"Pros & Cons of a shorter Convention?" Topic

Reading Richard Clark's piece in WSS 84 prompts the question: what if Historicon/Cold Wars/Fall In was just Saturday and Sunday?

Leave the obvious out, is it more profitable for HMGS? Vendors? I can't believe this hasn't been discussed somewhere. Maybe it has?

Bad move. Really that makes it a one day conventipn, Saturday as Sunday is DEAD DEAD DEAD, everyone uses that as a travel day to go home. If you were going to do this make it a Friday and Saturday con.

I don't subscribe to WSS so can't read Mr Clark's article but it's an interesting concept. I guess it would make the show a bit more regional in nature than Historicon strives to be now which will mean a smaller attendance. Doing show my allow us to have 4 show a year than three and potentially have a wider range of venue options

Personally I'd rather see 4 1,500 people shows than the current 3 HMGS ones we have now.

Given the wear and tear on vendors adding a 4th show with fewer attendees at each may not be all that attractive of a proposition.

I am fairly sure HMGS tracks attendee origins as well as they can, so the effect of shortening the conventions could probably be estimated with some reason able degree of accuracy.

In the HMGS are there already are a few one/two day conventions. NJ Con and Barrage Gaming Day. There are similar things up and down the coast as well. As others have said the problem is mostly one of the spread out nature of US gamers – if a con is one day it will be a local affair only.

Just about every show in the UK is a one day show but the UK and the US are different hobby animals.

A shorter show to me is one where I arrive early ( 10am ) and leave early ( 1 pm ).

For the three I go to shorter would mean I would not attend. Two are nine hour drives so a day or two gaming would not be worth the trip. Historicon is
closer (5 hours) but I go because there is so much time to enjoy myself.

No way I would go if it were just essentially Saturday – it's a 6 hr drive for me, and that uses up Wednesday and Sunday. I'd switch to closer, 1 day conventions. I can't see where it would be worthwhile for most dealers, either. Bad idea. bad, BAD idea!

JimUK, the distances also make a big difference. When I went to NashCon, it was a almost a 1300 mile round trip. That's like driving from Brighton to Inverness and back.

Also, we simply don't have the local clubs. I have been living in a new town for 6 months and I haven't found a single person to play war-games with. The closest people I know of are three hours away and there are only 2 people there.

So….to cut the Convention length will make me question if the travel distance is even worth it.

I think it is a bad idea. As others have stated when I lived back East, going to Historicon was a six hour drive and attending Cold Wars and Fall In was a nine hour drive. It really would not be worth the trip to only run/play/shop on one day. As someone stated Sunday is for travel back home. And now that I live in Texas I would most likely have to fly to attend, so again making the convention basically only one day (Saturday) would not be worth the cost of the plane ticket.

In the past when I could go my group would leave on a Thursday morning arriving in time to grab our room, dinner and then an evening open game. That set the tone nicely for the rest of the weekend and then we had the entire Friday and Saturday to run our games, play in others and enjoy the dealer's area and flea market. Often I sold items in the flea market to defer some of the cost of attending. Sunday was for a last trip into the dealer's hall and then we piled back into our vehicles exhausted, but happy after a long weekend of gaming, camaraderie, and buying swag. I miss those days.

It would be a disaster for the vendors I would think. Consider: table cost for most vendors is the smallest part of their costs. Renting (owning) a truck/trailer, travel, hotels, meals etc. I would think vendors coming from more than 2 or 3 hours away would stop coming entirely.

Also, if you cut out Thursday and Friday you cut in half the major point of the con – playing in games. As has been noted Sunday is pretty much dead. People might cruise the vendor hall for a few minutes but basically it's a travel day. So fewer games and fewer vendors. Fewer attendees….let the death spiral begin.

Also, isn't HMGS non-profit? seems silly to make decisions for profit if you are. After all they don't really do anything else besides run cons that I'm aware of…

Terrible idea. Exactly the kind of nonsense people come up with when they can't resist fiddling with something to death.

FYI, you want a short convention, you have it now. Go for one day and then go home and leave everybody else alone

It's unfortunate but the sheer size of the United States works against it in so many ways. Even regional shows make people drive hundreds of miles. Which doesn't make shorter shows worth it for the public.

Shorter shows, if attendance stayed the same would be great for dealers as room and board is our number one expense and every day at a show cuts into our potential profits enormously. Though I think that's partly because most of the gamers seem to come to shows to play and not buy.

Disaster. People split on Sundays, better Friday and Saturday.

A really bad idea.

There is no good argument for shorter conventions. Like Civil says, if the Convention is too long for you, simply go home sooner.

There is nothing wrong with the duration of the cons here.

Not viable for all the reasons mentioned.

Lots of good info.

There's no way I'm doing all that driving time back and forth to Fredericksburg if Historicon is only 2 days.

The better option is to just let dealers leave on Saturday night so they don't have to waste an extra day on a room, food, etc.

Could I just say that I did not suggest that Historicon should be a two day affair. In my column in WSS I simply pointed out that for US traders the cost of attending a Con is much higher than a UK trader attending a show. In the UK a trader will typically have one night's accommodation to pay for at the very most, this allows him to retain the bulk of his profits. For the US trader, walking away from a Convention with a healthy profit is much harder to achieve due to the additional costs incurred by the length of the event.

It seems to me that the hobby will only prosper if traders make sufficient profits to reinvest in their ranges and develop new exciting products. I do appreciate that for a majority of gamers in the US a Con is about playing games, however if the traders are not considered as being part of the engine which drive the success of the hobby then problems are likely to arise.

I don't have a solution to this conundrum, but I merely pointed out that it was a potential reason for US gamers saying the the trader halls at Cons are seeing a marked decline in the number of traders attending and, consequently, the limiting of choice of products. This flies entirely in the face of what is happening in the UK and Europe where trader numbers are increasing at show.

I actually think that Historicon shifting to a two day format would be insane, largely due to the travel distances involved. However, I also think that selecting a decent venue with modern facilities and toilets that work would make it an event which people are more inclined to attend. Last time I went to a major US Con I was sick for the whole event and for a month afterwards as a result of the ageing air-conditioning system which, my Doctor assured me, gave me a mini-version of Legionaries disease. It doesn't make me inclined to rush back.

Richard Clarke

Wow, your convention had functional AC? Couldn't have been the Host, which feels like a sauna inside even in Winter.

I think the solution is simply to let the vendors go home Saturday. I've seen some of them post about Sunday being a complete waste of time and money.

I wish the US conventions were longer. There is no reason the vendors need to be there every day. Wed. thru Sunday would be nice for gaming and camaraderie … The vendors could be there Friday and Saturday if cost is an issue for them.

Shorter cons for the vendors benefit? It's like the tail wagging the dog.

Mike B

In my column in WSS I simply pointed out that for US traders the cost of attending a Con is much higher than a UK trader attending a show.

That is very interesting. Let's compare Salute with Historicon. I would assume (perhaps incorrectly) that the ExCel London facilities would be more expensive to rent than the Fredericksburg Convention Center on a daily basis. I would also expect that accommodation in Central London is also more expensive than that of Fredericksburg. Perhaps there is a big difference with what the South London Warlords charge their vendors to show up and what HMGS charges ours.

I'll admit, I do a bit of shopping on Sunday morning with my leftover cash. However, it it makes a difference to the bottom line of the vendors by letting them go home early, then I'm all for it.

It's like the tail wagging the dog.

It is at that. Your points are excellent, Mike B. Sunday would be a farewell breakfast with friends before the long haul home.

Even though WBC is a week long event, the vendor area is only open from Friday thru Sunday. It used to be longer , but the vendors just sold the same amount of stuff spread out over a longer period of time, costing them more money and/or potential gaming time.

Making a con only two days is a mistake IMO. It just increases the amount of people who will look at the travel time to gaming time ratio and say "no way" .

@Bowman:

Now let's compare the other costs. To get to Historicon for me is a 14 hour drive, 760 miles each way. So 1500 miles. For a 4 day show. That means leave Wednesday. Accomodations for Wed., Thu., Fri., and Sat. 4 nights. Call it $400. USD Gas alone is likely to be 75 gallons or more (remember, I'm driving a heavily laden truck/van, not a sub-compact). So call that $250. USD Now my table costs. Call them $300. USD Then meals, tolls, and incidentals. $300. USD Grand total $1,250. USD To break even I need to sell approximately $5,000 USD in goods. To break even and pay myself $0. USD

So I stopped going to shows and my sales dropped off by….0.

Frankly, for the most part the same vendors attend the same shows. So if you've been to one you've kinda been to them all.

Frankly if you only by at shows you're likely an unprofitable customer for many vendors. That was my situation. A $500 USD sale I have to drive cross country to make is less profitable than a $50 USD sale through the mail.

The US is just too huge. My drive to Virginia is longer than driving from Inverness to Plymouth!

Mark, I agree with you. You said, "Let's compare the other costs". Ok, I'd say your expenses are going to be similar to Outpost Wargames when they go to Salute, but with much cheaper gas prices on your part. Everyone has to eat and everyone has incidental costs too. Depending on how you get to ExCel London you may have tolls. Parking is 15£ a day (roughly 21.68 US dollars)

It make sense to me how going to Historicon is not profitable for you. Sadly, I think many other vendors are thinking the same thing. The problem is that this is a four day event for you. That is why having the vendor area stay open throughout the entire convention is not making financial sense anymore. Given your location, perhaps Little Wars is a better proposition?

Frankly if you only by at shows you're likely an unprofitable customer for many vendors.

My situation is a bit different as I live in Canada. I try to time my purchases so I can pick them up at the shows, transport them myself, and carry them personally through customs. All that saves me shipping and customs duties. If I buy $100 USD worth of figures from you I get hit with import duties and customs. If I drive up, tell them I was at a convention and bought $100 USD worth of your figures, they usually wave me through.

Eventually, I will have the American vendors ship my purchases to my friends homes. I eventually pick up my purchases when we meet up at the conventions. I buy a lot from Litko this way, as they do not go to the HMGS conventions.

Just as a note to people saying "let vendors close Saturday to save money". We'd still have to pay for food and lodging that night anyway as we and most other companies live several hours drive away. So no money saved at all, even if no one buys anything Sundays, which is sadly common.

And it's not just Historicon that's not worth it for most dealers. It's increasingly all conventions. This year and last are the first where we lost money at shows.

And when packing up early are usually nervously reminded that we're supposed to stay until mid-afternoon Sunday. :)

To be regarded as a National drawing convention rather than just a regional show, the long show is needed to make the trip (drive or flying) cost reasonable. A very short convention would put a thought of doubt about attending into both the gamers and the vendors.
I never attend a one day game day event. It is not cost effective to do so.

Getting Fridays off in the summertime is usually doable. Arriving Thursday night (if possible) gives the gamer lots of time to review the PEL, hook up with old friends, have a quiet dinner for friends, play a board game, or just get a long night's sleep as there will be no sleep until returning home Sunday night.

Keep it longer. C

Even if a vendor has to stay Saturday night after packing up, I'd think it would still be preferable to staying open Sunday. It allows them to get an early start travelling home Sunday if they desire.

The problem is how do you secure the vendor hall on a Saturday night when folks are loading out? Unless the dealer hall would close earlier, I know I would be packing and loading for hours. I do not relish a 9.5 hour day of selling followed by a 2-3 hour load out. Waiting until Sunday morning means someone would have to guarantee security for the booths not be packed up that night. Sounds like a lot of liability for HMGS…….

Agree with Extra Crispy. Shorter would be disastrous.

It is not really comparable – the US vs the UK from a geographic point of view.

In the USA, we can drive 4 hours without blinking an eye.

In the UK, I would guess based upon comments of friends of mine there that 4 hours is quite a journey.

Surely the issue here is not whether people like the four day format, but how to reinvigorate the traders to a point where they want to attend. Taking to UK traders, shows like Salute mean a big pay day for them. Looking at comments from US traders this is not the case for them with Cons. Without a healthy base of traders the hobby won't grow, falling attendance at Cons seems to suggest that it is actually in decline now as opposed to growing. How do we address that?

I prefer longer conventions -- travel time to gaming time ratio factor.

In regards to vendor business issues at conventions, it's a supply and demand matter. Unless the vendor has something I'm looking for or want, my money will remain in my purse.

All of my miniatures come from 1 of the UK maker at this point. I would love to see American companies make 28mm dark age and medieval figures that are as lovely. Until then, most of my purchases are on-line.

@BobGrognard
I tend to agree – It seems to me that Richard's point is that the shorter convention means less overhead for the UK traders, and therefore the greater profit and sustainability. More profit means more reinvestment in product lines.
Whilst the issue for the US traders is that due to the inherent travel distances, it only makes sense for them to attend for multiple days, which ultimately eats into their profits.

At the shorter UK shows, punters attend primarily to shop, and possibly join a party game, but that isn't the priority.

Whereas, at the multi-day US conventions, punters attending for more than a day trip, in my opinion, are there primarily to game, shopping being less of a priority, and something than can be squeezed in between games. It's a no win for the dealers, who have to hang around for three or four days essentially at the whim of the punters.

One thing that some of you are forgetting –

In the USA, historical conventions usually have a large gaming component. So the two draws are gaming and buying stuff from traders.

In the UK, the shows are primarily traders with some demo games (minor component)

This thread has made me think about something – the UK appears to have a more vibrant manufacturing scene than the US for historical miniatures. Certainly there seem to be more orders placed by Americans in the UK than British in the US. Part of this may well be some of Richard's points and also the fact that people regularly see one another at shows, so there seems to be more of a community of manufacturers. Also, if a demo or participation game catches my eye, then at most of the shows I attend, I can usually pick up some figures or rules, due to the range of traders.

Is the fact that the US is so vast always going to make it difficult to establish a similar broad range and also see a continued decline in the big conventions, even as the UK show scene seems healthy? Also, if product – rules and miniatures, aren't making it to the UK, they're far less likely to figure in magazines. As an example, The Sword and the Flame, which I've only ever seen discussed on TMP.