"ACW artillery - firing over soldiers?" Topic

> Never with canister or grape under any circumstances.
> Dangerous with time-fuzed ammunition due to risk of prematures (especially true with Confederate ammunition).
> OK with solid shot and percussion-fuzed shells, assuming fire from a higher elevation and a few hundred yards in rear (bits of sabot and scraps of iron strapping were problems).

B

Nobody liked it, least of all the infantry but the artillery didn't like infantry posted directly to their front either, as it drew fire which often overshot into them.

The infantry hated it as they caught short falls in counter battery fire and from their own sides out going fire as well.

Things got so bad at Gettysburg a Union officer stormed into a battery, pistol in hand, and threatened to shoot crew members if they didn't stop firing at Confederate batteries over the heads of his regiment!

That's basically what I've read as well – infantry didn't like artillery to shoot over their heads. But it could be done in an emergency, sort of like "danger close" artillery fire in today's parlance.

Jim

The only time I know my great grandfather's regiment broke was at Chickamagua. His brigade was sent to stop Helm's and other rebel forces. Friendly artillery fired in support. Most of it landed on Union troops. Great Grandpa and the rest of the brigade broke. H

I think Johnny Reb's right in that no one really worried too much about shell or solid shot and friendly skirmishers. Skirmish lines were just too thin. Other than that, I'm with the consensus: grape and canister weren't done. Others were, sometimes, but no one liked it, and the uncertain Confederate fuses were a particular problem.

Another factor is the danger from sabots. They went downrange, though not anywhere near as far as the main projectiles. But nobody was happy about getting hit with them from behind.

I never allow it in my games. You have to have a clear field of fire at least as wide as the battery (so no shooting "between" infantry units through that 1" gap over there. The one behind the wall, and obscured partially by that hedge…

Ferd, sounds like Grose's brigade, am I right?

Also Chickamagua, on the first day. Van Cleve's division was hit with friendly artillery as well when the cannon posted in Brotherton Field decided to shoot into the woods to their front to "help" the infantry.

If I remember right, some of the infantry below East Cemetery Hill were killed by sabots as the artillery was firing over their heads.

At Fredericksburg the Confederate artillery positioned on Marye's Hill, Willis Hill and Lee's Hill fired over their own troops at advancing Federal forces.

Eyewitness accounts of the infantry describe not only the use of "shot and shell", but of "grape and canister" as well with great effect.

If you have been to Fredericksburg you can see that there is a pretty good field of fire over the sunken road from Marye's Heights to make this possible.

Not sure with what is written in a set of game rules has to do with trying to find out historical facts.

Kim

If the piece fired a fixed round (12#, 6#, generally smooth bores not rifles) the ball was held onto the powder by a wooden sabot and metal banding. Those would go a good distance in front of the firing piece before separating from the ball. Skirmish line maybe play the odds but not sure about a firing line.

Reading an 1860's manual for artillery units in the ACW. IT clearly listed safety ranges for units to their front and sides when firing different types of ammunition. If I remember right, it was a 100 yards and further in most cases.

At one reenactment my battalion was lying down about 30 yards in front of a line on Union guns firing over our heads. OMG! My ears are still ringing!

Two other examples from major battles:

At Murfreesboro, Jan 2nd, Mendenhall massed his artillery of 57 guns posted on the high ridge above Mcfadden Ford on Stones River. To his front, east of Stones River, was positioned Beatty's Division holding a hill. When Breckenridge's confederate troops moved forward to attack this position, the guns fired over these federal troops with great effect.

When Breckenridge's attack drove off the brigades of Beatty's division towards the river, Union artillery fired over the retreating troops at the confederate troops now occupying the hill east of the river.

Beatty's men withdrew through Negley's troops posted in reserve at the foot of the bluff below the guns and met Breckenridge head on with support from the guns to break up the attack with devastating loss. Negley's men counter attacked across the river driving the confederates from the field.

At Gettysburg, 2nd day, the Union XII Corp posted several batteries on Cemetery Hill. When Early attacked late in the day, these guns fired at the advancing confederate brigades of Hays and Avery over the heads of the union brigades of Harris and Von Gilsa, who were holding a low stone wall along Brickyard Lane below the guns.

The union troops could not hold the position and were driven back towards the guns on the hill. Union artillery opened up with canister, hitting both the advancing rebels and fleeing yanks alike. The confederates would briefly capture the guns, only to be driven back by federal reserves when Rodes' Division failed to support Hay's attack as planned.

Clearly, allowing for artillery to fire over the heads of friendly troops is necessary in order to recreate battles as they were historically fought.

Kim

Aye, there's the rub. A gamer finds an example of a very rare or unusual circumstance, and wants to recreate it. Next thing you know firing over your own troops is as common as dirt – in fact it would be a common tactic I'd guess. I *might* allow it in very specific circumstances but that would be a "special scenario rule" for Fredericksburg (though I can't imagine enjoying playing that battle).

Same can be said for most rules. What is musket range? There are examples of troops opening up at over 500 yards. What they hoped to do I don't know. Maybe just shooting off a round or two was good for morale. Doesn't mean I'll let my troops fire at that range.

At one reenactment my battalion was lying down about 30 yards in front of a line on Union guns firing over our heads. OMG! My ears are still ringing!

Having been at the firing end, we don't like doing it re-enactments because although there is no shot, there is still the blast wave and the foil used to rap the powder.

Fredericksburg (though I can't imagine enjoying playing that battle).

Might be ok if nobody steps on Meade's leash.

Kim- "Clearly, allowing for artillery to fire over the heads of friendly troops is necessary in order to recreate battles as they were historically fought."
Crispy- "A gamer finds an example of a very rare or unusual circumstance, and wants to recreate it."

I'm late to the discussion, but still want to contribute my 2 cents-

Even though I have done some reading on the ACW, I have no idea of what was actually done on the battlefield. But I DO know that friendly Infantry posted in-front of guns on heights is a very common occurrence in the published scenarios depicting those battles. Even in JRIII (my favorite) the rules almost prevent Arty firing from positions they were actually in, so there is a need for a "house-rule" to allow those guns to fire from where they were placed.
My point is that it was not such a rare occurrence.

At Antietam the Reb guns fired over their men in the field just south of the Cornfield. They also fired over their own men in the West Woods. Lots of casualties from friendly fire. Woodruff's guns fired through the 125th Pa in the Smoketown Road because the Rebs were right behind them and the Pennsylvanians "were only volunteers". Such incidents occurred all to often

+1 to What 138th said about reenacting with artillery; and that's just with small powder charges and no projectile(s). Heck, it gets hairy when you are down on the ground between the lines and the opposing infantry doesn't elevate sufficiently. You can feel the burning powder, and volley fire has a solid kick of a shockwave.

Whad Blutarski said

Ball and shell,, yes.
Anything else, hell no.

Give the supporting troops 100 yards+ of prone space and ~100 foot vertical of separation to be clear of the shock wave.

Off you go.

Don't expect the infantry to be blowing you kisses afterwards. It is not what you really want to do.

Please remember that they century long way of firing round shot at enemy was the following. Level the barrel with the ground. (the bore was then a few degrees above the plane of the earth) Fire round shot which would not ever go above heard height and would bounce around between head height and shoe top for the next zero to 250 yards)?) (if the ground was flat) and liquify any soldiers it intersected. At short ranges you would use a number of smaller balls, – they would kill your friendly troops if they were in the way. At longer ranges, you would fire higher, miss the friendlies but the higher arc might miss bouncing thu the enemy and would pass thu the enemy soldier height during a smaller amount of its path of flight. Again, expect the infantry to not be pleased.