the bottom of the cocade". Clearly, the examples you indicate above prove that.

GlacierMI22 Jul 2016 12:31 p.m. PST

well MDavout, I can honestly say that photo took my breath away.. how fantastic..

Brechtel198 Supporting Member of TMP23 Jul 2016 3:51 a.m. PST

I didn't state "all". Perhaps I should have stated it as, "Based on my observation of many museum examples, the great majority show the diamond plate overlapping the bottom of the cocade".

Here's what you posted:

One of the things that is sometimes overlooked in recent images is the placement of the brass shako plate. The top point overlaps the cocade and touches the center blue circle.

That statement indicates that you meant 'all' did it not?

And, yes, the examples shown indicate that the majority overlap the cockade at some point.

What has to be taken into consideration, again, is that shako plates, as well as shakos, were of different sizes and designs and the plates were also placed in a non-uniform place on the front of the shako.

This not only happened in the infantry, but in the artillery, the Guard, and the light cavalry.

And sometimes there was no shako plate, no cockade, or the cockade was mounted on the side of the shako, as in some light infantry units.

marshalGreg09 Aug 2016 5:52 a.m. PST

MC

I ran across some info from E. Fort as well. It indicated that the 105th de Ligne had musicians in light blue facings. With much evidence indicating the tambours wore very similar dress to the musician staff, perhaps they too are in the Lt Blue with yellow lace.
I believe this will be the direction I go unless something proves more solid.

Looking forward to your results for Morand's Division.

MG

MarbotsChasseurs19 Apr 2019 12:15 p.m. PST

3e Regiment d'infanterie tete de column 1809. I used Le Plummets pictures with the tricolor lace. However, I have seen the painting by lucien rousselot that shows them with a gold/orange lace. I know the tambour major isn't correct, but I broke my old computer that had paint on it so I can not correct the mistakes. Hopefully, will be getting a new one so I can edit more plates from centjours.mont-saint-jean.com website for the 1809 campaign.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ad/2a/09/ad2a0964d6c2b61c4e7111b0c49af427.png

link
Michael

Sorry - only verified members can post on the forums.