"Woodland Indian horsemanship" Topic

Hello my 18th Century-inclined cousins,

I am a long-time TMPer but a virtual newcomer to these 18th Century boards, as my hobby activity is generally focused on 14th-15th Century Medieval and Victorian Colonial periods (particularly the Second Afghan War of 1878-1880). But now I have a question I hope you folks can help me with…

How common, if at all, was horse ownership and expertise among the Native Americans of the North-East in the mid-to-late 18th Century?

My generalist knowledge of the F&IW and AWI leads me to guess that horses and horsemanship played little to no role in the life of those communities, even as it was already a vital aspect of the life of those Tribes who had contact with the Spanish in the South-West, but that is just a barely-educated guess on my part.

Would it be at all historically accurate to field any individual warriors or small units of mounted Iriquois, Mohawk, etc., at the time of the F&IW or AWI?

Thanks in advance for any guidance you can offer, which will be very much appreciated!

In a game played in the wilds of Luzerne County, Magua's Light Horse Scout Lancers were remarked upon by Les Anglais to the point that the Recoats were totally distracted by the entire unit of six individual mounted figures and thus went into square to march through the woods to their ultimate doom.

Thus, a wargame tale was born in the basement of John the OFM…

In reality, Upstate New York and New England ain't exactly horse country. Even the ranging companies raised would dismount to fight.

At least from what I've read.

Eric

Glickman's history of the Wyoming Valley and Massacre has a few mentions of small parties of mounted Iroquois conducting raids on isolated homes right after the Wyoming Massacre, when the Valley was denuded of white settlers.
As Eric says, it was not proper horse country. That doesn't mean it can't support 6 "Dragoons" (2 packs of Conquest figures ), but more than that is probably too much for a culture that did not have any background at all in horsemanship.
Basically, ride up, dismount.

And yes. In the game I ran, 6 riders, who were basically majestic looking tourists, threw the whole English side into disarray.
I thought it was hilarious, and so did Mark "commanding" Magua's Dragoon Guards.

Woodland Indians were not a nomadic people, so they were not part of the Plains Indian horse culture. And horses were not common throughout all of the Plains Tribes until the late 1700s. You are correct that the SW Indians got horses from the Spanish. Not that the Spanish voluntarily gave the Indians horses because to do so would be giving up an advantage, so the Spanish made Indian ownership of a horse was against the law, but significant horse stock was left behind when the Spanish had to flee during the Pueblo Revolt of 1680 (The Pueblo Revolt of 1680: Conquest and Resistance in Seventeenth-Century New Mexico by Andrew L. Knaut is an interesting read). Some marauding Indians had some horses before the revolt, but the revolt is what released thousands of horses to the Indians. The Spanish ranches used Pueblo slaves to work with horses, so the Pueblo were the conduit for horse trading to Plains Indians but, as noted, it took many years for the horse culture to spread throughout the plains states. The horses used East of the Mississippi were not of Spanish colonial horse stock

I'm widely read on this era, but no great expert. At the risk of exposing my own ignorance…

I can't think of any references to eastern Indians using horses before the 1770s, except that the Mohawk chief Hendrick was given a horse as a special mark of esteem by his British friends, and rode it on the Bloody Morning Scout in 1755 at Lake George, when he was killed. He may have had the only horse in the Iroquois League at the time.

By the 1770s, white-educated Indians like Mohawk chief Joseph Brant knew how to ride and harness horses and owned a few.

I have read that about this time, starting in the mid-1770s, Shawnees in particular and other Ohio country warriors (Delawares, Miamis, Mingos, Wyandots) stole many horses from the Kentucky settlements, enough to establish small herds. In the long war for the old Northwest, up until the 1795 Greenville Treaty, individual Indians and war parties sometimes traveled on horseback, although they almost always dismounted to fight.

By the 1830s, remaining eastern Indians often used horses for transportation and draft. I have a book of paintings by an artist named George Winter showing Potawatomies in Indiana riding horses in the early 1830s. The Cherokees and other 'civilized' tribes in the south took up horse riding along with other elements of white farming culture.

I don't know why it took until the 1770s for eastern Indians to take up horse riding. It's true that the eastern woodlands in general were poor horse country, but white traders and settlers used horses from a very early date, riding them and using them as pack animals even along foot trails.

I wonder whether other useful domestic animals, chickens, cattle, sheep and swine, were adopted by Indians at the same time as the horse or at different times. The southern tribes adopted these other animals as part of white farming culture.

Southern Woodland tribes used horses a lot. Initially they were good as pack animals for the Chickasaw to carry furs to the English on the Atlantic coast. The Muskogee/ Creek used them as did other tribes for transport during none wartime journeys. The Muskogee were heavily influenced by British traders who gained status in their tribes. It was not unusual for war chiefs to ride to a battle and dismount for the contrast. In the first battle at Brunt corn creek, the Upper Creeks were using horses as pack animals.upper Creek Chiefs fought the battles of Holy Ground and Fort Mims mounted.

I rely on two Erics here.
Eric at Conquest made the figures I used. He is a known fanatic for accuracy, and graciously allowed me to buy two, and only two packs at a convention.
Eric of epturner fame is another accuracy fanatic. He would have slapped me silly for even thinking about using inaccurate figures in a game. However, maybe beer and chili mellowed him.

I am happy to use such nice figures. But only 6 on a table with over 300 figures.

The English imposing harsh penalties for Indians stealing horses was one of the factors contributing to the bad blood leading to Pontiac's War. Presumably they knew what the horses were used for.That pushes it back to the 1760s at least.

Not common at all. The eastern woodland Indians were not part of a horse culture. Anyone who has worked with horses knows they are a lot of work to maintain. Horses eat a lot, and the British had a devil of a time feeding theirs when they were coming over the mountains. Open meadows with grass (fodder) were not that common and usually the English had to bring fodder for the horses. Not much for a horse to eat in the forest.

Further, you just don't jump up on a horse an start riding it. Learning to ride a horse is an acquired skill, not one you just do on the spur of the moment because you stole a horse. If Indians had any stolen horses they would be more likely to us it as a pack animal to carry acquired goods.

Rudy, the Creek Civil War broke out in 1812, by which time the southern tribes were well along in the 'civilizing' process, even the Red Stick Creeks. It would be interesting to know how early a date can be established for southern Indians riding and packing on horses, and how usage spread over time.

nochules, that's an interesting cite on Pontiac's Rebellion. 1760s it is.

I'm unfamiliar with the British imposing penalties on Indians stealing horses. Could you provide more information on that?

When the Sullivan expedition invaded Iroquoia in 1779, one of the towns they destroyed was "Queen Esther's Town." One journalist in the army commented that this town specialized in raising horses for the rest of the Iroquoian nations.
This shouldn't surprise us. At nearby Kendaia, the army found an orchard of 5,000 fruit trees. After two centuries of contact with Euro-Americans some Iroquois lived in log cabins with glass windows and flower boxes. Some of the New Hampshire frontiersmen in army were destroying villages and buildings better than what they had back home.

@Zippy: A quick flip through Parkman's "Conspiracy of Pontiac" notes the Iroquois had, "Horses, swine, and in some instances cattle …" (p149,1908 edition). That said, I didn't find any other reference to horses in my cursory search, and Parkman invariably lists Indian war parties moving by canoe or through forests. A few mounted Indians finding their way into some scenarios wouldn't be out of the question.

There was a tendency even among colonial militia that had horses to dismount and fight on foot. I imagine the same would also be even more true of woodland indians. Even assuming you did have some go into battle mounted, it would be as individual warriors rather than as a form of cavalry.

Given the nature of virgin forest and lack of roads, I would have thought canoe was a better method of long-distance travel anyway.

Who taught them how to ride? Everyone keeps ignoring the fact that untrained riders just don't jump on a horse and start riding. That won't end well for the rider. :-)

Indians certainly saw others ride, so it is not as if they didn't know what a horse could do. A few of them might have received a pointer or two from a European but, I imagine, it was mostly the school of hard knocks. You don't have to attend a cavalry school to ride a horse, and Woodland Indian were not noted horsemen, but that does not mean that they were incapable of figuring out how to ride. As noted by another poster, I imagine most of them dismounted for combat. When I was a boy I got on a friend's horse and rode it around the yards. I had never been on a horse nor had any instruction. I was by no means a horseman and would have fallen off if the horse wanted to do something other than walk, but it certainly is not an insurmountable task to teach yourself how to ride. It is a fact that some Woodland Indians owned horses. It is a fact that some Woodland Indians rode horses. It makes absolutely no difference by what method an Indian learned to stay on top of a horse. Who taught the first horse riders how to ride?

Winston,
What kind did you get off Eric?I know he has mounted Comanches and Shawnees but does he have something that wasn't put in production?

Do you ride 79th? :-)

No, I do not, but that does not refute anything I posted. If you are a horseman, I would be interested to know who taught the first horse riders how to ride, since your position seems to be that one cannot learn to ride without proper instruction, which would mean that we would never have had the first horse rider to begin with, and we would all just be staring at horses wondering what to do with them. Or do I misunderstand your point?

Edit: Again, what difference does it make how an Indian learned to ride?

Marco, theyveeee simply mounted Woodland Indians.
Maybe they were Shawnee.

So your assertion is that right after they captured a horse they hopped up on it and rode away? Yes, I do ride, and I find that ascertion nonsense.

First off, if the horse were just a pack horse and had never been broken to ride, no one is jumping on and riding it. Was the horse rein or leg trained? Jerking a horse around and not knowing what you are doing gets you a quick exit from the horse, perhaps even injured.

Sorry, as a rider of some years, I just don't buy it. In fact, no one who knows horses would.

And yes, it does refute what you posted as you don't know what you are talking about when it comes to horses. Yours is a position of speculation and suposition; mine is one of experience and training, and even I admit I am not that great of a horseman.

Unless someone has had some experience riding, a captured horse would be useless.

I saw a highly experienced rider once (Life Guards) unable to coax his horse to cross a big wooden bridge. He had to dismount and eventually lead it across. He only knew to do that from training. The horse was quite agitated and only his experience kept it in hand. I have seen riders of some experience thrown from their horses when they spooked.

Also, if I horse hasn't been trained for gunfire, it will bolt at the first shot. They are flight animals.

All of that may very well be true. I also know a rider whose horse got spooked by a balloon. And I never said that someone could grab any old horse and ride across the country on their first try. For some reason you refuse to acknowledge that a person is capable of learning to ride a horse (and that does not mean they are a particularly good horseman or a cavalryman) without being trained by someone else. It is a fact that some Woodland Indians owned horses. It is a fact that some Woodland Indians rode horses. For the third time, what difference does it make how they learned to ride a horse and, if a person cannot ride a horse without training, how did the first people learn to ride a horses?

The OP wanted to know if some Woodland Indians ever rode horses. The answer is "Yes." You are looking for an argument where there isn't one. I wont comment on it further. You may do as you please.

Somebody gave Hendrick a few riding lessons along with that horse. Joseph Brant had as good an education as any colonist in British North America, could ride a horse when he pleased. Somebody taught someone who taught somebody else. But it's true that the eastern woodlands of North America, especially the mountains are not good horse country, and the Indians were slow to adopt European livestock as long as they could still make a living the old way, by hunting and gardening with hand tools.

I would say that the eastern indians learned from the european colonists.Same foe the west,I am sure by the time of the Pueblo Revolt in the southwest that some indians had learned from the Spanish.
Mark

True on the Creek War but the Lower Creek Muskogee fought the Spanish in Florida as part of the Muskogee Free State and was recognized by the British. The British withdrawing support after 1808 is why the Lower Creek sided with the Americans later.

the Chickasaw references were part of the Franco-Chickasaw Wars of the 1730s until about 1750s. Due to the value of a horse, they were not used in these actions as war animals.

Sorry 79th, I came across a little harsh there and I apologize.

I fell for the old TMP trick of getting off topic and lost in the weeds.

As you said, to refocus on the question – yes, some Indians rode horses, but it was not their common way of travelling, and certainly not in combat. It was less likely during the F&I period, a bit more so in the AWI, even more so by 1812 as they moved further west and had been in contact longer with Europeans.

I am not trying to be an ass, either; I apologize as well if I came across as one.

I agree with your above statement. As I said in my first post re. Parkman's work, a cursory glance showed one entry about horses, and a multitude of entries about traveling by canoe and foot.

Wargamers have used less evidence than that to justify strange units.
I have 6 mounted Woodland Indians. I have 200+ on foot. I don't think I am getting carried away.

79th:

Good citing of Parkman. He is still the man all these years later. You can't argue with a citation like that.

WINSTON – sounds like a reasonable mix.

They turned out to be what some wargame rules called "a cause of unease." Totally in the minds of the other side.
They never did anything but appear in a clearing in a game that was the first dry run of my hidden movement rules. Like I said, tourists.

Horses were almost exclusively the domain of Plains and Texas Indians. This is where the Spanish brought horses back to the New World and later were adopted and breed by the Plains Indians.

Horse culture transformed the Plains Tribes. It was the perfect vehicle for hunting buffalo across the treeless plains. Fine light cavalry, but very erratic.

For the East Coast and Mid-West tribes not so much. No giant herds of animals to keep up with. Too many trees. Different culture.

The Indians learned by observing the Spanish and a lot of trial and error. They picked it up just fine. How the heck do you think the first humans learned to ride horses?

It was a brave man who first mounted a horse.

I remember that scene in the "Last of the Mohicans"(1992), where the first thing Hawkeye did, while trying to evade the bad guys, was to get rid of the horses.

Sorry to circle back after all this time.

"The Skulking Way Of War" talks primarily about the increased use of firearms by First Nations in New England in the 1600's but also includes other technological "things" the natives adopted from the settlers.

One thing that was mentioned was the use of horses.

Not common, at all, but as Winston said, six figures out of 300 on the table, who basically just sat there and did nothing, except distract the Redcoats.

Eric

And they are on very large steel washers as based. Not much room for a knee to knee charge.

guys guys it was as easy as paying some frontiersman for the horses and the lessons