"US Mid/Late Infantry options" Topic

So I am putting together my first army and I decided to do the 3rd ID with mostly infantry. As of now, I have a plastic rifle company, a platoon of para from the open fire box, five sherms from the open box, a tank security section, a armored artillery set (105 priests, aop, etc, and a set of 76mm sherms from PSC. The majority of models are Battlefront. So what should I add on here and which manufacture is has the most bang for the buck? I feel I need some 81mm mortars, anti-tank guns, jeeps, a antitank platoon (which one) and what else? Thanks for your help in advance!!!!

That is a strange definition of 'mostly infantry'…

I am assuming you are doing Flames of War for your rule system. So after taking your infantry HQ and two infantry platoons as per your requirements you will have to determine how much you have left to spend on points. Late War games tend to be 1420 to 1500 points.

Having at least one platoon of tanks is a good thing. Taking the M7 Priests is also a good and right there you may just about be at your points limit. You might have enough to field the paratrooper platoon and maybe mortars.

Personally the American AT guns are not worth taking in my opinion. I would take a recon unit of some type (jeep and a half track) and you cannot go wrong with having an AOP (air observation plane) the Grasshopper can be used to either spot for artillery or prevent your opponent from setting up ambushes.

"Taking the M7 Priests is also a good and right there you may just about be at your points limit. You might have enough to field the paratrooper platoon and maybe mortars."

The very reason I cringe at the thought of FOW.

Buy what you want and play with it. If it is anywhere near to what the guys would of actually had and fits reasonably in your given playing area, shouldn't that be right and not some arbitrary point limit? If you find you are too easily beating your opponent for the fight to be challenging just handicap yourself with the terrain, ammo supply, etc.

frankly, I like the fight where I'm out gunned, but if I can use some skill and tactics I can put a demoralizing hurt on the opponent.

Thanks for the advice. Even though I have all those toys listed above I really want to stay mostly infantry. Just need some tanks to keep people honest on the flanks and out of the artillery park.

If you're running infantry than I suggest mortars and a field artillery battery. You'll find a supporting platoon of TDs more useful than tanks. I also heavily suggest just going and joining the official Flames of War forum where you'll get a lot more help and none of the grognard hate that TMP has become so famous for.

If you really do want to produce a force from the US 3rd Infantry Division, then as Dameon suggests you want to go with towed artillery, not M7 Priest SPGs.

The US Army infantry divisions did not have any integral armored formations in WW2. The armored forces supporting them day-by-day were "independent" battalions, which were theoretically assigned to divisions on an as-needed basis, but in practice most often stayed with the same division throughout the majority of a campaign.

That said, in Italy / MTO (where the 3rd ID initially fought) the independent tank and tank destroyer battalions seem to have been moved around more than in France / ETO (where 3rd ID landed in Operation Dragoon in August 1944).

The armored formations attached to the 3rd Infantry Division included the 756th Tank Battalion (Sherman medium tanks, including DD Shermans, and Stuart light tanks, mostly M5A1s) from Operation Dragoon onward. Also the 601st Tank Destroyer Battalion (a very experienced TD unit, equipped with M10 tank destroyers) worked with the 3rd ID from October of 1943 through the end of the war.

I haven't found any indications that an armored field artillery battalion (the formation that would have had the M7 Priest) was ever attached, nor do I expect one was. I don't even think there WERE any independent armored field artillery battalions in MTO or ETO. The armored field artillery battalions were integral formations in the US Armored Divisions. Infantry divisions had their own artillery, but it was towed guns.

The artillery in the 3rd Infantry Division included the 9th, 10th, 39th and 41st Field Artillery Battalions. These were all integral to the 3rd Infantry Division, and were all towed artillery.

Or so I've read. Wasn't there at the time.

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

My usual theory for building a FoW force is to take all the combat platoons I can, and all at full strength. Then add the Battalion weapons platoons (Mortars and MGs). Platoon of tanks and a platoon of AT guns. Field Artillery battery.

It's a heavy on support for a single company, but I always assumed that it's just the leading company of a battalion.

Mark

Nafziger in The American Army in World War II, Volume 3, Independent Armored, Mechanized Cavalry, Artillery, Anti-Aircraft and Engineer Battalions lists a number of independent armored field artillery battalions.

For example we have the 58th which was assigned to support the 29th ID at Omaha. Some further information:
link

Reading here you will find mention of the 58th firing in support of 9AD along with that Division's own armored field artillery battalion the 73rd
link

And here is the book on this unit
link

There are numerous other examples.

Marc

I don't know about the 3rd ID but some infantry regimental cannon companies were issued the M7 in place of their towed 105mm M3's

Nafziger … lists a number of independent armored field artillery battalions.

For example we have the 58th which was assigned to support the 29th ID at Omaha.

Another day on TMP. Another day when something new was learned. Another example of time well spent.

Thanks! Did not know that.

Spurred by the discussion, I did some further research into the particulars of the units attached to the 3rd ID.

I can not yet claim that my information is complete. I have found the full list of attachments during the ETO campaign ( link ), but I have not found equivalent complete records of 3rd ID attachments in Italy or North Africa.

Even so I can say that there were multiple occasions were Armored Field Artillery Battalions were attached to the 3rd ID!

Attachments of units with M7 Priests include:
- 69th Armored FA Battalion 11 July to 8 November, 1944
- 93rd Armored FA Battalion 18 to 28 November, 1944
- Artillery units from 6th AD, 14 to 18 March, 1945
- CC B of 14th AD (including 499th Armored FA Battalion, 8 to 10 April, 1945.

So … I must conclude there IS in fact a historical basis for M7 Priests in a 3rd ID force. And my research has not found all attachments during 3rd ID's service in MTO or NATO, so there may be other examples as well.

And as number4 mentions, it might be possible that the regimental cannon companies operated M7s. This has not appeared in any of the info I've seen, but it could have happened.

Still, it seems to me a relatively minor likelyhood. If I were building a gaming force with a historical eye towards the 3rd ID (a good choice, BTW, as it was active in several interesting campaigns and battles), I would put in my core force some towed artillery (105mm and/or 155mm) in support, and some M4 Shermans and M10 TDs on the board.

Then if I wanted to expand my attachment options over time (to keep it interesting), I might add M7 Priests, 4.2in Chemical Mortars (generally used for HE support -- the US Ary "Chemical Mortar" formations never fired chemicals, other than smoke, during the whole war), and even perhaps some M36 tank destroyers -- at least one company from the 636th TD Battalion was attached with CC B of the 14th AD for 3 days in April of 1945.

But I'm not building the force …

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

M10 td would be interesting.
Shermans were often attached in support so they're another option.
If you like 105 then you could consider a pair of m4 105.
I don't play fow and haven't checked out 3id.

The usual Infantry Cannon Company was formed on T/O 7-14, with towed guns, but there was a T/O 7-14S dated 26th Feb 1944. This did show a Company armed with SP 105-mm pieces rather than towed. I never did have any luck finding out how many and which Regts got SP guns, what few possibilities I could google up all seemed to be in the PTO rather than Europe though.

I think there were also some non-Div Armd Fd Arty Bns, which could be allocated to Div support.

Gary