"Why is something crap? " Topic

I was watching Chronicles of Shanara, just the first two episodes. It isn't bad but next to Game of Thrones it isn't as good and I can't really nail down why. The special effects are good. The acting is not as subtle. The dialog isn't quite as good. But it shouldn't seem as much worse as it does.

Is the source material so much worse? What is it?

It is almost exactly the same difference between Daredevil and Green Arrow. I liked Green Arrow, it was a little soap opera-y but I could watch it. Until I watched Daredevil, then the lack of quality really showed.

Same with this. I think if I watched this first I'd have really enjoyed it but after watching GoT it just doesn't match up.

I'll probably keep watching it, like I said it isn't bad. It is odd that you can just tell that it isn't as high quality.

Same with the Last Kingdom and Vikings.

There are things that come around once every 10 years, or even once in a generation. They are a HUGE success.
So, the big shots sit up and say "Hmmmm. This fantasy crap seems to be making a lot of money. Do we have rights to any fantasy crap properties?"
Well, it seems they do.
So, just like Shanaara was a derivative copy of LOTR in print, it's that fantasy crap that will make some money for us. Just don't try to go first rate. The viewers couldn't care less. It's fantasy crap.

So, it does 60% of the take of GoT. Hey, that's great! But not a classic, because everybody involved decided they didn't really have to try all that hard. It's a job.

Depends on the themes explored, the complexity of the plot and the characters, the layers so to speak.

If anyone could put the difference between good and perfection into a repeatable formula they would be the first to do so.

It always comes down to character development.

The setting doesn't matter – Middle Earth, 1950's Chicago, Delhi in 2010. If the viewer cares about the characters, it won't be crap.

I read The Sword of Shannara back in the 70's. I desperately wanted to like it, because there just were not that many fantasy epics out there. The characters were just not interesting – it was so forgettable, I can't even remember if I finished it.

I'm a writer, so I'm inclined to look at the quality of the writing, from characterisation and plot to dialogue That doesn't mean nothing else matters, of course, but good acting on handsome sets with excellent costuming / special effects/ fine cinematography can't cover poor writing.

That's true in everything from TV sitcoms to Hollywood epics. I saw the two lead actresses from the abysmal 'Two Broke Girls' interviewed on Conan O'Brien. They were hilarious. On the show they just deliver embarrassingly crude banalities. The scriptwriters are useless.

Weirdly, writing is one of the cheapest elements of any production. Good writers cost no more than bad ones.

I think its effort, GoT is quality, bloody and fascinating. The Walking Dead is good and realistic, right we as viewers can tear it apart, but how would we react? Fear the the walking dead didn`t watch told it was crap, seen a few episodes I LIKE it. Its not as good but different, you can see the storyline follow The Walking dead.

It depends if you can think for yourself or just go along so to speak

I think you can tell when those involved are just putting in the time and when they care. That's the main difference.

I think the reason Shanara doesn't seem as good is because it isn't as good in pretty much every department. The budget is a fraction of GoT I would imagine and it shows.
The acting by many of the leads isn't as good. The scripts aren't as tight with too many modern phrasings.
Now it's quite a while since I read Elfstones (which the series looks to be based more on) but I don't recall the setting being like the tv series and it had a far more epic feel.
The costumes really aren't that bad but are perhaps like top end high street Vs proper designer.
Effects again aren't bad but look like too much CGI compared to physical effects/sets.
I think GoT always has more of the feel of a movie and Shanara a tv series – if that makes sense.

That said I did enjoy Shanara as well, perhaps more a guilty pleasure, even though I did want to slap a couple of the leads.

Lucis wrote:

I read The Sword of Shannara back in the 70's… it was so forgettable, I can't even remember if I finished it.

I can. Didn't finish

I haven't watched a sitcom in years. To amplify on what Senor Squint said, it seems that most tv comedy writers for sitcoms are unfamiliar with what they are writing about, or don't care.
Potty mouthed kids would have been smacked in the mouth for what writers have them day.
They have contempt for their subject, much as ad agency writers have contempt for what they are selling.
And there are a limited number of writers you can used, in a protected union.

When is the last time you actually laughed at a sitcom?

I'm not sure if it counts as a sit com but I laughed my ass off at Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt. 30 Rock was very good too, as was Don't Trust the B in Apt. 23.

I haven't watched many others.

It does seem like it is the writing. I'm watching the third episode right now and the dialog is much worse than in Game of Thrones. Also the male half elf is a terrible actor and the female elf lead is equally bad. The druid is Deathstroke from Green Arrow and he is just about playing Deathstroke from Green Arrow.

It seems like a lot of them are stereotypes rather than actual characters.

Maybe that is the problem. The special effects are pretty decent. I don't mind CGI at all if it is done well and it is.

Oh, there are some good sitcoms, and some bad ones. The difference between them is much more often in the quality of the writing than any other element. Basic stuff like, "Don't 'telegraph' the punch line so we all see it coming," and "Just because we've all seen that a hundred times doesn't make it some sort of classic."

The very best popular comedy – indeed the best of any popular art form – combines high and low elements (the bon mot and the banana skin) to entertain a wide audience. That applies to fantasy epics as well, except for the banana skins.

When is the last time you actually laughed at a sitcom?

There have been a few in recent years that, IMO, were funny & well-written. The quantum leap in sitcoms (and dramas, though there it was less an issue) has been the abandonment of the Reset Button. Things happen, characters change and grow a little. In the old days, that only happened when kids visibly aged, an actor left or died, or when a Cousin Oliver was brought in. But again that's tied to kiddie's dimples turning to pimples.

I have watched the equivalent of a couple of episodes of Two Broke Girls. It's so hackneyed it's almost mesmerizing (or maybe that's the brunette). Anyone notice they use the same kitschy rock number at every scene change?

It's sure to join "Welcome Back, Kotter" in the annals of bewilderingly dim & popular TV.

Sorry, rant over.

Last time laughed at a Sitcom?The first 8 (Sheen) series of Two and a half men was hilarious, IMHO.

So was Man Down.

John T

I saw the first episode of Shannara only; pretty bad. I get bored with all the cliches in bad fantasy writing. Compare to Tolkien who really knew how to write. He used common fantasy themes but made them original. His story had so much depth (with incredible detail in its depth) that the reader is drawn into the fiction as if the story could be true; part of some forgotten time before recorded history.

Basically you have to have really good writing. And if the book is going to be made into a movie, than a really good screen play. That was the main problem with the LOTR movies; poorly written screen play.

You really chose to call out TLotR over The Hobbit???

Difficult to say. Many things should be consigned to the dustbin, but despite their limitations they have charm.

Legends of the Seeker spring to mind, it almost winks at you in that "I know i'm a bit naff" kind of way.

Death Valley also worked and worked well, sort of found its feet on the 4th, episode but did not get picked up for a 2nd season.
link

Yet the BBCs Musketeers, despite a strong start, quickly lost its way.

Even when most things have been got right. something can be less than the sum of its parts.

I laugh at nearly every episode of Big Bang Theory, but then the show is aimed right at me.

I don't laugh at any others – hard to laugh at something I never see.

Everyone tells me I should like Big Bang Theory. It should be aimed at me too. I have a couple of science degrees and collected comic books for years.

I find the humour boring and the characters the typical stereotypes that you find to be the sole vehicle of humour in most sit coms. The one thing that really kills it is the laugh track.

That was the brilliant thing about Arrested Development, no laugh track.

With a laugh track you basically have this artificial situation:

Character A: makes pithy comment

Character B: makes witty retort

visible pause while laughter rolls

Character A: makes similar witty comment

Cue laughter.

With Arrested Development that didn't happen, they just kept rolling, it seemed so much more real and more funny.

My parents watched (and somehow loved) Everyone Loves Raymond. There was one scene I saw where the grandmother or mom or whoever she was says something and is literally standing there waiting while the laugh track goes and then continues. It looked so horrible.

I'd say it's crap when they take the easy route to please the lower common denominator. Be it Shanara's lazy cash grab featuring a bunch of beautiful teens in a bowdlerized stock fantasy world or sit coms where writing has become overly codified so that anyone can instantly laugh at the jokes, even if they have never seen the series before.

I can't bear sit coms any more. Kids are wisecracking adult midgets, dad is a blue-collar dumber-than-a-sack-of-doorknobs man-child who is only interested in 70's muscle cars and sports. The wife is the hard-suffering, inhumanly perfect, perpetually right about everything.

And every scenario is a variation of Fred and Barney trying to sneak out to the bowling alley with Wilma and Betty finding out and giving them some payback.

The worst sitcome I ever saw was a domestic series about a dumb, mean, unsympathetic crooked car mechanic, his dumb, mean, unsympathetic lothario-in-his-own-mind loser son, his dumb, mean, unsympathetic arrogant cheap thrash high-society-in-her-own-mind wife, their dumb, mean, unsympathetic, promiscuous, sexy-in-her-own-mind office assistant, the dumb, unsympathetic, ugly and really dumb, abused cleaning lady followed by an assorted cast of schmucks who either were the victim or the abuser of aforementioned little gang of supposedly endearing thugs. Every joke was either about being extremely mean to someone or about being on the receiving end.

Aside from the title mechanic every character in the series was replaced at some point by a perfect duplicate and every episode was either the mechanic trying to take advantage of some poor soul or someone trying to take advantage of him.

Character development. The first season of Rome is a good example.

I think that often it's the little things. Look at this year's GoT 9th episode, the scene where Sansa visits Ramsay for the last time. Sophie Turner, the actress playing Sansa, doesn't blink, the whole time she's talking with Ramsay. He does, she doesn't. It's a little directorial trick and one that you may not notice but it's there and your brain picks up on the intensity. It's really acting. In the movie "Goodfellas" there's a scene with Robert DeNiro at the bar, he's drinking and smoking and deciding to kill everyone. It's terrifying, he doesn't say a word, but you can see on his face what a monster he truly is. Again in GoT the slight smile as Sansa walks away from a dead Ramsay, the look on Arya's face as Walder Frey dies, they're very small moments but as the saying goes "the Devil is in the details". And it's true in comedy as well, watch Jack Benny or Bob Hope sometimes, they were masters of timing, they never telegraph a line. It still happens today though, watch "It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia", while over the top the timing is there, the same is true of "Silicon Valley".

"When is the last time you actually laughed at a sitcom?"

Every single week when I watch Modern Family, Big Bang Theory, Mike and Molly, Archer, The Goldbergs, and The Middle. Plus whenever I see shows like Don't Trust the Bitch in Apt. 23, The Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt, Raising Hope, Community, Bob's Burgers, and Parks and Rec on Netflix. There are loads of really good sitcoms out there for those willing to actually watch instead of sitting around and bemoaning a lack of things that already exist. 8)=

You really chose to call out TLotR over The Hobbit???

You're right. The Hobbit movies are much worse. I think most everyone is saying the same thing here that there is a lot of crap out there and it is mostly caused by bad writing. Chronicles of Shanara has bad writing, both the book and movie; therefore crap. Game of Thrones has good writing, both the book and tv show; therefore not crap. LOTR has good writing in the book, but bad writing in the movie. Despite great visual effects, great music, big budget, good actors, great source material (the books), beautiful locations, and great everything else etc etc, but the screen play stinks, then the movie suffers. It all comes down to the writing.

In the case of Shannara and Song Of Ice and Fire the source material can hardly be compared and hence the outcome.

Execution does matter though. The SciFi channel and an amazing ability to take good stuff (Earth Sea) and turn it into drek and take bad stuff (Battle Star Galatia) and make it good.

Shannara's decision to emphasize post apoc and young adult hottes made sense to market execs but also insured the production would not rise above the source material. (The wizard was also Spartucus).

Settings like Westeros and Middle Earth just don't come along that often (World of Warcraft anyone…)

Good writing like good game design is greatly undervalued. Marketing and gloss is often substitued for talent in both gaming and entertainment.

TomT

Well I find that most sitcom's these days are nothing more than Hollywood trying to push Social Justice down our throats.

So I do not watch any of them.

The same goes for most of the drama's as well.

Hear, hear!