"GOT "Battle of the Bastards"" Topic

An epic … harsh … ruthless … … asphyxiating … legendary battle with an ending of pure action and blood … rivers of blood … something to see and not to forget easily …

At one point I had stopped breathing without realizing … suffering the same Asphyxiation of the brave of Jon Snow…

A true carnage … but also a glorious butchery …

I suffered the death of the brave giant and enjoyed the cruel dead of the sadistic bastard…

The final smile of Sansa … Oh!…worth the whole chapter …!

In the other hand, the battle of Mereen was not bad… but It was completely overshadowed by the great main battle.

Would Dany get a tried with the Pirate woman? (smile)… they change some suspect smiles… (smile).

What is going to ask Littlefinger?.
Sansa as wife?… or her as wife of his adopted son? (adopted or real one?)…

In some moment, the combat shield lines of the North warriors remember me to the Romans in battle…

Poor Jon Snow… he was brave but not very clever… Sansa advice him that Ramsay was much better in that path… and he show him how to shok your enemy …and to make the wrong strategy…

Good level… same of the battle of Blackwater…

About the "advances" of the next chapter… the toast of the Frey with the Lannisters … not remember you something similar? (smile)

I have seen this chapter twice now…

Amicalement
Armand

Some of the best "battlefield" camera work I've ever seen.

I. . . uh have completely different takeaways.

The uh "starter death" was bad. These couple of seasons have been bad for killing characters or giving characters bad turns out of nowhere, but to literally forget about two characters, bring them back, then kill them pointlessly or at best to give Ramsay Bolton heel heat was foolish. Ramsay already has more than enough heel heat for being Ramsay Bolton, but (spoilers) him fairly defeating Stannis, killing Roose, Osha, and now Rickon was stupid.

Now for the fight, we have a bad CG horse collision, followed by the worst cavalry battle of all time, and following around Jon on foot, who is fighting people who look exactly the same as the other northerners in his army. I mean, some of them have Morion type helmets, but a lot of them don't have helmets or just were mail coifs. I hate the Lanister helmets, but at least they all were them and they have distinctive armor. I couldn't tell who was who until the Wildings joined in the fighting. Which leads us into part 2. . .

Now for the infantry fight, or perhaps I should append snark quotes of infantry "fight". Somehow, every horse in both armies have end up massacred and behind the wilding/stark foot. Now Jon Snow, idiot that he is, allows his men to be trapped between this wall and a horseshoe of Northern pikemen fronted by Bolton pavisers( which incidentally is the first time Northerners are seen using pikes or pavises, always a good thing when random changes happen) Then they start the Roman testudo style stab-step thing that only ever looked good in three hundred.

So they're all being massacred/crushed to death against the TACTICAL GENIUS of Ramsay Friggin Bolton, when for some reason that Faithless ing Umber that is LEADING THE INFANTRY decides "I'll climb the wall trapping the enemy and start punching Tormund in the face" so Tormund gets his butt kicked for a while by the living embodiment of betrayal of the book until. . .

"The Eagles! The Eagles!"
Okay, you CANNOT PULL OFF hope unlooked for if you spend HALF THE SEASON telling the audience Littlefinger will arrive at the nick of time. So, Littlefinger arrives in the nick of time with that Eric Bischoff smile I've grown to loathe, the knights of the Vale slam into Ramsays forces, Tormund stabs False Small Jon Umber to death with an antler( yay), Ramsay runs like a pansay, Wun Wun smashes the gates, dies, Ramsay is somehow not immediately pincushioned by the Wildings, and Jon beats him to death the end.

So, good points. . . Davos telling the archers not to fire, as they'd only hit their own men. Tormund killing False Jon Umber.

So I believe we can safely say that if this is the "Cannon Version" of Bastard Bowl, bring the Expanded Universe.

Well, things you miss just watching the battle on Youtube. Ramsay survived for later consumption, complaint retracted.

Jon had this perfect plan, with ditches protecting his flanks. To the amazement of the Wildlings!
So what does he do? He immediately charges out of the protection solo.
Jon is a tactical idiot, and Ramsey's plan should have worked.

With his tactical genius, the White Walkers will be dipping their toes in the surf in Dorne by the second week of next season. This will happen right after the other Stark genius Bran brings the Wall down by fleeing to Castle Black, voiding the wards on the Wall.

The opposite for me, I loved it and thought the CG was impressive. Really impressed with the Dragons, wow

Duane

It all looked good to me as well. My wife and I enjoyed it greatly and were well pleased with the form of Ramsay's demise.

Overall, I like the episode, but is sure felt rushed by the inclusion of the Myreen battle.

Funniest moment- Dragon Queen gets on her dragon and my normally very demure and chaste wire says to me, "Do you think she has to worry about those spikes on the dragon's back poking her in the privates?"

After this episode, I am back in the anti Sansa crowd. First, she complains that she has things she can contribute and that no one would listen to her, but she stood there mute during the entire planning session. I didn't hear anyone say, "Sansa, don't talk." Classic projection. She assumes they won't listen to her, so she doesn't say anything. Then, when he says, "Ok, tell me your advice, I'm listening." She basically says, "I have no idea. Just don't trust him. He's smart and cunning. Oh and Rickon is a goner." I'm not sure he could have simply ignored his brother being shot at. He's look very callous to his troops had he just sat there and watched. It doesn't help that Rickon went to the Prometheus school of running straight ahead when he ran right past several of the crosses he could have ducked behind. He was a goner this episode for sure, though.

The real kicker to me, though, is that Sansa is furious at Jon for not attacking with enough troops, but never tells him that she has a huge army at her beck and call, but lets her pride get in the way. She lets all those people (and one giant) go off to their deaths knowing that she could at any minute simply say, "Well, little finger has the troops we need very close. He's a snake, and I don't trust him, but why don't we use him in the battle?" I would certainly never trust her after that if I was Jon. Honestly, at this point, as a character, if she were to get bumped off by a bad paper cut, I'd probably cheer.

I like the end scene of Ramsey getting it, but the whole end game of Ramsey seemed driven by the script, rather than reality. All these guys rush in to get Ramsey, and he doesn't end up as a pin cushion just so that Jon can pummel him? I very much doubt it. And then Sansa, who is standing right there somehow loses sight of what happens to Ramsey so that she has to demand from Jon where he is? Are you really telling me she wouldn't have been watching him like a hawk from the second the battle was over? What, did they move him when she had to go to the bathroom or something?

Yes, I saw the episode and said 'You know nothing Jon Snow…. about military discipline'. I mean they couldn't have made Jon look like a bigger idiot if they tried. Jon let Ramsey play him like a fiddle the entire battle, just as Sansa warned. Gods, the North is doomed if Jon is the one leading them.*

That said, the battle itself LOOKED impressive, it was a good piece of film making, the arrival of the knights of the Vale was satisfying (though expected), complete with Littlefinger's so-ing-smug 'I saved the day and didn't get muddy' smile.

The battle of Mereen was comparatively tame. It also demonstrated that no one in Essos really pays attention to recent history, since the slave lords should have realized that every single person to oppose Dany dies horribly in a fire. Every single one. What makes you think you're different?

*Though based on the previews for next week I wonder if the plot is going to be that Sansa forces Jon out, since she has the Stark name and he doesn't, and it's clear that Jon doesn't listen to her. Will be interesting to see.

-Will

Also why didn't they give the Giant a weapon? They could have cut down a tree and taken the limbs off and that Giant could have smashed the Bolton's pseudo-phalanx in no time. And then the poor brute dies because Jon is standing around like an idiot instead of straight up murdering Ramsey Bolton like he was supposed to. You know nothing Jon Snow!

-Will

After this episode, I am back in the anti Sansa crowd. First, she complains that she has things she can contribute and that no one would listen to her, but she stood there mute during the entire planning session. I didn't hear anyone say, "Sansa, don't talk." Classic projection. She assumes they won't listen to her, so she doesn't say anything. Then, when he says, "Ok, tell me your advice, I'm listening." She basically says, "I have no idea. Just don't trust him. He's smart and cunning. Oh and Rickon is a goner." I'm not sure he could have simply ignored his brother being shot at. He's look very callous to his troops had he just sat there and watched

I think that Sansa gave Jon two very good pieces of advice;

1) Don't do what he wants you to do…this is a classic military maxim. Jon winds up, when Rickon is killed, doing what Ramsay wants him to do, making a suicide run, in his anger, at Ramsay. It's Davos who realizes that the only chance to save Jon is to launch a general assault "follow your commander!"
2)Rickon is dead, he's already dead from the moment he fell into Ramsay's hands. Here we see a great difference between an experienced commander, the Blackfish, and one who lets his emotions carry him, Jon. Faced with the death of Edmure the Blackfish, knowing that the Castle is more important than one man, tells the Freys to kill him. Jon makes a valiant effort to get to Rickon, when he can't it's over. Had he returned to his lines he might still have been able to draw Ramsay in.

Jon had this perfect plan, with ditches protecting his flanks. To the amazement of the Wildlings!
So what does he do? He immediately charges out of the protection solo.
Jon is a tactical idiot, and Ramsey's plan should have worked.

Jon let his emotions carry him away, similar to the French Cavalry at Agincourt.

The real kicker to me, though, is that Sansa is furious at Jon for not attacking with enough troops, but never tells him that she has a huge army at her beck and call, but lets her pride get in the way. She lets all those people (and one giant) go off to their deaths knowing that she could at any minute simply say, "Well, little finger has the troops we need very close. He's a snake, and I don't trust him, but why don't we use him in the battle?" I would certainly never trust her after that if I was Jon. Honestly, at this point, as a character, if she were to get bumped off by a bad paper cut, I'd probably cheer.

We know that she sent off a raven to Littlefinger but we never saw a response. Perhaps she didn't get one until LF rides up with the Knights of the Vale.

Yes, I saw the episode and said 'You know nothing Jon Snow…. about military discipline'. I mean they couldn't have made Jon look like a bigger idiot if they tried. Jon let Ramsey play him like a fiddle the entire battle, just as Sansa warned. Gods, the North is doomed if Jon is the one leading them.*

My take away is that Sansa should be the overall political leader and strategist and Jon should just be her General. Jon had done okay until now, he let his emotions overwhelm him. We'll see if that happens again, I don't think it will.

I like the end scene of Ramsey getting it, but the whole end game of Ramsey seemed driven by the script, rather than reality. All these guys rush in to get Ramsey, and he doesn't end up as a pin cushion just so that Jon can pummel him? I very much doubt it. And then Sansa, who is standing right there somehow loses sight of what happens to Ramsey so that she has to demand from Jon where he is?

I think that there may have been a feeling (okay, I know that they are reacting to a script but…) that "we're taking this jerk alive and he's going to die slowly and horribly". I take it to be similar to when Michael Corleone's room is sprayed with automatic weapons fire in "GodfatherII, he tells his men "I want them alive!" Also in that case I would want Ramsay under lock and key as soon as possible. Sansa isn't in the initial assault force that breaks into Winterfell. She doesn't necessarily see where he has been taken, she may not have even known if he was taken alive. If I had been Ramsay I don't think that I would have wanted to fall into Stark hands.

I suffered the death of the brave giant and enjoyed the cruel dead of the sadistic bastard…

The final smile of Sansa … Oh!…worth the whole chapter …!

For me this was the most satisfying death scene since Comodus is killed by Maximus in "The Gladiator"

In the other hand, the battle of Mereen was not bad… but It was completely overshadowed by the great main battle.

A classic example of air power vs. surface ships.

"Sansa isn't in the initial assault force that breaks into Winterfell. She doesn't necessarily see where he has been taken, she may not have even known if he was taken alive. "

Except that she was there, on camera. As Jon is beating Ramsey, she rides in and he stops and looks at her as the camera pulls back and Jon stands up. She was there. It felt like a continuity break when in the very next scene she asks where Ramsey went. She was on her horse- right there- in the scene.

Yes, Jon played right into Ramsey's hands, but again, this is his half brother. Yes it was stupid and emotional for him to ride off on his own. However, it was his half brother. Rickon was certainly dead, but it would take a heart of stone to just sit there and do nothing when he's being shot at. It's too bad he couldn't come up with anything better than to just rush off blindly.

And let's face it- Ramsey's not genius in this battle either. Jon's army is really worried about Ramsey's obvious superiority in cavalry. What does Ramsey do? He kills his entire cavalry force. Cavalry are incredibly expensive to operate and maintain. He just killed his most expensive and hard to replace force- and for what? So he can get sadistic glee from all the pin cushioning? That's not exactly smart generalship, either.

Also, regardless of Sansa writing the letter, she told nothing of it to Jon. She has several thousand soldiers in her back pocket and says nothing. Why? She doesn't trust Little Finger. Got it. He shouldn't be trusted. Why not, however, trust her brother by at least telling him about it and making it clear that Little Finger is a pig. Why not confide in him?

If Little Finger and Sansa were in reverse positions in this everyone would say how devious Little Fish was for keeping secret force secret. Would you trust someone who did that to you if you were the one fighting and dying on the field?

Why does Sansa get a pass on this?

Sorry guys, John is an idiot. Ruined the entire final battle for me, I KNEW they would be saved – no tension means no fun. It would have been more fun if he died and came back a few times during the battle.

Why does Sansa get a pass on this?

I don't think she DOES get a pass; it just shows that she's more devious and smarter than Jon.

Ramsey wasn't fighting all that smart either, but his plan actually worked. So he's smarter than Jon was.

If Jon was going to ride off on a damn fool attempt to save Rickon, then he should have just launched a general attack. That might have even shaken Ramsey's aim enough to do poor Rickon some good.

Sorry guys, John is an idiot.

Why are you saying sorry, several of the posts in this thread agree with you! ;)

-Will

I think Ramsey should have been held about 4 feet off the ground and lower very slowly.

Come on!… nobody here could act like Jon Snow when your little brother are running to you?… I know that this was Ramsay game… but many times your hart command your mind!…

And when he fought… he did as a lion!…

Even Davos… a more experience commander in battle fell in Ramsay trap!…

Wu Wu didn't need a weapon… he can split into two a man with his own hands… (smile).

In some momement he used a shield…

I think Littlefinger never advice Sansa… probably he was laid down in a hill watching the battle untill he decided to attack.. and save the day…

What Littlefinger ask now…?

What about the toast of the Frey with the Lannisters…?.

Amicalement
Armand

Sorry guys, John is an idiot.

He had a bad day. He had done well in his prior fights at the Wall.

Except that she was there, on camera. As Jon is beating Ramsey, she rides in and he stops and looks at her as the camera pulls back and Jon stands up. She was there. It felt like a continuity break when in the very next scene she asks where Ramsey went. She was on her horse- right there- in the scene.

Forgot about that but then again maybe it was a continuity problem, it wouldn't be the first. And there is, as there always seems to be, a time/space problem. We don't even know who has decided to put Ramsay in the kennel instead of the dungeon (my money here is on Sansa). Either way though, this is the big thing to focus on, that she asks Jon where he is? It's a pretty small thing in a really big episode.

As for Ramsay's tactics, how on Earth did this guy beat Stannis? He massacres his own Cavalry. Were I him, and thinking deviously, I would have put the Umbers and the Karstarks in the front lines, let them take the heavy casualties. Save your cavalry for a later time. Either way I think it was obvious that the best commander on the field was Davos.

As for the whole Littlefinger controversy I think that the problem is that there is too much that we don't know. Has he responded to Sansa? Does Sansa trust him to show up? Either way Sansa was right, they needed more men.

Wu Wu didn't need a weapon… he can split into two a man with his own hands… (smile).

Agreed, if Wu Wu felt that he needed a tree I'm pretty sure that he would have picked one up on the way.

What about the toast of the Frey with the Lannisters…?.

Isn't that the same toast (substitute Tullys for Lannisters) that kicked off the Red Wedding? It doesn't bode well.

Exactly!… I feel that the Frey is going to copy their last bretrayal with the Lannister…!.

Amicalement
Armand

The most terrifying words heard in the North.
Jon Snow saying "I have a plan".

> Come on!… nobody here could act like Jon Snow when your little brother are running to you?…

I would have told the second in command to stick to the plan no matter what first. And once Ricon was dead I would have gotten the body and high tailed it back – after giving Ramsey the equivalent of the finger…

> He had a bad day. He had done well in his prior fights at the Wall.

He had worse, he had plot induced stupidity when Sansa had already warned him the night before.

Spoiler Question- I wonder if Frey will try to pull the the red wedding treatment on Jaime, but when they go to launch the attack, Jaime has thought ahead, and instead it is the Frey's who get theirs this time around?

Also, with the Red lady around, why isn't it possible to raise Rickon and Wun Wun (or even Ramsey for that matter)?

So Ramsey is dead as is Umber but what about Karstark?

Oh and Dany did not need to burn every ship since the crew and soldiers did the smart thing after seeing the first ship go up in flames.

I.E. jump ship.

Also, with the Red lady around, why isn't it possible to raise Rickon and Wun Wun (or even Ramsey for that matter)?

As Mel says herself, she doesn't have any power; the Red God decided to bring back Jon, for reasons Mel herself doesn't understand. I don't think Mel can pull the trick whenever she wants.

As for Ramsay's tactics, how on Earth did this guy beat Stannis?

I'm assuming that Roose came up with the plan there…. Ramsey also wasn't batting a hundred. If Jon hadn't been so Jon he probably had a pretty good chance of beating Ramsey with the original plan….

I would have told the second in command to stick to the plan no matter what first. And once Ricon was dead I would have gotten the body and high tailed it back – after giving Ramsey the equivalent of the finger…p

Yes! He basically forced his troops into a terrible position by being reckless. He should have acted as if Rickon was dead no matter what and stuck to the plan. That's what Sansa was trying to tell him.

-Will

The Battle of Wintherfeld …

YouTube link

Amicalement
Armand

I think Davos was quite switched on but whoever was in actual command of the Vale Knights was better. he maintained surprise (OK, the opposition was occupied), deployed right out of march, hit the right point and then maintained tactical control as his horse rolled up the Bolton army. So, unless he was Uxbridge, he wasn't British ahem. I am wondering if Jons reaction and the way he attacked Ramsay, isn't a hint of Targaryen rage as opposed to northern fury.

I'd also expect Jon to be edged out of Winterfell and end up in charge of a reformed Watch on the "Northern Front". Presumably any Bolton survivors could be offered the Black.

You'd like to think Jaime is about to deal with the Freys; they proved inept at the siege and are utterly untrustworthy. If he thinks he's heading into a fight with any kind of rump northern army, liquidating the Freys secures his position far more than any deal.

I was reminded – and maybe GRRM was inspired by – Gwindor and Gelmir in the Fifth Battle of the Silmarillion. The Elves had their plan to lure out Morgoth and beat him in a defensive battle, but he had the captive Gelmir (Gwindor's brother) brought out and executed in front of the lines, driving Gwindor into a rage and luring him into a trap.

Oh GRRM is pretty much inspired by other writers. His main contribution is to make the politics more gritty. Raymond Feist pointed to it a bit, but Martin took it much further.