"Drum-Majors in Action during the Napoleonic Wars " Topic

There's of course a difference between a drummer (boy) that marches behind his company, and a real musician that plays in a regimental band. So the training might indeed be between a couple of weeks and several years.

It's supposed to take 15 years to learn to play the Uilleann pipes properly, although I don't know how one can tell the difference.
Maybe "sounds good enough to me!" is in the ear of the beholder.

Seriously though…
This thread is a prime example of what makes Napoleonic "Discussion" so hilarious.
Remember the ill-fated Napoleonic History board? It was a vain attempt to separate "serious" Napoleonic jibber-jabber from the cat fight hissy fit arguments. Problem was, everybody thought that THEY were the serious dudes.

Keep it up. You're doing fine.

I also think that Napoleonic Discussion should be a free fire zone, with no DH for bad behavior.
How could anyone take this board seriously?

@WS – So true. it's a bit sad if grown men make fools out of themselfs, but it's also really funny. Especially if they act like 'very dangerous' academics. :--)

How could anyone take this board seriously?

It's all for your entertainment actually…. enjoy!

Gazz, leaving aside the very scary doubling back over this entire thread to pick out exact times, dates, and tone of alleged insults to you and your muse, seriously, I think Brech can fight his own lost causes, he doesn't need a cheerleader. And, condescending use of ''' against Ben's post………..

With new posters, a lot of fresh ridicule, (which I'm guessing you think is all about your opponents) new sources questioning yours and Brech's position, and Eltings dubious use of unsourced, and secondary material, and at least two new works, and sources disproving the whole drummer thing, I think he who lives by the minutia, dies by the same.

So,to Batman and Robin, (you and Brech can argue over who is who, I'm clearly not the joker LOL) answer peoples questions? c'mon, you go on about 'debate' debate with these people, I personally dont care if it took 100 years to train Napoleons personal arse-wiper, And as you both have said it's time to leave this subject, I'm guessing the usual 'turn up-talk down to everyone-throw out quotes from dubious sources-then suggest leaving it all when people turn up to disprove your trivial claims is entering the final stage?

John

Hi Kevin,

I started this great debate with my comment that, " That stuff about taking five years to train a drummer is pure baloney. It takes 6 months worst case to bring a drummer up to speed. I don't know where this nonsense comes from. " I believe more than sufficient evidence has been provided to substantiate my original statement. You disagree.

So, Id like to resolve it once and for all. I propose the following. I am retired. I am not a musician. I will take up a proper rope tensioned drum and learn how to play it. I am proposing that I will learn all the calls as designated in the Reglement. I will additionaly train in all the major marches. I, will execute (in a simulated manner) all the evolutions in the Ecole de Peleton and the Ecole de Battalion marching and drumming as appropriate. I will of course use a drum instructor as my representative of the drum major. I will keep a log as well as videos to demonstrate my progress. In that manner we will have precise timings as to duration of training required to become a competent field drummer.

I'll allow you to pick an experienced drummer to indicate when I have reached a level of competence to be considered ready to field with the battalion.

Are you game?

I wandered in here from the parlor. So this is the basement huh? 😱

6 pages and 258 posts on the training of Napoleonic drummers? All of this can be settled quite easily. Simply change the rule that "All French are +3" to "All French are +4"

And a full Dawghouse to boot!

And people wonder why I walked away from Nappies in 1974 and never went back.

I'm sure you were missed Otto. It's a good job you've managed to come to terms with it though and move on.

Kevin, can I just check something please? You're not using 'marplot' as a personal attack are you? I'm sure this has come up before and I was sure you wouldn't complain about personal attacks whilst slipping a few in 'under the radar', so to speak.

So… was Monty a better drummer than Patton or not?

was Monty a better drummer than Patton or not?

I doubt we'll ever know. Elting didn't say anything on the subject.

How on earth can you compare American and British drumming schools Norman? Apples and Oranges.

And why do you feel it is appropriate to refer to Viscount Montgomery in that familiar manner? Only the men who he commanded earned the right to speak of him so informally. Yet, you allow General Patton his full surname. This mean-spirited insinuation only serves to lower the tone of our discourse.

MDavout

No, you started the diversion of the original topic started by Tango01.

Anyway, I find your request to Kevin concerning your offer to see how long it would take you to learn to play the drums at fault. Firstly, for all we know, you may already be able to play the drums and we would have no way of knowing this. Not that I am accusing you of cheating, of course. LOL

Secondly, you have ignored the 'under the stress of combat' part. However, to address that, while you learn, will members be able to fire at you with muskets (not re-enacting ones but real ones firing actual balls), and can we also fire cannons at you, both ball and canister? And of course, can we also charge you on horseback with swords and lances and on foot with the bayonet and attempt to harm and kill you? Any 'accidental' damage done to the musical equipment, will, of course, be paid for.

I am sure you will agree that allowing members to do this would completely fulfil the requirements of learning and playing the drums under the stress of combat?

By John 54

So, according to you, a member should not try to prove that what another member has stated was incorrect? Right, got it. With that kind of logic I can well believe your claim that you come here for a laugh while drinking beer. LOL

Ottoathome

And yet you still find yourself reading the Napoleonic threads? LOL

This is an interesting passage from Crowdy's, Napoleon's Infantry Handbook. I'm providing it in full, because it might be of general interest too:

38. Cornetist (cornet)
This was a type of musician who played a small horn (cornet), rather like a post horn. There were experiments with using cornetists as signalers in the light infantry battalions in 1792 but this innovation failed to spread. The decrees of 22 Ventose XII (13 March 1804) and 2nd Complementary Day XIII (19 September 1805) revived the experiment of 1792 by introducing the cornetists into the new voltigeur companies attached to light and line infantry regiments respectively. There were two cornetists per company in place of the usual drummers. The calls were primarily for reassembly and maneuver. Education was slower and more difficult than using a drum, and lessons were generally provided by the chief musician. Whereas any intelligent soldier could pick up a drum and beat it in the thick of battle, they could not do the same with a cornet. Therefore if the cornetists were killed or injured, the commander had to rely on voice commands alone, something which often proved problematic over distance or in the din of battle. Whistles do not appear to have been widely used by the French, although they had been used in 1792 by Batavian (Dutch) troops in French service to good effect.

The important passage in regard to this thread would be:

Education was slower and more difficult than using a drum, and lessons were generally provided by the chief musician. Whereas any intelligent soldier could pick up a drum and beat it in the thick of battle, they could not do the same with a cornet.

Gazzola

It's Schadenfreude

Is this a morphed version of the classic phalanx maneuvers vs. junior high marching band debate? It is good to see the oldies get an update.

Ah. Good times.

I though Schadenfreude had been discredited.

Ah Gazz, as usual you cherry pick what to answer, I'll repost the unanswered part of my last post, in the vain hope you'll address them.

'With new posters, a lot of fresh ridicule, (*edit* with even more since i posted this) (which I'm guessing you think is all about your opponents) new sources questioning yours and Brech's position, and Eltings dubious use of unsourced, and secondary material, and at least two new works, and sources disproving the whole drummer thing, I think he who lives by the minutia, dies by the same.

So,to Batman and Robin, (you and Brech can argue over who is who, I'm clearly not the joker LOL) answer peoples questions? c'mon, you go on about 'debate' debate with these people, I personally dont care if it took 100 years to train Napoleons personal arse-wiper, And as you both have said it's time to leave this subject, I'm guessing the usual 'turn up-talk down to everyone-throw out quotes from dubious sources-then suggest leaving it all when people turn up to disprove your trivial claims is entering the final stage?'

John

18 weeks should do it.

link

No, no, no – you don't understand

Wonder how long it took to train this guy?

YouTube link

18 weeks should do it.

I suppose if you add course one [two-weeks], with courses two and three [18 weeks], that would be what…. 20 weeks.
Which is what, about five months?

'Wonder how long it took to train this guy?'

Ten years of course. He's worked with the Beatles, AC/DC and Vanessa Mae.

Haven't you been following this thread?

I don't think you people are treating this with the seriousness it deserves! where are your sources? SOURCES!!!! Maybe if you read the material, from the works (that's 'books' to normal plebians) you could contribute, Bah! your all Marplops.

LOL

John

My money is on MDavout completing his training.

I am currently shopping this as a short run series with The History Channel giving it the same credibility as The Curse of Oak Island. I am trying to land the same announcer they use.

"Could it be???? A retired non-musician…learning to drum proficiently…in five months…on Oak Island?"

Make it so, Doctor X

Editor in Chief Bill

Best post so far, me thinks.

Yes,this thread could use a lot more kawaii.

Does any of this even matter?

The rudiments are the techniques or "micro-phrases" that are the basis for military drum compositions …

"Most are undatable and emerged over centuries of practice of anonymous military drumming, in Europe, and probably at the start medieval court musicians, "troubadours" or other "baladins", travelling musicians, as evidenced by the imagery of the time (but they often played with a stick in one hand and a flute in the other, which is in opposition to the principle of the rudiments). Oral transmission of these rudiments was the rule in the army (the drum was "beaten" to walk ("marcher", in French, hence the word "march") in pace in the infantry, consisting of "commoners", "soldiers", non-literate), except for a few scores for instructors (as the "Instruction pour les tambours" ("instruction for the drums") 1754, in France). Some think they are of Swiss origin, because the oldest European military use is Swiss (XVth century, initially for the march of pikemen and halberdiers mercenaries' battalions). Yet Thoinot Arbeau, a Frenchman, has written scores (with music notes and onomatopoeia) of drums of the French army in "Orchésographie" already in 1588, making it the first written drum method in the world. In addition, the drumming was played with two sticks long ago by the Chinese, Japanese, Mongolian and Turkish, the latter bringing their military practice in Europe (Ottoman Janissaries), already since the Capture of Constantinople in 1453…"
More here
link

Amicalement
Armand

Welcome back, Armand, you were missed.

You have to read Schadenfreude in the original German.
None of the popular translations are reliable.

Strangely pleased to hear that

Many thanks Kevin… (smile)

Good threads!…I enjoyed them from jail!. (smile)

Amicalement
Armand

Guys,
Actually, my offer of learning the drum and keeping a log is not as crazy as it seems. Before this thread started, I was planning on learning the drum. My first lesson is in two weeks. Anyway, I'll keep a log and see how a 65 year old can do. FYI – If I thought it took five years to learn to be functional, I wouldn't even try.

Ok Gazolla, you posted,

No, you started the diversion of the original topic started by Tango01.

You could say that I started the diversion and I agree. And it's a good thing I did. I found the quoted statement by Col Elting to be in error. I knew that it was both logically wrong and experientially wrong. My wife has her degree in music and teaches fife. As well she is a reenactor for both our Napoleonic unit "les Grenadiers du 57e Ligne and Civil War. By association, I have a good sense of what it takes to learn these instruments. But don't take my word for it. All the postings on this thread by more learned scholars than myself have proven that.

Gazolla your next paragraph,

Secondly, you have ignored the 'under the stress of combat' part. However, to address that, while you learn, will members be able to fire at you with muskets (not re-enacting ones but real ones firing actual balls), and can we also fire cannons at you, both ball and canister? And of course, can we also charge you on horseback with swords and lances and on foot with the bayonet and attempt to harm and kill you? Any 'accidental' damage done to the musical equipment, will, of course, be paid for.

You will have to help me with this one. On what planet does a drummer learn to play the paradiddle while 'under the stress of combat'. VW wrote on this earlier. This may be a bit of a stretch, but I am assuming the drummer learned to play before he was thrown into combat – kind of like the fusilier learned the reglement before going into combat. I thought the progression was Train – Campaign – Battle. Am I missing something?

I am sure you will agree that allowing members to do this would completely fulfil the requirements of learning and playing the drums under the stress of combat?

I don't know, dude, I'm still missing some pieces here.

Apropos of not very much here is the current proper army Drums courses.

link

N.B. The length of courses.

Your wasting your time MD, Brech is no longer 'debating' on this thread, as too many people are now questioning him, and Gazz is now trying to laugh it off, and play nice, now His gang leader has stopped clicking his fingers in a 'West side Story' styly.

I, however, think it's a great idea! learn that drum, pound that pigskin, etc.

John the Marplop

While the conversation may have moved on while I have been otherwise engaged in more useful activities, it might be worth noting that, in the Georgian period, a Royal Marines drummer, who had to be able to do his job in action both on land and at sea, was expected to be able to go from new recruit to fit for service in about four months.

MDavout

Being of the same age, I applaud your musical activity. However, if you really 'knew' it was both 'logically wrong and experimentally wrong' you would not need to endeavour in your proposed training and log?

As I stated before, you may already be able to play the drums and there is no way of knowing that or at what level you may have already reached?

Having no musical abilities myself, I bow to your wife's skill in that area and hopefully your forthcoming ability.

It was not about 'learning' under combat or someone being actually taught to play in made up or real battle conditions, it was about being able to maintain the required high level of skill and accuracy when actually under the stress of combat. Those who may well be good at playing the drums in peacetime, in camp, on the parade ground or even as a present day reenactor in a pretend battle, may not be quite so good under the stress of combat. That level, should they live long enough, would come in time.

You have still not replied to the request for members to be allowed to shoot at you while you play and try to kill you with cannons, muskets, swords, lances and bayonets. And of course, allow 'volunteers' to be blown up and mutilated around you, which, I'm sure, would never affect a good drummer?

If they live in close proximity, I do hope you have warned your neighbours about your planned long term endeavour? LOL

By John 54

I find it rather comical that you are still posting, since you claimed you only came here for a laugh and to drink beer.

And, although other members have stopped debating the topic, you only feel compelled to mention Brechtel198. That sounds a bit like stalking.

As to your comment about me, my dear sir, I always play nice. LOL

I now have a mental image of a camp, somewhere near Boulogne, with a French regiment preparing to depart for Austerlitz.

'Are you coming with us, Francois?'

'Sorry guys, you know I've only been learning the drums for six months. I know you're all qualified to get shot now, load your musket under fire and know what all the drum pieces sound like, but I need to master walking and drumming at the same time. You don't want me crumbling under fire and playing some freestyle jazz.'

A year goes by and the same unit is preparing to head over to Jena.

'Sure we can't tempt you Francois?'

'I'd love to, but it's only been 18 months so you don't want to risk me missing a beat in combat when the shooting starts.'

Another year.

'Friedland, Francois?'

'If only…I managed to keep up the drumming with some local urchins screaming in my ears, so I'll get there.'

Another year.

'Quick trip to Madrid, Francois'

'Guys, I just need to stop looking at the drum major for my cue…'

Another year.

'Let's hit the Danube, Francois'

'Just give me six months and I'm SO on it.'

The next year.

In his excitement to get into action, Francois tumbles down some stairs whilst en route to a garrison in Germany/Spain/Italy and breaks his leg, but fortunately qualifies for a disability pension. He tells yarns to admiring small boys in the park about his extensive experience and the 'gig' he's got lined up doing a session for Beethoven. In five years time, of course.

Ben, that is very funny,
and Gazz, I just find it funny, when people come on these threads, talk down to everyone who disagrees with them, and insinuate that theirs is the only view, as was said earlier on this thread;
' it's a bit sad if grown men make fools out of themselfs, but it's also really funny. Especially if they act like 'very dangerous' academics. :--)'
then run away when more and more people question them, and other people are still posting the opposite view to you and Brech, who, lets be honest, were the majority of 'one side' So, in the absense of Brech, what do you think, straight question, in light of everybody elses view that the original timeframe was nonsense, including primary sources. ie
''Bartosz-Mertz makes it perfectly clear in his seminal work on percussive military instruments during the period that proficiency was expected of a French drummer after no more than one year. And since his primary sources include von Mootz, Vicomte de Ercles and Hoche it might be well to folow his lead.'
Annnnnnnnnd, go!

John

Oh, and, in proper style, you keep going on about me 'drinking beer'
(a), so what? does it bear repetition?, and
(b) it smacks of your obsessive grasping of a non-related fact, and not letting go, like a terrier, remember when someone posted a less than flattering pic of Napoleon as a frog, or something, first you got all huffy about 'the great man' then, weirdly, kept going on about a statue of Wellington with a traffic cone on its head, you just wouldn't shut up about it, people seemed concerned that you were 'ok'

I suggest politly, for the sake of your happiness, and sanity, read all the recent posts, and then, look deep inside yourself, and think maybe, just maybe, Eltings secondary, unsourced assertions, may just be a copied typo?

John