"A Mexican invasion of the US in 1917" Topic

In 1917 the German government proposed a military alliance with Mexico.

bbc.co.uk/guides/zp2q7ty

I've always assumed this was impractical because of the decade of Civil War in Mexico (1910-1920)

Any thoughts on this as either a practical war or one to game?

Looks like Tango, my dear cousin, beat me to it, even if the discussion didn't go far:

TMP link

There were small invasions of the US by Mexican forces. They would be termed raids I suppose but still it is a large border.

Locally we have done the great war in Mexico. In particular this was done following the Harry turtledove scenario of the south winning the Civil War and what followed. Thus we have the United States with Germany versus Mexico with England and France. But the principles would be the same with the historical great war. Mexico declares war on US, or not, and tries to seize border areas. US counterattacks with some British troops landing to assist, and Germans landing from nearby submarines. Maybe even the Japanese get involved.

No need to worry about the actual historical facts if this makes a great "what if" game :-)
link

I don't think that Mexico would have stood much of a chance. A Mexico invasion would have seen a huge national response inside the US, even more so in Texas, that would have quickly seen Us forces and irregulars stopping the attack.
After years of Civil War Mexico was in no condition to challenge the US.

That site certainy paints a very British sight of the events.

The number of Mexican soldiers under federal control was relatively small; I don't think anyone outside of Mexico needed to worry about the Mexican army. It's a good what-if, especially if you throw in some Central American nations to form an alliance with Mexico, the Germans can use Mexico as a staging area, and I'd be inclined to have the Mexican Front as part of a Second American Civil War.

> the Germans can use Mexico as a staging area

Unlikely, as the offer of alliance would only activate on an US entry into the war, and with UK and US control of the Atlantik. Except for some few submarines, nothing much could reach Mexiko.

Robert Conroy's 1921: America's Great War has a pretty good basis for a limited campaign.

So, A Mexican Army with some German help (sneaking in by submarines) is going to send and supply a Mexican Army as it advances through a desert (with only limited railroad connections to assist). It will then advance into a nation with the largest railroad network in the world (and the largest steel production) and take parts of the country away. Within weeks (maybe days) every state militia (not counting the volunteer regiments) in the US would be sending units to repulse the invasion.

Watch out Germany, Lichtenstein may invade you :>

@OP: I guess it depends whether you want to game a relatively real scenario, or if you want to go into alternative history and game a what-if scenario. I don't think there is much there for a scenario based on real life events. I think there is a lot there for an alternative history spin.

There were small invasions of the US by Mexican forces. They would be termed raids I suppose but still it is a large border.

Some sort of obstacle to keep them out might be considered. A wall, perhaps?

Thanks for remember that my dear cousin!. (smile)

Amicalement
Armand

The plan had to be dreamed up by someone who didn't know the area. A logistics train from Mexico would have to travel hundreds of miles through desolate parts of Mexico and the Southwest. The oil at that time was in east Texas, so the goal of the expedition would be…..? The minor cities of Houston, Dallas, Los Angeles? Capture San Antonio for no reason I can dream up? A completely unrealistic drive on St Loiuis or Chicago? The only thing that makes sense is to try and capture New Orleans or cut off the Mississippi, and I can't see success there.

Maybe the purpose was just to tie up troops, and also have the citizens put pressure on Washington to tie up even more troops in the South West. Every soldier in the SW was one that wasn't getting sent to France.

"Maybe the purpose was just to tie up troops, and also have the citizens put pressure on Washington to tie up even more troops in the South West. Every soldier in the SW was one that wasn't getting sent to France."

Why would Mexico care how many US troops went to Europe?

What's in it for Mexico?

Yes,think of the troops Villa tied up,from that one little raid.
Reading The Zimmerman Telegram had me envisioning a TSATF scenario. There were also rumors of a Japanese invasion,exploited by William Randolph Hearst,who produced a serial about it.

The Pershing Expedition into Mexico tied up 10,000 troops. The US mobilized 4 MILLION for WWI.

I suspect if we had gone to war with Mexico and Germany, state militias would have been organized to fight the Mexicans and would have had little impact on troops to fight in Europe. It might have extended the length of the war by a few months at best.

Mike Bunkermeister Creek
Bunker Talk blog

Probably what was in it for Mexico was some type of treaty recompence to restore national honor.

I would consider a Mexican and German invasion of the American SW a very different animal than the Pershing Expedition.

The one strategic advantage of the USA was that it never shared a border with another major power with an adequate population, industrial capacity and the will to resort to arms to make others do their bidding as was the situation in Europe.

If you were used to looking for neighbours to ally with when going to war with a certain country, your only option is Mexico. (Although finding an AR where Canada would ally with Germany would be quite interesting)

Now the Germans were under no illusion that Mexico could win any war with the US, even with German support, but they did hope that creating a conflict between the US and Mexico might slow down the US buildup in Europe and give the Germans a few months worth of breathing space.

One might wonder what would happen if the Germans managed to send some troops under the command of someone like Von Lettow-Vorbeck …

I would not have regarded the Mexican government stable enough to conduct a war against the USA or any other country.
The Central American countries were still involved in conflicts between the Liberals and Conservatives which would draw Mexican interest south.

Given that during the Pershing expedition there were two fights with Mexican Federal troops and the Mexicans won both times, I think if you did just small skirmish level fighting between the two countries it could make for some interesting games.

That was my thought. Some German officers as "advisors",a Sea Battalion with Maxims,maybe some Japanese?

BTW,is the Hearst serial I mentioned above ("Patria") considered a "lost film"? I could only find one clip on line.

The Japanese were against the Germans.

Heavens! You mean that would be "ahistorical"?

Well,we can't have that.

>Although finding an AR where Canada would ally with Germany would be quite interesting

The only AR that leaves European powers with allies on both sides of the deal is a successfull secession. That one would have changed the course of all teh worlds history pretty fast.
Well, Turtledove wrote ten volumes on this AR…

"Although finding an AR where Canada would ally with Germany would be quite interesting…"

Agree!

Amicalement
Armand

Doesn't matter cuz it was a ruse put forth by the Brits to trick the US into joining on their side ;)