"Former HMGS members - What will bring U back?" Topic

+1 for Drusilla1998 & Bowman.

For an out of state potential attendee, who attended every HMGS convention for a decade and my last Historicon in 2010, it would require a change of venue to a location within reasonable driving distance of a major city hub airport. This would allow more choice and lower fares. It would be nice if that included a site with good, non-chain, restaurants. It would be nice if the dealer's hall could be resuscitated. Doubly nice if the site broke up its playing area into smaller, more discrete, and quieter spaces, rather than just a big barn. It would be exceedingly nice if the location were in, or near, an interesting place.

Most of all it would be nice to return the premier U.S. historical gaming convention to historical gaming and to the US. ;-)

I've never had a problem with the volunteer staff but I've always gone as a simple attendee. Can't speak to the concerns of vendors or GMs.

And I don't always buy from Brigade but that would be a tragic loss in my view.

My biggest grumble as a Saturday-only attendee is everyone is out of much of the new stuff and everything else I need is also out of stock. Even with cash on hand I'm increasingly less tempted to spend it on anything that's left over.

Increasingly the Internet is making the cons (for my purposes) a waste of time and money. Paying an entry fee to find out there's no merchandise I want is insustainable.
Maybe there should be a cheaper or free dealer hall/Wally's pass only for those who don't game.

My biggest grumble as a Saturday-only attendee is everyone is out of much of the new stuff and everything else I need is also out of stock. Even with cash on hand I'm increasingly less tempted to spend it on anything that's left over.

Pre-ordering is your friend. It's what I do to get the figures I want.

Maybe there should be a cheaper or free dealer hall/Wally's pass only for those who don't game.

This comes up every so often. I'm afraid I'll disagree. There is a great cost to put on a convention. The "I don't want to game, I just want to shop" people never seem to realize that it costs money to get all the dealers in that one spot. If they have no interest in gaming then better they stay home and order on the internet, right?

Snurl , you can resent all you want -But the fact remains that in general the staff and volunteers are perceived as rude and arrogant . I am glad you have good friends on staff- nothing to do with the discussion, if anything people tend to be blind to the actions of those close to them .
Why yes -I do have examples;
Registration staff that are more interested in having long discussions with their friends about where they will be eating and when it is brought to their attention there are people to help " Can't you see we are talking" is the response .
When talking to the front desk a volunteer interrupting and saying " this is important I need a stapler "
add to that the general disdain when you ask them for directions . and the general attitude that most of them seem not to want to be there .
Explain to me why I need to cut you slack because you are a volunteer -if you can't do the job properly ,DON"T.
I have offered to volunteer and most of the time nobody every got back to me – and the 1 time they did the response was "no thanks we don't need any more "
So your response is we aren't as bad as you guys ?? and you wonder why people have that view of you .

I am a member, but a little historical information might be in order.

The then board made a conscious decision to inflate the membership rolls by offering membership at a low cost. They came up with a formula that made it worth a member's while to join if they attended all three cons. But when factoring in the costs of the past mailed newsletter, etc, the expenses of membership actually outweighed the fees collected.

Benefits of membership have come and gone over the years. The current benefits include sometimes a discount for attending the cons (but not always), access to the YM site (which replaced the old webpage), easier registration online prior to the con, free admission for those GMing, the right to purchase a flea market table in advance, and the right to vote. I think that's basically it as of now.

The primary purpose of the organization, according to the corporate documents, is to promote the study of military history through miniature wargaming. When the organization was founded, such gaming had been getting the short end of the stick at some of the larger national cons. In my opinion, HMGS has lost a lot of this focus over the years by sponsoring all kinds of non-historical games and figure painting competitions that have nothing to do with military historical gaming. For those of us who love history, that has been a bit of a discouraging development.

Friends who used to be members rarely attend the cons, so there is little reason to belong at that point. So to circle back to the question, I suspect many don't belong as they just don't attend anymore. It has long been a commonly held opinion that only about 300 of the membership really care, as reflected in the low vote to membership numbers and the decline in volunteers to work the cons.

Prefer everyone stick to the original premise of the OP.

Why did you end your membership?
What can be done (if anything) to bring you back?

TRU

But the fact remains that in general the staff and volunteers are perceived as rude and arrogant .

That's not a fact. It is your perception. My own perception is quite different. I have had rarely intermittent instances with what you have described. They are rare, and are certainly not a reflection of HMGS in general. Painting with too wide a brush here.

Explain to me why I need to cut you slack because you are a volunteer….

This explains a lot more about you than it does about the volunteer.

Prefer everyone stick to the original premise of the OP.

You know that's not how conversations work, especially on TMP.

Bowman (my very favorite Canadian) wrote -
"As I see it the complaint isn't that Historicon moved south. I don't think any one has an issue with Fredericksburg or Virginia specifically. The complaint is that the premier convention was moved away from the main population density that supported the conventions and the vendors in the first place. We now have a lower number of attendees, the loss of some important GMs (the Hawks, among others), the loss of vendors (OMM, among others) and the potential loss of some long time vendors (Brigade among others)."

….. +100. This is exactly one of the issues I pointed out two years ago, the last time (I've lost count) this topic was debated. Any plan to ruin a premier convention event would include many of the steps taken by the BOD in connection with HCon -

> Locate the venue beyond easy reach of the largest and densest concentration of potential attendees.

> Time the event in the middle of high summer when the heat and humidity of its sub-tropical locale will be most oppressive.

> Maintain a policy of consistent denial in the face of steadily declining attendance and vendor participation.

One simple (albeit partial) remedy might be to run Cold Wars or Fall-In @ Fredericksburg. At least the weather might be better and the summer tourist traffic avoided.

I don't actually know if I am a member at this moment; I often pay for the membership during convention registration. Why do I continue to renew? I'm not sure. Maybe it's just an old habit. It certainly is not a function of services rendered by HMGS to me as an individual that I perceive to be of any real value.

Re HMGS convention staff – Like any group, there will always be an occasional "bad apple" or someone having a "bad day". But, by and large, my experience with the volunteers has been a positive one, with several guys going above and beyond to help me out as a GM. The volunteers IMO are not the problem; it's inadequate organization and leadership.

B

My response was to your question – all my friends dropped their membership as they no longer attend HMGS cons on a regular basis. In other words, they don't feel the cons are worth their time to attend.

The leadership changes, so hard to fix that for any length of time.

If you move the other two cons to FCC then count me, and many others out. I don't care for the facility nor the drive (it is a mess year round for that 30 mile stretch). Then I will drop my membership completely.

"This explains a lot more about you than it does about the volunteer."
Absolutely it explains a lot about me – I expect certain levels of behavior and competence ,being a volunteer is not an excuse for not meeting standards. If you do not expect and demand this ,do not be surprised when the standards are not met .
Being a volunteer cannot be used in any way an excuse.
Please explain to me an example of "being cut slack" is in any way good for an organization.
And Yes -I do work with volunteers in a good number of organizations and they are held to standards . If they do not meet them they are replaced .

And also -it is a fact that they are perceived that way ,just look at the TMP posts . A personal perception would be if I had stated that all staffers were this way . perhaps the ones I ran into are a minority -BUT they are the ones that gave me that impression.

And just for clarity -if they accept recompense that has a monetary value (room ,etc.. ) they are not a volunteer.

I am a member. Back in the day, membership got you the right to vote for leadership and not a discount at the Cons. I liked that as you only had people invested in the group voting for the board. Then all you yahoos joined in and ruined it. . . I don't bother voting now as there are too many goofballs voting also. <A touch of truth and sarcasm in my comments>

Gee, these kind of threads make me want to join.

Oh, right, potential new members are not supposed to post per the OP.

Maybe you should worry about getting/keeping new members more than bringing back those who already have expressed strong negative emotional reactions to you by leaving.

Nice topic, TRU. Thanks for starting it.

Some interesting responses so far, to say the least.

I'm still a member, so I don't "count" toward the survey.

But +1 to the comments by those TMP voices of reason, Bowman and Blutarski. I'll add historygamer to the list.

Should be an interesting membership meeting at Historicon.

Hope to see you there.

I think I am still a member, by the way. But the only reason is that I did attend a convention last year.
There was a $10 USD difference between member and non member fees. It cost $10 USD to be a member. No difference really. On the off chance that I might go again I took the membership. I think I also needed to be a member to have a flea market table.
I spent an hour on line, and when I finally got to the table to pay my fees, the guy was in no hurry at all. Very friendly, in fact, wanting to chat about everything under the sun with a very long line behind me stretching out to the street. So, he was not mean or surly. Just totally oblivious.

I think the answer is simple. Make the conventions a must attend destination again. Certainly the facilities (physical plant and location) affect that.

I also like the comment about looking for new members instead of worrying about getting the old ones back.

But even with new attendees at the cons, what would make them want to join? If it is only for the discount, then you are devaluing membership and their membership (other than inflating the rolls) is relatively meaningless. What I think you want are members who are invested, volunteer their time, help out, etc.

Or, don't worry about membership at all, worry about attendance. But make sure what attendance you are after – just any old gamer, or those within a particular focus of the hobby? I'm not saying what that would be, but perhaps HMGS has some soul searching to do first.

Okay, first, I have not let my membership lapse, and I have gone to every Hcon in Va. That said, it really shouldn't be the mystery everyone seems to think it is why so many people are angry.

The debate over HMGS-E as a de facto national organization is foolish, as is the faux confusion when people act like they don't understand why people are upset.

Historicon was in one basic location for 25 years. A quarter of a century. It grew because the people who found that a good location supported it over a long period of time.

If someone said, "Hey, HMGS has sort of become the national organization…can they help support new (or existing) shows in my area," I'd be the first one to say that is a great idea. But that is NOT what happened. No one wanted to build up a show in another area…they wanted to take the existing one that was built up on 25 years of attendance and support and move it elsewhere. It is completely unreasonable to think people wouldn't get angry. Move the Rose Bowl to Buffalo and see how the folks in Pasadena feel about it.

Origins and Gencon are different. They have long been national shows, and they have served as such for decades. They moved around for a while and then found permanent homes, but they didn't grow for 25 years in one spot and then just up and leave.

If you want to get those members back (and it's probably far too litte and way too late now), the first step would be admitting the mistakes openly and clearly. And apologizing. And then, if the Host refurbishment looks like it's going in the right direction, move the convention back.

But that won't happen. People don't admit mistakes, no matter how obvious or disastrous they are. And they rarely make any effort to fix them. I know a lot of people who are still mad about what went down. Why shouldn't they be? What has ever been done to redress what happened…or even to acknowledge they had a reason to be upset.

You can walk all over people, act with arrogance and in an obnoxious manner…but you can't sit there wide-eyed and wonder why people are mad at you.

My sense is the people running HMGS are a cut above those who were there before (not a large hurdle to clear), but if they want to try to repair the damage, they're going to have to own what came before their tenure…and make some serious efforts to undo much of what was done.

I may not be reading this thread correctly but it seems to me that the consensus is that HMGS membership has little value to the average gamer.
Does Gencon require a membership to attend, or to receive a discount?
"Everybody" seems to realize that the mission statement on the non profit declaration, " to grow the historical miniatures hobby blah blah blah…" is just boilerplate.
The ONLY thing I require of HMGS is that it put on conventions I want to attend.
Maybe only a for profit organization can do that. Full time staff with no elections. Etc.
In the odd years that I am a member, I received ballots that are meaningless, since I don't know anyone on them and their platforms are equally meaningless.
It's irrelevant to me who runs conventions. I just want them and want them run well.

Also, one other note. Oh my God, get off this idiotic notion that gamemasters are getting away with something by getting free admission.

Hauling hundreds or thousands of dollars of figures, plus terrain, etc. in 90 degree heat, spending hours setting up, tearing down--not to mention the hours the game itself takes--is worth FAR more than admission. It's ridiculous, insulting, and obnoxious for people to constantly act like this is some kind of scam. You know what, next time bring a deck of cards and your grandmothers old set of Tiddly Winks, so you'll have something to play.

Volunteer to sit behind the desk and you not only get free admission, you get a hotel room and comped food. Haul half a ton of crap for a game and you get treated like crap for getting in free.

You want these conventions to be completely destroyed, keep at it with the BS. Because you'll get there

Hauling hundreds or thousands of dollars of figures, plus terrain, etc. in 90 degree heat, spending hours setting up, tearing down--not to mention the hours the game itself takes--is worth FAR more than admission. It's ridiculous, insulting, and obnoxious for people to constantly act like this is some kind of scam. You know what, next time bring a deck of cards and your grandmothers old set of Tiddly Winks, so you'll have something to play.
Thank You civildisobedience. I appreciate that!

I too started out at Penn Harris and enjoyed going, I have to agree with a lot that has been said about all the misuse of funds and the rising costs to get into the convention and for the dealers who pay high prices to get their goods in the door. The question that was asked is what would it take to bring you back and once again everyone wants to take shoots this is why HMGS may be doomed its people who would cut there nose off to spite there face. I for one would like to see HISTORICON saved. I mentioned once in TMP about having a professional organization who runs events put on the con this way no volunteers needed if you add up all the free hotel rooms that are given to volunteers, food and lost convention fees it would pay for the company. Before the few take this wrong it in no way has anything to do with volunteers I thank them for there support to HMGS. Gamemasters are critical for the con without them what do you have? Vouchers should be given to gamemasters just like GENCON that cover there entrance and other things like food, the more games you run the more vouchers it just makes sense. The newsletter is another big issue and should be brought back. With all the excess money in the bank there is no justification why you can't. Some of my two cents.

I am a member of HMGS. Have been since the early 90's.

I have supported HMGS cons since the first Fall In. I take ads in the program books to help the organization.

As I stated in an above post, my attendance as a Vendor is directly related to sales. Fredericksburg is more expensive than Lancaster ever was. The booth fees have not reversed to Lancaster prices or anywhere near it.

If the convention makes money, how about showing some love to the vendors?

If sales follow trend again this year well then I have to throw in the towel.

The BOD is always in a rough position. However, there was empirical evidence that being in Lancaster or even VF was positive. Most vendors were OK with that move and we saw some increase in attendance the second year in VF as gamers came back.

This hasn't been true at Fredericksburg. Sales were flat or declining since the beginning.

The solution is simple.
So if people want it to remain in the South, attend and spend some money.

What annoys me is that if this year is a bust, there is still one more year at Fredericksburg.

Some ideas I have written before -

Flea Market – Vendors always have an issue with the flea market. Easy – make it a bring and buy like the UK guys do and some of the bigger cons here do. The club makes 10% on each sale and con staff do the selling, not individuals. This is easier to regulate the guys slipping in not selling personal collections, but selling stock they bought for the show or vendor stock.

Registration – hire a registration management company. This is what they do and they can do it better than volunteer staff.

Vendor hall – let anyone get in free. Vendors don't care – we just want sales. How about a vendor hall only pass that is free or minimal cost?

Con staff – use con staff to be attendance security during open hours in gaming room entrances as opposed to the vendor hall. As it stands, anyone can get in and game. That should not be the case. And how about con staff eliminating people selling product from their gaming table? I know several that do it every con and it is never dealt with. If using con staff for security becomes and issue then use a management company for it.

Clinics – I think the painting and terrain clinics are stellar uses of staff. This is what the hobby is about. How about doing these in the center of the vendor hall???

Concessions. Any venue should be providing the club a cut of concessions. Every big fantasy convention does it. Why not HMGS? This can help cover other costs and reduce costs.

HMGS Membership – easy to solve. Make sure the value is there if someone attends 2 of 3 conventions. One thing is make sure you have to be a member to sell in the FM/B&B or be a GM.

GMs – do something to attract the goods ones with the stellar games. We should be able to have GMs with those big beautiful games they have in the UK or even that we have seen in the past in larger numbers. Why so few now? Spend money on getting them here and not on the ones who run games just for a few of their local club member buddies.

Just some ideas. I know people will hate me for some or all of them, but I am tired of the BS.

Give me and other vendors a reason to continue to come back.
Putting in hundreds of hours of effort and thousands in costs for little or no return is getting really old.

The "I don't want to game, I just want to shop" people never seem to realize that it costs money to get all the dealers in that one spot. If they have no interest in gaming then better they stay home and order on the internet, right?

I know you meant well, but about another 10% of attendee just said, "Doh!" and canceled their plans to go.

Those ALL sound like good suggestions Lon. I hope they listen to ya. Oh BTW, will you have any, or even one of the new NSAhut – Matabele/ Zulu Hut's with you @ H-con? If so, put one with the other (small, sorry) items you're bringing for me!
Thanks,
Peter

I love HMGS conventions and I think I get a great deal out of the organization.

Yes, there are always going to be issues--and mistakes made. At least we get to elect the leadership, and I've never had a problem getting a BOD member to listen to my opinions (whether those opinions are useful is another matter).

I think people on this forum do a service when they point out mistakes and problems--and they're even more useful when they offer reasoned solutions. I hope the BOD reads this thread.

But I must confess I don't understand how some of the complaints I hear could possibly be so awful as to keep someone from a convention.

I'm going to Historicon next week, and I'm going to have a great time. I appreciate everything that the volunteers with HMGS are trying to do … whether they get it perfect or not.

I think snurl proved several people's point with his comment. If an attendee at a con has been treated rudely by a staff member, whether you or someone else, they have a valid point. I have been treated rudely by staff members when all I did was ask a question. And the attitude you just displayed in your comment isn't helping bring me or anyone else back to HMGS or their sponsored cons.

AS A soon to be lapsed member . Civildisobedience and Brigadegames said it perfectly and I agree with all they wrote .
A few thoughts-
a) no matter how much sense it makes the BOD/con director will never go for any form of a management company or even paying for registration people . There are too many egos' and petty fiefdoms at stake for them to give up anything.

b) Flea market- I fully agree -get rid of the pseudo dealers .

Gencon: if you reach a certain # of number of gaming hours (generally around 80) you gat a free 4 day pass. there is no food voucher in place . There is a room reimbursement if each person in a 4 person room reaches 200 hours (gm'ing or volunteer)

Bowman, how much does HMGS pay dealers to attend cons? Oh, they don't? Then it doesn't cost HMGS a dime. They pass on the cost of the dealer hall to the dealers, those prices have risen dramatically over the past few years, and all the while attendance has declined because of the concerns people have raised here, thus reducing income for the vendors.

Disclaimer: I am a current member of HMGS, Inc. and live in south central PA. I state that because your request was for "former" members. As usual we blew that out of the water almost from the start. My response below is not meant to be malicious or an agitation so please don't read that into it.

Your question: "Former HMGS members – What will bring U back?"

Almost every single response is related to one or more of the conventions. We as an organization seem to be a one trick pony. Perhaps your intention is to actually find out "What MORE will bring U back?"

We, and I use that term loosely as I am just a regular member, as an organization put on a couple of conventions a year. There are a number of comments, complaints and compliments in the above posts. However, the main slant I take from all of the above posts is that "we" are an organization that does just one thing (conventions) and we seem to have an iffy impression of how "we" do that one thing.

Should "we" be looking at a different model for the organization itself? Should we be looking and doing more than just conventions? If we exist just to put on the cons, should we adjust/overhaul the model they are based on?

Attracting old members back & new members:

How about letting an individual who attracts an old member back or a new member, split the cost of one membership between them as a $$$ incentive?

If a club signs up an old member or a new one, they get a $$$ bounty or finder fee.

Allow a painter, publisher and/or manufacturer to collect a bounty or finder fee if they can do likewise.

It just occured to me that there are a number of useful posts here, but several are just pure irony – people whining about people whining. Ah, it's a beautiful thing!

Winston/OFM nailed it:

I may not be reading this thread correctly but it seems to me that the consensus is that HMGS membership has little value to the average gamer.
[…]
The ONLY thing I require of HMGS is that it put on conventions I want to attend.
[…]
In the odd years that I am a member, I received ballots that are meaningless, since I don't know anyone on them and their platforms are equally meaningless.
It's irrelevant to me who runs conventions. I just want them and want them run well.

I've been an HMGS East member 4-5 times, and only because it was basically free with the convention price. If it cost extra I wouldn't, because I live in California and derive no benefit from it.

- Ix

Del Stover, "I hope the BOD reads this thread"

They are, myself included. I have only been a Director for about a year, but have been attending conventions as a member since the Penn-Harris days. All seven Directors will be at Historicon. I will be very easy to find since I'll either be running some WWI games with my daughter in the gaming area, or in a corner of Hobby U painting figures. I would be happy to talk to anyone about their ideas, suggestions, thoughts, criticisms, and concerns. I'll also be at the membership meeting on Friday night giving the Treasurers report. I think this meeting will be extremely informative about what we have been doing, so I encourage all members to set aside a little time to attend. If individual scheduling makes it hard, like I said, I'll be easy to find all weekend long. Looking forward to next week.

Respectfully,
John Spiess
HMGS, Inc. Treasurer

John:

For those of us not attending Hcon this year, any chance of someone taking notes at the meeting to post on here afterwards?

My only suggestion – wasn't there some discussion wanting to attract more higher end games to Hcon? To my knowledge nothing came of that idea – at least in any numbers. There is a long list of PELA winners at recent cons but I don't think anyone contacted them to see what might entice some of them to attend. It might also be nice to feature more pictures of PELA winners on line and in the brochures, both to thank/entice the winners back and to show off some of the more visual games. A picture is worth a thousand words.

Glad the recent flyer finally had some photos in it.

John,

As I think I said in my post, you and the other current BOD members seem to be making more of an effort than several generations of your predecessors. Your willingness to come on these threads and participate puts you lightyears over the arrogant fools who preceded you.

None of you did this damage, but if there is a true desire to try to repair some of it, the items I listed have to be addressed. I've come to every convention since this all began, but I know many, many people who were extremely upset about the way things went down. They have not come to VA…and if they still feel that way so many years later, the status quo isn't going to change that.

It is extremely understandable that someone who came to a convention for many years, running games and helping it to grow, would feel betrayed by a move like this.

I don't envy the current BOD. A lot has been lost, and I'm not so sure it can be regained.

So I have two things to offer, even though I have never been a member (I live in Chicago).

I am a member of the Great Lakes chapter. They have a good newsletter they publish every 2 months. Nice web site. Several conventions and game days thoughout their domain. A nice club/group list and shop list. They are very active in supporting gaming events all over.

Second, I used to attend east coast cons as Scale Creep Miniatures. Now, I'm a retailer not a manufacturer. So my margins and interests are different. I lost money on every single east coast con I ever attended. And that's without being paid for my time. So I stopped coming. Gross sales dipped slightly, profits increased. I won;t be back.

Meanwhile here in Chicago the local HMGS chapter puts on Little Wars and, as far as I can tell, does nothing else. I pay my money to attend LW but otherwise what does "membership" even mean?

Lon,
The ideas you put forward are outstanding suggestions. This is the kind of out of the box thinking this organization should embrace.

Some other excellent ideas in this thread, but I wanted to underscore this post.

TRU

So how and why did HMGS East become HMGS? Did the other chapters vote them in. Didn't New England use to have its own Convention. A national convention might be some grand idea, but this isn't England where it 280 miles from London to Newcastle, the same distance from Fredricksburg to NYC. Maybe East ought to become East again so they can fit into a smaller venue. A lot has change since the original organization was formed. The Internet alone has completely changing buying habits for all retailers.

thomalley wrote – "So how and why did HMGS East become HMGS? Did the other chapters vote them in. Didn't New England use to have its own Convention."

….. This is all water long ago passed over the dam, under the bridge and well downstream by now, but HMGS as an organization was originally founded by a group of forward thinking <East Coast> war-gamers. The leading lights of the effort included individuals from Boston, NY, DC and NC (apologies if I left anyone out). The convention venues were thereafter located in eastern PA in order to be accessible from all these regions. I have been a more or less regular attendee since the 70s.

Re local conventions – I was an active New England war-gamer for forty years (just relocated to SC) and no one really saw a need to organize our own major convention; everyone in NE considered the HMGS events to be our events and attended without complaint for decades. Yes, there were a few local war-gaming events that came and went over the decades – Havoc, Tricon, Gathering of the Clans, Carnage – most of which were tiny/small affairs that carefully avoided the HMGS convention dates.

Unfortunately, it seems that certain BoD personalities lost sight of the organization's traditional geographical membership orientation and opted for what might be seen by some as a more self-interested attitude. All the Baltimore foolishness then erupted and threw things into complete disarray and discord. Here we are, years later, still trying to sort it out.

Strictly my opinion, of course.

B

Has HMGS ever conducted a survey of its members or convention attendees re: convention preferences ? The WBC board did this several years ago and it helped their board determine which things were most important to attendees as they approached the end of their ( final ) Lancaster Host contract. IIRC they got something like a 70% response rate, which is very good for a survey.

Reading this and other threads, its hard to say what things are real issues vs things brought up by a vocal minority.

Bowman and Drusilla 1998 are correct. Kudos to Ceterman and Civil Disobedience and BrigadeGames for speaking up

I am a life member. I became one the old fashioned way twenty years ago and bought it. I did not receive it as a piece of tawdry trash from a Bod attempting to reward it's cronies.

However each convention when I get my badge I still pay the full price as I believe I is a privilege to be part of such a society. For the same reason when I put on games at the convention and COULD get in for free, I still pay full price.

To those who want to know what you get for your money I will tell you it is simple. You get the ability to pay EVEN MORE MONEY in putting on games and such public entertainments for the general public of attendees, you get to see and be with hundreds of your fellow gamers and be in a commonality of interest where in your normal day to day life you may not have one single gaming buddy, you get to see and buy and browse, and live COMPLETELY for yourself, not for your kids, for your wife, for you job, your country, even for GOD. You get to live totally for yourself.

You get to show off your toys and your latest creations, see what others have made and done, and get inspired by, and you get to enjoy a care-free existence for a few days where everything is about YOU and what you like.

You get to WORK long hours prepping for games or organizing your buying lists, or reviewing your pile of lead to make sure you don't buy something twice (and even if you do so what-- you'll find a use for them). You get to feel the exhileration of accomplishment.

You get to participate and have fun, and meet new gamers and new people who have the same interests as you, and as for what "you get" what you DON'T get is that if you are in this hobby to save money you're in the wrong one. This hobby, compared to most others is already DIRT CHEAP, and continues to be so.

That the HMGS BOD is a completely corrupt, self-serving, self selecting, totally worthless organization of incompetents, of people who largely do not game and who are insufferably arrogant to the rest of the attendees to conventions, and has been since the original founders recoiled from it in disgust, is of no matter. It is largely irrelevant. What makes the hobby great is the attendees to the conventions who enjoy the hobby. The graft and the internecine quarrels of the bod give an example to the most casual and uninformed observer that if you WANT to get something for your money, then you should RUN for the BOD and become a member and then you will achieve your aim of getting far more back in graft than you contribute with your membership fees.

I doubt the BOD will ever read these comments. I say so because nothing has been said here that has not already been said on the BOD's own lists and communities YEARS AGO. They were ignored and eventually squelched.

If the BOD ever would WANT people to become interested again, it would be quite simple.

All you have to do is be nice to them.

That however is NOT why people get onto the BOD. Occasionally there is a new, eager and largely able face who wants to change things. It doesn't take long for the BOD to pound them into the same mold of corruption and go-along-get-along.

There are four vital components to the conventions.

The GAMES which provide the "sense of wonder" and "spirit of play" so essential to the hobby- the very soul- the very essence of the hobby.

The DEALERS who provide a marvelous experience no less important and wonderful than the games. Who bring us new wonderful things and who contribute sweat and money and effort.

The FLEA MARKET who like the former two, provide another experience, that of being able to hunt for things long gone, long vanished, or old and arcane, just as important as the dealers who bring things that are new and wonderful. Believe me, "hunting" the flea market is far more exciting than hunting deer ever was!

The GAMERS and the sociability and camaraderie they have and bring.

The BOD does NOTHING toward this and in fact only hurts and inhibits and hinders these things.

The Late Great Pat Condray said that HMGS was not an organization but a Society. He was absolutely correct, almost. The BOD is an ORGANIZATION, the four pillars of the hobby I enumerated above is the SOCIETY.

It's the organization that has to come back and join the society, and that society is learning to do quite will without them.

Ottoathome:

"That the HMGS BOD is a completely corrupt, self-serving, self selecting, totally worthless organization of incompetents, of people who largely do not game and who are insufferably arrogant to the rest of the attendees to conventions, and has been since the original founders recoiled from it in disgust, is of no matter. It is largely irrelevant. What makes the hobby great is the attendees to the conventions who enjoy the hobby. The graft and the internecine quarrels of the bod give an example to the most casual and uninformed observer that if you WANT to get something for your money, then you should RUN for the BOD and become a member and then you will achieve your aim of getting far more back in graft than you contribute with your membership fees.

I doubt the BOD will ever read these comments. I say so because nothing has been said here that has not already been said on the BOD's own lists and communities YEARS AGO. They were ignored and eventually squelched."

Thanks Otto. You made my day.
Respectfully,
John Spiess
HMGS Inc. Treasurer

Dear Al Swearingen

In I BELIEVE 1998 (though it might have been 97) the HMGS did exactly this. They gave everyone attending HMGS a survey asking exactly the questions you proposed. It was I believe two or three pages long and quite exhaustive.

Basically the Survey said by I believe an 80% margin, DO NOTHING! Leave everything as it is.

It was ignored. The results never published. I only know because I had sources at that time that released the results privately. The BOD at that time was under the delude4d fantasy that it could become another ORIGENS and wanted to move the convention elsewhere to accommodate the vast crowds that would flock to the new location under the "Take it to the next level." Idea.

By the way, I completely favor the "Move Cold Wars to Fredericksburg" along with Fall-In!.

Once an organization fastens on its own destruction you can do only one thing. You cannot reverse the rate of decay, you cannot stop it, you cannot even slow it down. All you can do is grease the kids to help it crash and burn and on the ruins build up a new replacement.

Well if the BOD has indeed changed in the last 19 years perhaps it might be worth doing another one. Otherwise how else can they quantify what the membership really wants other than the vocal minority who post here?

I just want to mention one last thing regarding vendors. Some of us do a good business outside of the conventions. Personally, I no longer need the conventions to sell my products. Most of us have primary jobs so why would we do this?

Because we love the hobby. We love to socialize and talk to friends and customers and many who are both. For us in manufacturing items we love to create and share what we make. So it is a society.

No rational business person would expend the effort and expense we do for the return we get. One really needs to love the hobby to do this stuff in an attempt to make money.

Dear John Spiess

I would have hoped that "what made your day" was the rest of my post about the Gamers, Games, Dealers and Fle-Marketeers where the only dynamic and forward looking part of the Society.

Please do not mis-understand. There is ONE and only ONE thing that the Bod can be charged with as an institution, not as a collection of individuals. Within individuals there are good and bad and by my theory of "Vamps, Tramps, and Mules," explained elsewhere, the efforts of the good almost always provide positive benefits to any organization that overcome at least three or four of the bad people.

The ONE and only ONE thing that the BOD as an organization can be charged with, is allowing the spirit of earnest and real excitement, of infatuation, of real spirit and enthusiasm to die. That spirit, enthusiasm, eagerness, and almost rhapsodic excitement was what sustained the society and brought it to be was what created HMGS and saw it through it's glory years. That excitement and eagerness was infused into it through the founders and which animated people. Making it hum-drum, as a succession of feuds between factions and personalities is what has brought it low.

If you want to bring back that excitement you can't do $5,000 USD cakes and pay a GM that you like $5,000 USD to put on an absolutely vast but inane game. You have to actually DO things people want, or would like to see.

For example

1. Does it not seem strange that in almost the whole existence of the HMGS there is not one event which showcases the skills of the painter and the modeler. I do not mean the painting university. I mean a general contest, a museum, a show and tell, as it were, of the artistic, compositional and modelling skills of its members. True you get a little of this in game, but precious little else. In fact, why is it NOT more like a show and tell where a model artist could stand for an hour or two and tell people who come up and ask about what and how he did it.

2. Why do you waste your money on a printed PEL!or Convention Booklet? It's worthless the moment its printed, and by the convention end, it's not even usefull to wrap fish. Why don't you make the convention book a simple stapled pile of events printed on the cheapest paper you can find, and spend your money on creating an After-Action report with articles, in-depth battle reports of games that were put on at the convention, including the ones you give your PELA awards to, and not just your friends, how about games that are large and visually expensive. Not just a few pictures, but a story with a detailed battle reports. Lard this up with other articles from your newsletter and produce it as a WELL EDITED (try using a spell check) and and colorful production which could be sold at the next convention for real money for people to remember it by. That would be of REAL VALUE and might be turned from an expense to a profit center.

3. You have two excellent and well loved editors to your newsletter. Why don't you do the hobby in America and start subsidizing an American War Game Magazine, the newsletter of the HMGS, and do the same. Subsidize it for a few years till it gets on its feet and like Historical Gamer, The Courier, and others, do REAL content on gaming. You have plenty of money. Doing it the E-route means only that no one will contribute to it and it won't be read.

4, If you want to do something "electronically" start an archive repository where the notes, battle reports, and writings of the people in the hobby can be collected and archived when they die and not be tossed into the dump. Lots of really great work is done each and every day by everyone in this hobby, and so much of it is lost. Some of it is pure dreck, but some of it are real gems. I don't mean your own records or minutes, or things like that, no one's interested in that dreck. But the ideas of gamers, their thoughts, even when fragmentary, can be gold.

Those are things that promote and create excitement and spirit. That is the only job the Bod has.

I don't really mind the corruption and graft, but the Bod ought to do something to earn it. Oh don't worry, you won't actually have to DO any work, just stay out of the way and support the hordes of people who will be willing to do it.

The Hobby of war games is chock full (except for most of the negative posters on TMP and Frothers) of dedicated obsessed people who will eagerly do it and devote their personal life, treasure, sweat, and time to it. These are people who put long hours into lovingly and imaginatively painting miniatures, creating terrain, back stories, and whole novels. They are what Dick Bryant used to call "In the Life" they are what Stuart Asquith called people in thrall to an obsession. People who eat, breathe, sleep, and enjoy games. Encourage them and they will run away with the projects and make it their own.

As I have said, it usually takes about four or five Vamps in a group to bring down one Mule. All you have to do is keep the Vamps away from the Mules and they will do it all on their own.

Want to help them? Simple-- encourage them-- be nice to them-- stop impeding them-- this goes for the Game masters, Dealers, Free-Marketers, Gamers in general and everyone else.

Dear Lon

Yes, thanks you. That is correct. I've known most of the dealers for years and they are all the same. They are in no sense ever going to attain the life style to which they might wish to become accustomed by the proceeds from their business in total let alone the amount they get from conventions. But they all know that so much of their business comes from the society and socialization they have from the gamers they know, of showing up, showing the flag, pressing the flesh. I know for my own part I always like to spend money at my friends places. I often feel guilty when I don't.

I buy stuff at the conventions, but always I simply place an order with the dealer and he can ship it to me later. That way I don't have to carry it home. So his being out of stock at a con is no matter to me.

Dealers are also the best references as to what is new, what is hot, what is not, and besides-- they're friends.

Thanks Otto. You have said it VERY well. Sir.
Peter
board2deathterrain.com

I have better things to do with my Friday mornings than post on TMP, but I can't let some of the recent comments go by without a reply. Usually, I just take a quick look in the morning, but save my comments for the weekend. This time I have to make an exception.

John Spiess is too nice a guy to tell you what he thinks of you, Otto. That's what he has me for.

Do you even know John? Have you ever sat down and talked with him? If you did, you would know that he shares many of the concerns that you do. One of the reasons he ran for the BOD was to correct the mistakes of the past and get HMGS to "reverse course" to bring the organization back to its former glory. He and I used to sit around and listen to Pat Condray tell stories about the "good old days" of HMGS. I miss those sessions.

Your bias against the HMGS BOD, past and present, has been evident to anyone who bothers to look at your (lengthy) posts on TMP for a long time. Yes, you are a lifetime member. But like many who were "present at the creation" of an organization, the institution often moves on from its founders. Some founders adapt; some drop out; some move on. Some post on TMP.

When Historicon moved from Lancaster, you went on to fill the gap with "The Weekend" which, by all accounts, has grown into a success. You are to be commended for that contribution to the hobby. But you couldn't leave it at that. You had to continue your public criticism of HMGS, especially the BOD, for what you consider to be past offenses, many of which fall under the category of not wanting to follow your advice. In the past two elections, I filled out a couple of ballots for the HMGS BOD. I didn't see your name on any of them.

You've accused the current HMGS BOD of graft and corruption on a public forum. Such statements are potentially actionable and defamatory. On my list of things to do at Historicon next week, when the new BOD meets, I'm seriously considering asking them to take up the issue.

Damn it…I agree with Otto…I hate agreeing with Otto.

Lon, You make some great points. There should be incentives.

And GM's should at least get something for hosting a game, if not a free admission, something. A token of appreciation…

Love the idea of an "After Action" report…full color, game spot lights maybe a few interviews of GM's, Vendors, gamers maybe a Beaver Hunt section…

Oh and BTW, I disagree with what a lot of Otto has said in the past. "The Weekend" being one. And his plain badmouthing of the BOD. And I'm sure I'll disagree with him in the future. And he with me. I have nothing but admiration for anyone who would step into the hellfire that is the BOD. I love this hobby & Historicon & want it to continue no matter where it is. But I think SOME of his suggestions ring very true. Not all, but some. So I have to say, sometimes we all CAN get along…