"BG vs BKC" Topic

Having gone through lots of rule books for WW2 (Crossfire, Bolt Action, RapidFire, Batteground, Fireball Forward, etc) I have come down to 2 which catch my eye:
Battlegroup Overlord and Bliztkrieg Commander.
I am using a 6x4 foot table (sometimes only 4x4 foot) with 1/72nd plastics and seek to do actions based on supported company level… preferably using figures on multiple base rather than individual figures.
So, in your wide experience, which set would you recommend for N.W.Europe 1944-45 ???

Ta

Definitely BKC….it has stood the test of time, easy to understand and play, provides "realistic" results. Personally, I like the command mechanics (you're not guaranteed to do what you want), and I like the subtleties of having to remove damage dice at the end of each turn; do you concentrate on destroying vehicles or breaking up formations and creating "friction" for the enemy?

I have had a similar experience, with similar aims. I found that Battleground really requires a bigger table. I've settled on Bolt Action, but using historical match-ups rather than points. The compressed range scales of Bolt Action allow some meaningful tank manoeuvres on a smaller table.

I also love BKC, it is the best WW2 game I have played.

I havent played Battleground but BKC is pretty fun.
Some people get put off by the command system, so maybe read about it first a bit, but its easy to play, easy to teach and it moves along at a good pace.

I've been meaning to get BKC, but think I'll wait until the Pendraken version is released. The second edition is available on Lulu last time I looked though.

The Battlegroup books are amazing btw.

One further consideration: BKC is a one-book product. It has complete army lists for the entire war. The Battlegroup series requires you to buy "theater" books should you wish to branch out.

I'm in the anything BUT BKC camp – a game that can't even bother to try and get armor penetration correct is not worth looking at IMHO.

what do you mean by "can't even bother"?

I think you are comparing chalk and cheese – BKC is designed for large scale gaming at the Battalion or Brigade level, whereas BG models action down to the platoon level, with some really good section manoevering mechanisms. Both great rulesets, but aimed at different command levels.

> what do you mean by "can't even bother"?

Just what I said. IMHO, any set of rules where 5 tanks can reliably penetrate 5 times the armor thickness of one tank is not even trying.

Fellows, he is talking about Battlegroup, not Battleground. Two different games!

My understanding was that BKC was really meant for a much larger scale than "company plus support," although I suppose you could just count every stand as a squad and play a very, very small game. Still, I think at least a battalion level game would ebe necessary to get the most out of BKC.

I am less familiar with Battlegroup, since it is still relatively new. Be aware that while you certainly can use multibased models with BG, you will need some way to track individual casualties (even at "battalion" level). If that seems too fiddly, you may be more interested in BKC.

The Battlegroup series are the best rules we played since beginning to play WW2. Easy to learn, but gives historical results. We love it.

I take the point about the intended scal of BKC.

I do find the Battlegroup Overlord rules for indirect artillery fire a bit involved, though I do like the suppressive fire option on direct fire and the use of drawn counters to check break point.

I also take the point about needing several books for Battlegroup ( I have the mini rule book and find it a strain on the aged eyes, btw)

I believe that BKC models the ebb & flow of combat quickly and reasonably realistically.

Thanks for the help so far. Still can't decide which to invest the time in.

For BKC 1/72nd is going to give you a very small game. We play it using 1/300th models again on a 6x4 table.

But there are better rules out there.

Parrskool,

You might want to check my photo tutorial on Artillery fire mechanics on The Guild forum.

We also have a large format rulebook out later this year which will also contain some lists for Normandy to get people started.

It plays a lot simpler than it sounds. :)

That said, Id have to agree with others… Battlegroup and BKC aim at different levels… and I have both. Used to play a lot of BKC in 6mm (and CWC and FWC).

To me they aim at different levels of force size… So buy both. ;)

To like playing BKC in the long term, you have to accept its abstraction of command and combat.

The rules are a direct descendant of GW's Warmaster, so the command system is of the type where you a) have to succeed at a roll to activate units, but b) can also try to activate units more than once. The rules include some features that nudge this in various directions (more flexible Germans, less flexible Russians), but you have to accept a certain level of randomness and possibly wide differences in "who gets to move what" every turn. A lot of people love this – I found that it wore out its welcome fairly quickly, especially with my son and his friends. This surprised me, to be honest, because it seemed so well thought out – but I discovered I really wanted to move more freely and model C&C and friction in other ways. That's a personal choice in gaming, not a judgement on the rules – but it's an important one.

The combat system gets a lot of gruff commentary, but its essentially modelling the suppression and "combat effectiveness" knockouts of abstractly sized formations. This can "look" a bit strange if you are using single models of vehicles to represent a platoon, since your visual brain wants there to be a more direct armor/penetration relationship. I found the system worked well if you kept that in mind, but it is something to consider. My son and his friends – just starting their first WWII collections – wanted something more "direct" if you will.

Battlegroup Overlord clicked with them for all the above reasons, and because the beautiful books gave them something to grab onto and try to model their collections after – much easier to visualize than the perhaps more efficient and comprehensive lists in BKC.

Cheers,

Christopher

Lots to think about here. Is one better for solo play than the other ? I quite like a bit of "Fog of War" to randomise things.

Battlegroup is the best game, ever. But you would find a crowded table if planning to play a company sized game in a 6x4 table with 20mm models. Remember BG is 1-1 scale.

For a typical 1 v 1 evening game, I think you'll struggle with a full company, let alone Coy +, using Battlegroup. I think their 'sweet spot' is around the the Pl +/Coy – size. So, as others have said, you are comparing apples to oranges. If you are really looking for Coy + sized actions, perhaps IABSM by TooFatLardies may be closer to what you're looking for? I noticed that's not one of the rulesets you've said you've tried.

Thanks.
Have tried both IABSM and CoC and I can't get on with them. It's probably my fault, but I find the system complicated … must be my reading of the rules as they seem very popular. I have had a look at Bolt Action, but find the lack of observation rules, amongst other things, a bit off putting. Maybe if I draft on some of my own ? I also had a look at FoW, and I believe that Rapidfire was conceived as a low level game initially.

"This surprised me, to be honest, because it seemed so well thought out – but I discovered I really wanted to move more freely and model C&C and friction in other ways. That's a personal choice in gaming, not a judgement on the rules – but it's an important one."

Absolutely. Never seen the validity of getting units to be able to do things just because they roll a certain number on a dice roll. BTW try Action All Fronts (free from the Yahoo group). No die rolls just to; move, shoot, spot or charge. But orders can be used to modify those actions. One figure equals one man and rules are designed for company level actions. For those that that want to big it up, I reckon battalion level is doable (but I will have to write rules for battalion support units!). Oh yes and you cannot shoot at anything until you have spotted it.

Panzer Grenadier Deluxe is a fine alternative and on a par with Battlegroup in terms of complexity and playability.
Found BKC ok along with IABSM but PG and BG better overall.
Can't really go wrong with either of these IMHO