"Lesser known defeats by "natives." " Topic

I was noting the anniversary of the U.S. defeat at the Battle of the Little Bighorn, started thinking that the British have the Battle of Isandlwana, and the Romans have the Battle of the Teutoburg Forest. Do other nations have similar battles where their "modern" armies were defeated by "natives?" Or more generally, does hubris extend across cultures?

Hubris extends across mankind. But if we're confining ourselves to armies which underestimated the locals, toss in Adowa (Italy) and the Noche Triste (Spain) and add Harmar, St Clair and Fetterman to the US total. The Germans had some bad days in Southwest Africa, too, and Spain and France both had some experiences in the Rif Wars they don't want to talk about.
Hmmm. Do Route Colonial 4 and Dien Bien Phu count as defeats by natives?

Exactly why I'd asked, I had not heard of any of those except French Indochina.
Thanks.

While there were also some French involved the vast majority of the combatants at the Battle of the Monongahela were natives.

Also during Pontiac's War the natives swept over Michigan, Ohio, NE Indiana and much of Western Pa destroying a total of 8 forts. They also defeated British forces in a number of ambushes at Point Pelee and a battle/ambush at Bloody Run.

The worst of the defeats for the British was the Battle of Devil's Hole but the whole war was pretty bad for the British.

Still the greatest victory by the Natives was not in Pontiac's War but against General St. Clair at the Battle of the Wabash where St. Clair lost something like 98% of his men.

There's Gumburu, during the British Somaliland campaigns against the 'Mad' Mullah.

The Boudicca revolt was pretty nasty for the Romans.

Mohacs, of course, though when both sides are at similar levels of technology and sociology, it's a little harder to decide who are the "natives".

Let's don't forget Maiwand and Gandamack.

The Italians at Adowa?

Khartoum!

Italians also had a noteworthy defeat from Ethiopians in 1935 at Dembeguina Pass. link

In November, 1914, over 600 French troops were wiped out while returning to base after an attack on the village of El Herri in Morocco. The lieutenant colonel commanding was among the slain. One infantry company, with the wounded had been sent on ahead, and barely made it back to safety.

Grelber

There is also the destruction of Elphinstone's army during the retreat from Kabul in the First Anglo-Afghan War in 1842 link

Edit: Just noticed rmaker beat me to it on that one.

Not as much because of hubris as because incompetence of his generals, Spain suffered her fair share of disasters against the Riffians. On July 27th 1909 Spanish troops were ambushed in el Barranco del Lobo (near Melilla), losing 153 dead (the commanding General one of them) and 599 wounded.

The Disaster of Annual was even worst. Between July 22-August 9th, 1921, the whole invasion force that was trying to reach Alhucemas Bay and several garrisons located in the territory of the Beni Urriagel (a Riffian tribe) were annihilated by the Riffians. Losses were in the range 8,000 to 10,000 dead (the discrepancy is because many corpses were never recovered, and were officially listed as missing in action). The main column suffered a panic and most of the soldiers run away, being killed by the locals during the retreat. The garrisons resisted as much as they could, but they were finally overwhelmed one by one. Only the cavalry regiment Cazadores de Alcántara showed real bravery, charging repeatedly against the pursuing Riffians to try to save as many infantry fugitives as they could, and losing in the process 80% of its troopers killed (471 killed of 691 soldiers).

What it is more disgusting of the Disaster (with capital D) is that the Riffians were usually better armed than the Spanish infantrymen, thanks to the penny-pinching of a corrupt military administration and an overbloated officer corps that consumed most of the defense budget of the Spanish army. Some soldiers in Africa were forced to sell their ammunition for their Mausers to the Riffians because otherwise they would have been unable to feed themselves, as corrupt administrators had deviated the funds for feeding the soldiers to line their own pockets.

There are plenty of examples in the ancient period; such as Adrianople – perhaps Rome's worst defeat against "barbarians"(vs. Goths) – and Rome's early battles against the Cisalpine Cauls and similar (e.g. Brennus sacked Rome in 387BC).

I'm not happy to count the defeats of Rome along with later colonial defeats. The asymmetry between forces in the ancient period was far less pronounced than later on.

I'd say the whole Maximilian adventure.

Let's not bicker about who killed who.

Defeat of Napoleon's army by the Haitians in 1803.

Iceland beating England at the European Football Championships in 2016.

There were a large number defeats of U.S. or pre-U.S. colonials, including several in the Seminole Wars and the Apache Wars. Confederates were beaten by the Comanche in Texas.

"The asymmetry between forces in the ancient period was far less pronounced than later on."

The technology differences between natives and colonials wasn't always that great, even into the 19th century. Natives at Little Bighorn had a number of modern weapons, including Henry repeaters.

"Iceland beating England at the European Football Championships in 2016."

The Icelandic force was highly trained, skillfully led, well coordinated, and highly motivated -- at least compared to their opposition.

Reading about the Rif War is interesting. It was completely off my radar.

How are you defining defeat?

I know defeat when I see it. I've seen it a lot. Also, generally, if no one comes back from one side, that counts.

Thinking of which. No one--including me--mentioned Billy Hicks from the Mahdist Wars. Surely at least an honorable mention?

I bet we're only scratching the surface. No one's mentioned any Belgian or Portuguese disasters yet, for instance. That's almost surely lack of material in English rather than lack of events.

Taking the question of defining defeat seriously. Obviously if one side is virtually annihilated. I'd say in colonial warfare if you lose your camp or your trains, your camp followers are massacred and have been driven from the field, that more than qualifies. When you get into Kipling's "Arithmetic of the Frontier" {"The captives of our bow and spear are cheap, alas! and we are dear.") you're probably still losing strategically, but that's different.

War of Canudos – four progressively larger disasters for the Brazilian government before they finally wiped out the settlement.

Falkirk and Pretonpans come to mind!

"In November, 1914, over 600 French troops were wiped out while returning to base after an attack on the village of El Herri in Morocco. The lieutenant colonel commanding was among the slain. One infantry company, with the wounded had been sent on ahead, and barely made it back to safety.

Grelber"

This was actually at a place called Khenifra, I wrote an article on it several yrs back.

Spain and France`s defeats at the hands of Abd el-Krim and his rebellion have been well covered here (by me and others). I have an article on the Alcantera being finished on this PC as I type this :)

Maori Wars, and the Gurkha Campaign (before they signed their long term contract with Her Majesty).

B

Pembe, Southern Angola 25 September 1904

The Portuguese forded the Cunene river at Pembe on September 19th. The Kwamatos were waiting. From the 20th to the 24th there were some minor firefights. Then the Kwamatos tried to paralyse the column, that was still on the Cunene riverbank, by killing the ox and horses. To free the stranded square, governor Aguiar sent captain Pinto de Almeida, on the 25th of September, with a strong detachment of troops who's numbers were enough to conquer the Ovambo kingdoms: Two artillery pieces (old mountain-guns), two dragoon platoons and six infantry platoons, totalling 255 Europeans and 244 African soldiers, aided by many armed auxiliaries. A guide led the troops to a clearing were the Kwanyama hidden among the trees started to fire at the officers and then closed in. The cavalry charged, but the terrain was ill suited for them and many mounts were thus lost. Then the artillery stopped firing. At Umpungo the Portuguese had fallen into the favourite Kwanyama trap, who fired devastating volleys from their modern rifles – bought from the white hunters and traders – at a distance of 100 meters. Against such a concentration of firepower, unusual in the dark continent and specially in Angola, the Portuguese discipline crumbled as ammunition ran low. The bugle sounded the retreat but, it was too late. The auxiliaries had routed before the Kwamatos charged for hand-to-hand combat, brandishing their maces and assegai. Aguiar who stayed in camp 2 miles behind did not move in support of the surrounded square. His ineptitude was such that, when he finally decided to send infantry with ammunition, the supporting artillery fired upon the retreating survivors that emerged out of the bush. Killing three officers and 22 soldiers. In the clearing, the remaining soldiers were all slaughtered.

The casualties list is staggering. In less than two hours, the Portuguese had lost 250 dead and missing. Aguiar decided to ford the Cunene that same day, leaving behind the unburied bodies, two guns, two ammunition wagons and hundreds of rifles. It was a sad affair. Blamed for the disaster, governor Aguiar was dismissed. The military garrisons on the plateau were reinforced fearing an Ovambo offensive. Nothing happened. Luckily, the Kwamatos were unable to establish an Ovambo coalition, losing a superb opportunity to exploit their victory.

have an article on the Alcantera being finished on this PC

Where will you publish it, Richard? I would be interested in reading it.

We still need Belgium and the Netherlands to have at least one defeat for each modern colonial power.

I was about to write that a Russian defeat at the hands of locals in the Caucasus would fit in well. Silly me.

Yes, there are lots of examples of overconfident or incompetent "modern" armies badly losing individual battles or campaigns to native warriors. However, I can only think of three cases where the natives clearly won the war. The Afghans crushed the British invasion in the First Afghan War, and Britain never did conquer Afghanistan. The Ashantis definitely beat the British in the First Ashanti War (early 19th century). And after Adowa the Italians left Ethiopia alone for more than 30 years. I would not count the Haitians as really defeating the French; that had more to do with yellow fever and terrain, than battlefield prowess.

During the Herero War in German South-West Africa, at Owikokorero on March 13, 1904, concealed Herero riflemen firing from the bush inflicted a serious defeat on the Germans.

The Battle of Owikokorero was a disaster for the Germans. Of the 11 officers and 36 men of the Erkundungsabteilung (Reconnaissance Detachment), 7 officers and 21 men were killed. Another 3 officers and 2 men were wounded; thus, only 1 out of 11 officers escaped from Owikokorero unscathed.

Here are the results expressed as German fatality rates and total casualty rates (killed or wounded): 64% of the officers and 58% of the men were killed, 91% of the officers and 64% of the men were killed or wounded. This translates into 70% of the total force (officers and men) being killed or wounded.

These casualties were inflicted by intense Herero gunfire delivered at the closest of ranges:

"Therefore it was ordered to break off from the combat on the left flank and retreat. Only a few of the men of the left flank were in a position to follow the order, [since] the majority were killed by the murderous fire delivered at the closest ranges (70 m or less). Nearly all the horses were killed or severely wounded by the flanking fire. While the few surviving men retreated from the left flank under the cover provided by the yet-still-firing right flank, the struggle raged further onwards into the middle of the firing line. Here, where the machine gun was located, the casualties piled up." (Translation by Roy Jones)

"Deswegen wurde auf Befehl das Gefecht vom linken Flügel abgebrochen und zurückgegangen. Nur einige Leute des linken Flügels vermochten dem Befehl zu folgen, die Mehrzahl war dem aus nächster Entfernung (70 m und weniger) abgegebenen, mörderischen Feuer erlegen. Fast alle Pferde waren durch Feuer von der Flanke her getötet oder schwer verwundet. Während vom linken Flügel die wenigen Überlebenden unter dem Schutz des noch feuernden rechten Flügels züruckgingen, tobte in der Mitte der Feuerlinie der Kampf weiter. Hier, wo das Maschinengewehr stand, häuften sich die Verluste." (Marine-Expeditionskorps, pg. 32)

As the bodies piled up, the gun crew and ox-team of the machine gun were shot down, and the gun immobilized:

"…but the Hereros, encouraged by the retreat of the Germans, now pressed them closely and energetically, especially against both flanks. Their fire became continuously more intense, the [German] losses mounted, and the machine gun was forced to a standstill after its gun crew had fallen and its ox-team had been shot down. The [gun team] leader, First Lieutenant z. S. Hermann – himself severely wounded by two gunshots and combat ineffective – summoned a trooper to bring back the gun, but as he neared it the trooper himself fell. Seaman 1st Class Ehlers had made [the gun] unusable, before he himself had met with death and the gun fell into enemy hands." (Translation by Roy Jones)

"…aber die Hereros, durch den Rückzug der Deutschen ermutigt, drängten jetzt lebhaft, besonders gegen beide Flanken nach. Ihr Feuer wurde immer heftiger, die Verluste mehrten sich, das Maschinengewehr mußte stehenbleiben, nachdem seine Bedienungsmannschaft gefallen und seine Bespannung abgeschossen war. Der Führer, Oberleutnant z. S. Hermann, selbst durch zwei Schüsse schwer verwundet und kampfunfähig, rief einige Reiter herbei, um das Gewehr zurückzubringen, aber wer sich ihm näherte, fiel. Der Obermatrose Ehlers hatte es unbrauchbar gemacht, ehe er selbst zu Tode, getroffen wurde und das Gewehr in Feindes Hand fiel." (Generalstab, pg. 67)

Owikokorero was by far the worst battle for the Germans in terms of casualty rates. However, it was not the only Herero War battle in which the Germans suffered significant casualties. In fact, German casualty rates were well above 10% in several other battles (e.g., 47% at Okaharui and 19% at Hamakari). Thus nearly 1 in 2 Germans were killed or wounded in the fiercest fighting at Okaharui, while nearly 1 in 5 Germans fell at Hamakari. Even at Omaruru, where the Hereros were caught slightly off-balance, the German casualty rate was 1 in 8 (i.e., 13%) – with 3 out of 4 of the platoon commanders wounded, two of them mortally.

As the Omaruru example shows, officer casualty rates were often especially high during Herero War battles: 25% officer casualties at Hamakari, 33% officer casualties at Otjihinamaparero, 75% officer casualties at Okaharui, and as previously mentioned 91% officer casualties at Owikokorero.

For more details, go to: link

Lluis

That would depend on the magazine editors, they don`t seem interested in this stuff – not commercial rules by favoured authors, etc. ;(

I usually sent it to Miniature Wargames, but in recent years they don`t seem to want to publish "odd" stuff :(

Strategically, Red Cloud is widely considered to have won his war against the USA, which included the total tactical victory known as the Fetterman Massacre.

Take a look at the British in southern Africa in the 1840s-1850s:
link
The British suffered some significant and embarrassing defeats. I just read about them recently in Joseph Lehmann's biography of Sir Harry Smith, "Remember you are an Englishman".
link

Chris

Bloody Big BATTLES!
link
bloodybigbattles.blogspot.co.uk

To Henry Martini,

Yes, you are right about Red Cloud; I forgot that one. I'm afraid his victory did not have much of a shelf life, however.

The Areo-Terran war of 1898, whence the Martian Invasion force was defeated on the verge of victory by a biological warfare weapon released by the natives.

That was the first campaign history I ever read, back when I was in primary school. The teacher's assistant lent it to me.

How can hubris NOT exist across cultures?! Although if you are solely wanting defeats based on that vice, a number of those above do not quite count. Being massively outnumbered, starving or dying of thirst, etc can apply to anybody who is unlucky, has a bad general or an idiot government.

Some interesting factors already displayed here: The preponderance of Anglo examples partly reflects this English-language site, but also a greater willingness by Anglo cultures to 'fess up to/learn from such disasters. Most were being dissected in the Press within a few days.

Finally, I would regard a crushing defeat against those of equal technology – when you have equal or larger sized forces – as a lot more to be embarrassed about. Hubris can flourish anywhere!

The Chickasaw defeated a French attack force at Ackia in the 1730s.
Though reported as victories, the Muskogee Creeks defeated several American forces in 1813/14. The Force from Georgia lost two battles and had to return back to base both times. Also Jackson lost two battles before winning at Horseshoe Bend.

In Colonial actions, the Russians had several defeats in their drive east in their manifest destiny. The central Asians defeated several forces between 1870 ans 1890.

The boxer Rebellion had the Allies stopped several times.

The Pueblo Revolt against the Spanish in 1680. The Spanish were driven out of what is now present day New Mexico for 12 years.

link

Iceland beating England at the European Football Championships in 2016.

So, that's the Icelanders as the "Natives" then?

From the sounds of the game, the Brits had Elphinstone (or at least his ghost) coaching…

And another 11 playing.