"Ukraine disputed region" Topic

Following Britton Publishings release of Stealth Invasion:

TMP link

…a little reminder of just how small the disputed area of Ukraine actually is…

A completely misleading title for the book, but the scenarios could be interesting. With the availability of possible figures, I think 28mm might be about it.

Is "disputed" a PC term for aggression and forceful annexation?

Not really disputed as Russia invaded and annexed the territory in breach of the Budapest agreement. Also not disputed as Russia signed three treaties with Ukraine and recognised Crimea was part of Ukraine in those treaties. Opportunistic invasion when Russia thought it would lose Sevastapol as a base.

A quick google of countries that recognise Crimea as part of Russia are 6 Russian allies and Afghanistan. A total of 7 other governments when the rest of the world do not recognise it.

Good point by Geoff as to hear some of you'd think the whole of the East was in rebellion – if you draw a vertical line through Kyiv one realizes what a small part it is and even if you divided Ukraine into thirds it will still not be that big a chunk of the eastern third. But oh of course ! That the pro-Maidan Ukrainian nationalists I met were first language Russian speakers from Kharkiv etc is nothing to do with anything

Granted, a small area, but a major issue if you happen to live and/or work within the combat zone.

The territory shown in bright orange (irony?) is the land controlled by the Russian-backed insurgency. The 'disputed' territory is much larger but not in the hands of the insurgents. The map link below shows the larger scale of the dispute and I will leave others to decide for themselves to what level each additional area is disputed.

link

Cheers.
Rod Robertson.

That's pretty out of date Rod. Kharkiv, Odessa and Zaparozhia are back to normal, bar the very occasional march. The whole of Donetsk and Lughansk is what the DPR et al claims as their territory, but they occupy less than a third of it in any real sense, and the conflict zone is really restricted to within 50-80km of the border that Russia refuses to seal.

The map I posted shows basically this region:

In other words the conflict zone. They may claim they should have the rest, but that's like saying they also have New York.

Opportunistic invasion when Russia thought it would lose Sevastapol as a base.

And conveniently effectively neutralise most of the Ukrainian navy at the same time, although I do still think their economists must be tearing their hair out over how to afford the acquisition.

Geoff:
The scenario package and presumably the map too deal with 11 scenarios in 2014 according to the book's description. That is why I chose a map from 2014 and not a more contemporary one. The extent of the disputed region depends on the definition of "disputed" and that is a political issue which I am neither able nor willing to explore here .
Cheers.
Rod Robertson.

The extent of the disputed region depends on the definition of "disputed" and that is a political issue which I am neither able nor willing to explore here .
---------------
its only disputed by those like RT who try to big up the issue into some kind of silly Russian speakers vs Ukrainian speakers thing when go to Kyiv and a lot of the people you meet speak Russian (the most ardent Ukrainian nationalist ladies I met were Russian speakers). One might as well start making maps of Ulster claiming that this or that county is 'disputed' because a few criminals renegades from the I Ran Away are still mooching around

Went into the local bank today and shot the bank manager, two tellers and a customer. Cleaned out the tellers' cash drawers and left the building with several thousand dollars of "disputed" money. No problem, it is just "disputed" money. Not even going to discuss the "disputed" shooting victims of my enterprise.

Please note: I did NOT really shoot anyone or ever rob a bank!

GNREP8:

Polling data from 2014 indicates that there was more fear of linguistic assimilation and more support for separatism than your comment seems to indicate. It was always a minority but not a fringe movement especially across the south of Ukraine.

Support for a union between Russia and Ukraine was found to be much higher in certain areas:

41.0% Crimea
33.2% Donetsk Oblast
24.1% Luhansk Oblast
24.0% Odessa Oblast
16.7% Zaporizhia Oblast
15.1% Kharkiv Oblast
13.8% Dnipropetrovsk Oblast

link

zoneofcontrol:

Well, that response was silly and eminently unpersuasive.

Cheers.
Rod Robertson.

Does seem rather counterproductive to seal a border into another country, through which your own troops, vehicles, and logistical supplies and ammo transit through on a regular basis.

Therefore, I can see why it is still open.

Why mess up a good thing?

;-)

So by those figures Rod, 60% in Crimea are against it, 66% of Donetsk and 75%+ in other 'disputed' regions. While being aware of the (largely unfounded but stirred up by Russian media propaganda) concerns of ethnic Russians, it would appear to show that the vast majority are very much not in favour.

The maps I provided show the region in 2014, as does the original map showing the actual area under occupation. This has been fairly stable since 2014, and shows just how little of Ukraine is really in conflict, which is in contrary to the image that pro-annexation would have people believe. It is not half the country in conflict, it is not east v west, it is merely 50km or so along an area of border that Russia has signed up to seal and return control to Ukraine, but continues to pay lip service to actually doing so.

I am tempted to download the PDF scenario book, it looks interesting, but I don't think it is regarding 'disputed' as any wider than the conflict zone itself

Depends on the poll, most of the ones I can find on the Crimea seem to support this:

'In June 2014, a Gallup poll with the Broadcasting Board of Governors asked Crimeans if the results in the March 16, 2014 referendum to secede reflected the views of the people. A total of 82.8% of Crimeans said yes. When broken down by ethnicity, 93.6% of ethnic Russians said they believed the vote to secede was legitimate, while 68.4% of Ukrainians felt so. Moreover, when asked if joining Russia will ultimately make life better for them and their family, 73.9% said yes while 5.5% said no.' link

link

link

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My theory is that the prize was Crimea, the rest is just distraction to keep everyone's eye off the ball. Crimea is a done deal; won by Russia.

Yep, must keep that strategic naval base, since Russia has so few of them.

Let's get it clear. It's a "terrorist" region, since Kiev oficialy calls them "Terorists", not "separatists" or anything else.

I bought this book after seeing it on this thread and I am quite pleased with it for what I paid, I got the printed version. It has 10 scenarios based on events ranging from border clashes to urban assaults to tank battles. Each scenario comes with a setting, an order of battle for both sides, victory conditions, aftermaths, a map, and special rules. I will probably use this with my homebrew rules and may even extrapolate some of the scenarios for my modern African imagi-nation game. All in all I give this book a 7/10.