"Why you have the Stormcast Eternals all wrong" Topic

I wanted to post this as a response to the general overall reaction that long-time Warhammer gamers had to the release of AOS and the fairly universal hatred and loathing of the aesthetics of the new AOS miniatures, particularly the Stormcast Eternals.

We all now know that on Youtube and other gaming channels they were quickly dubbed "Sigmarines" by people like Anthony of Sustainable Center as well as many others. The name stuck, and of course what followed was an almost instant comparison to none other than Warhammer 40k. The immediate consensus was that Games Workshop was making Warhammer fantasy more like 40k to both dumb it down and to bring in ten-year olds into the hobby and to get kids to buy into fantasy.

I will simply explain here why nearly the entire Warhammer gaming community got it completely wrong, and in fact also started an outright lie which has now become an imbedded "fact" in gamers' minds thanks to the internet. Thanks to channels like Sustainable Center and others on Youtube, this misinformation about GW's intentions and what they were basing the Stormcast Eternals on has been lost and is now replaced by the bandwagon anti-GW rants that assume GW was attemtping to "40kize" fantasy. Which they did NOT.

What amazes me about this, is that in an age where we have access to more information at almost instantaneous speeds, that we also live in a time of the worst misinformation and miscommunication then we have ever had in our history. Attention spans are blunted down to the point of barely functioning. One or two well-placed catch-phrases or opinions and it becomes fact.

So here is why you have the Stormcast Eternals completely wrong. Now, I'm not saying you have to LIKE them or like the new aesthetic that GW has chosen for fantasy. That's not the point of this. You can like or not like them, which is fine. My point of this is that you need to understand the CONTEXT under which they were designed and rid yourselves of the knee-jerk reaction cra* that forms many of our opinions and positions that we end up taking on a particular topic.

The designers of the Stormcasts at GW based the models on two heroic aesthetics: Historical gladiators/fantasy gladiators, and historical Greek Hoplites.

Think I'm wrong? You think that these guys are nothing more than Space Marines in golden armor with swords? Nope. Not only was that not the focus of GW's design, it was actually the opposite. They were harking BACK to history and tapping into ancient heroism and its iconic images.

AND, in a rather sweet and ironic twist to all this – if you look at the lore of Warhammer, you will discover that it was the SPACE MARINE CHAPTERS THAT MODELED THEIR ARMOR IN THE LIKENESS OF ANCIENT SIGMAR. That means that in the timeline, the chosen armor of the 40k Space Marines is BASED ON the armor of the Stormcast Eternals, NOT the other way around.

If you still think I'm wrong, just go through these photos and tell me if the GW designers are just blowing smoke at gamers to sell to ten-year olds:

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…so…you still think that GW's design of the Stormcast Eternals was nothing but a cheap ploy to make them more like 40k Space Marines? Sorry, but it wasn't.

…and yet the prevailing attitude among many veteran Warhammer players is that the Stormcasts are nothing but a cheap GW ploy based on THIS?:

Really?

You can thank irresponsible channels like Sustainable Center and all the rumor mills for spreading the anti-GW poison and absolute zero-actual factual information based on nothing but their own personal anger and feelings towards Age of Sigmar as a game and GW as a company.

Yes, you might be able to tell that this topic has me more than a little upset and fired up. You would be correct.

I do not respect misinformation, particularly when it is spread by people who have thousands of subscribers to their channels. They are essentially journalists of a sort at that point, and if they provide so-called "information" about a company's motives and operations, which turns out to be nothing more than their own hyperbole? Yes, I have a problem with that. Because you have thousands of people who are trusting you and taking what you say for face value. And the majority of those people are NOT going to do their own fact-checking or research. They'll simply agree because they like the personality of the person delivering the "information". That does not fly and it should not be tolerated.

If a channel wants to say they don't like the aesthetics of the Stormcast Eternals, that's fine. But you had better get your facts straight before you assign your own PERSONAL history to the miniatures as if you had some magical crystal ball that allowed you to look into the design studios of Games Workshop as they develop new products.

Feel free to discuss.

The air outside is fresh. There are walks to be taken.

They still suck though

"That means that in the timeline, the chosen armor of the 40k Space Marines is BASED ON the armor of the Stormcast Eternals, NOT the other way around."

Riiight…

That means the armour of the Star Wars stormtroopers was based on the armour of the clone troopers, and not the other way round.

Makes sense.

Sorry, if you think the design aesthetic was NOT chosen specifically as a call out to the classic Space Marine design then I think you're burying your head in the sand. Yes; they take design queues from history; mostly the same sort of design queues the Space Marines used. No, they aren't exact copies, GW is not *that* dumb. But the Space Marines are far and away the most popular 40K faction (I've seen estimates that place them at like 25% of TOTAL 40K sales) and to think that GW would *not* want to replicate that success with a faction of similar aesthetic, background and gameplay is stretching credibility a little too far.

-Will

They look like they are big dudes in slightly exaggerated full-plate armour.

and this:

If you wanted big armoured guys I don't know how you would do them much different from how the Stormcast look.

I don't think that they are a "call out to the classic Space Marine design."

I think that both designs are based on the same thing. Space marines are basically full plate armoured knights in space.

These are giant full plate armoured knights.

Of course there are going to be similarities.

I think they look really cool.

Really, I never saw much similarity between the Stormcast guys and Space Marines. I managed to dislike them and Age of Sigmar entirely on their own merits. At the same time I hope the whole AoS thing is wildly successful for GW and pulls them out of their slow decline.

If you wanted big armoured guys I don't know how you would do them much different from how the Stormcast look.

What are you talking about? GW itself has had plenty of big armored guys in their old Warhammer line that didn't bear a quarter of resemblance to Space Marines that the Stormcast do. As I said, they aren't an exact copy of the Space Marines; GW isn't dumb. But the fact that GW is clearly trying to capture the Space Marine lighting in the Age of Sigmar bottle is really, really obvious from the way the Stormcast faction is designed. Don't even look at the models, just read the fluff!

-Will

Sigmarines – if the name fits.

They are nothing like Ancient Greek hoplites in appearance, panoply, or fighting style. They're more like…Space Marines. Plus, if you remember your Talisman, there is a bolt pistol as an artifact, possibly placing the entire Warhammer world in some distant 40k world or 50k future. Finally, this is a business. Space Marines sell. Kids buy. Give the kids a, "new and exciting space marine" option, they will buy. I'm going to bed.

'cue'

Not enough hate here for TMP
Needs maw skullz.

I like this guy. He's funny.

Who's the grumpiest little pixie in the magic forest?

I was looking at the third pic in the OP. The one with the guy holding his helmet. His head is way to big to fit that helmet – unless it is some sort of Sigmarite Tardis like helmet – bigger on the inside than it looks.

Plus, if you remember your Talisman, there is a bolt pistol as an artifact, possibly placing the entire Warhammer world in some distant 40k world or 50k future.

Oh good point. I had forgotten that bit of trivia. That would put the OP's chronology totally about face.

Well, that was . . . something.

Also note, many of your. . . picures of helmets. . . were Turko-Mongol helmets, so not Romans or Greeks.

Also of note, Roman and Greek imagery is very heavy in the Adeptus Astartes, particularly the Blood Angels, Imperial Fists and the justifiably loathed and despised Ultramarines.

So, after blowing up the Olrd World and moving the setting to space islands, GW adds a new faction that are functionally identical to the Blood Angels, Ultramarines and Imperial Fists, gives them deep strike rules and giant pauldrons. . . . . .

So people are justified in drawing conclusions based on evidence and context.

Yeah, in the WHFB universe, Bolt weapons were rare artifacts used by the Amazon warriors of Lustria.
In the fluff the Amazons were a kind of vassal faction to the Slann, (at the time, a standalone army in their own right, rather than figureheads for the lizardmen) who had all kinds of space/dimensional travel credentials.

Yes, there's plenty of evidence that the Warhammer world is the future of the 40k setting, not the past. :)

And the Stormcast were always intended to be, always are and always will be Sigmarines. :)

And there's NOTHING wrong with that. But there's also no point in denying it.

-Will

I offer the idea that there was little in the look of most of the GW fantasy lines that could be protected with an ironclad copyright. Their elves, knights, dwarves and Imperials were all derivatives of mainstream fantasy. It's hard to argue in court about your intellectual property when your products look just like the art in the D&D books, The Dragon magazine, or just about any other fantasy line from the 1970's and 1980's. Going in a new direction GW has created something solely theirs that gives them an IP they can defend in court.

Objection! The previous post contains both common sense and a real-world rationale consistent with established corporate precedent.

I move it be stricken from the record!

In the end it doesn't matter one whit what those awful models are based on. GW took a chance to revamp the Warhammer world which utterly ruined It and that's that.

Apart from Pedrobear's lucid appreciation and Wminsing's (and LaserGrenadier's, and Norman D Landings')clever comments.

All that effort by the OP to make it appear that this:

And that this design:

has not been the base for this one:

All in all, not really necessary. While Stormcast are most obviously based on space marines, they are pretty designs on their own.

And talking about disinformation, saying that "GW based the models on two heroic aesthetics: Historical gladiators/fantasy gladiators, and historical Greek Hoplites"… Then putting images of a Secutor helmet, Turkish-Mongol-Russian helmets alongside copies of "300" helmets, Corinthian and Sutton Hoo derivatives, and a 16th century (German?) helmet!. It looks lame. Don't know where has the OP found such information or if it's been product of (wind and uninformed, obviously uneducated) speculation. No hint of gladiators or hoplites can be found in Stormcast, none absolutely.

The Warhammer world was set in the 40K universe; it was broken warp portals which spilled warp in the world, kind of like this:

I remember old chaos minis equipped with bolters or power armour! Look at the Khorne mini with autopistol here:

or this Tzeentch champion clad in space marine alike armour:

What I can't understand is the apparently urging need to make AoS something other than a try to sell a product. Not thant much (or any) original, just a rebranding. All those fantasy ranges have been kept under their particular tags, and some new things incorporated with those "flame" dwarves and the "Sigmarines". They look good, I think so, but they are Space Marines in fantasy.

So… can I just hate them based on their aesthetics? Is that ok?

Actually the Stormcast Eternals give me strong vibes of Chronopia humans

same blocky feel

They have their charm, but are by my aesthetic ugly miniatures.

Also considering how you are "not" a member of the GW design team, all you say is simple suppositions no more or less valid than all other suppositions. I am going with my evoking Adrian Smith Chronopia supposition :p

I offer the idea that there was little in the look of most of the GW fantasy lines that could be protected with an ironclad copyright. Their elves, knights, dwarves and Imperials were all derivatives of mainstream fantasy. It's hard to argue in court about your intellectual property when your products look just like the art in the D&D books, The Dragon magazine, or just about any other fantasy line from the 1970's and 1980's. Going in a new direction GW has created something solely theirs that gives them an IP they can defend in court.

Bingo!

Yup Chronopia defeated Warhammer. There. I went there.

…and yet the prevailing attitude among many veteran Warhammer players is that the Stormcasts are nothing but a cheap GW ploy based on THIS?:

Really

Yes really, they are nothing but Space Marines without the guns.

Going in a new direction GW has created something solely theirs that gives them an IP they can defend in court.

Yes I can agree with that since they got their asses handed to them in that court case.

Could be a reason why they killed off WFB as well.

But Stormcast Eternals are nothing but Ultramarines.

Oh and their yearly report will be out soon.

"Who's the grumpiest little pixie in the magic forest?"

Wins.

***

Nerd Core Alert: Game Fluff Apologetics

Just back from a walk. As for aesthetic trails, look at Italian Renaissance art, particularly paintings of the warrior angels such as St Michael, in that you might find the origin of the Stormcast Eternals.

"GW itself has had plenty of big armored guys in their old Warhammer line that didn't bear a quarter of resemblance to Space Marines that the Stormcast do."

GW have big armoured chaos guys that look like Chaos space marines. The look has always been similar and it is based on how they do medieval looking armour.

The armoured Empire and Brettonian guys didn't look as much like them because they weren't, until the very most recent editions, trying to exaggerate it as much. A lot of the Empire and Brettonians stuff could be used straight up as historical figures.

Not so with Chaos. The look for fantasy and 40K has always had a lot of similarities. I don't think this is some new trend, this is just how GW does heavily exaggerated full plate armour whether space or not.

And as KTravlos points out, they aren't the only ones doing it in a similar manner.

or this Tzeentch champion clad in space marine alike armour

That's actually a 40K chaos marine, meant to ride a Disc of Tzeench. Like the other three Power's chaos steeds, they same mounts were sold with either Warhammer or 40K riders.

Look! GW just released 40K figures based on Stormcast Eternals!

huh…I hadn't considered the Chronopia angle. Sure, yeah, they look a bit like that. But no Chronopia was cool so there's clearly no relationship there.

What court case did they lose?
M

@Pictors Studio- Look, I'm not arguing that GW definitely has an exaggerated armor style in many of it's ranges. They have also now applied this style to their new 'good' human faction, in a clear attempt to emulate the same success the Space Marines have enjoyed. Look at the models, read the rules, read the fluff; they ARE a fantasy riff on Space Marines. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, nothing at all. But sitting here and denying the link when it's clear for all to see and probably wouldn't even be denied by GW if pressed seems pretty silly.

-Will

Baranovich, you will never convince TMP at large of anything positive about GW. They prefer to live in their dimly light sheds painting tin flats with glossy humbrol paints.

They can state their case to me- how they've really, truly changed and found Sigmar- at their next parole hearing. Sometime in 2022.

And don't forget-

'…basing on cut-up cereal boxes, flocked with sawdust dyed a green not found in nature'.

What court case did they lose?

The Chapterhouse Lawsuit.

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Sure GW got $25,000 USD from Chapterhouse but they spent far more than that in bring the lawsuit.

But GW lost and lost big time, which is why they have been renaming nearly everything that they make since they need the ability to trademark their stuff.

They even threaten to Sue the Writer of "Spot the Space Marine" and told Amazon not to sell it.

link

They have been a IP Bully for years and the Chapterhouse Lawsuit brought that to an end.

Now you take the guy on the right in the picture that Pedrobear posted and take away his pistol and give him a shield and you got a…

Stormcast Eternal

Baranovich, you will never convince TMP at large of anything positive about GW.

It's not even positive or negative, it's just whether the Stormcast Eternals are an attempt to replicate the major commercial success of Space Marines into the new Warhammer setting. And the Stormcast really, really, really obviously are. I'm fairly astounded that this could even be considered controversial.

-Will

At one time I like GW's figure line and purchased lots of Brets, Empire, Elves etc. I even bought lots of Imperial Guard.

So I'm not anti-GW just anti-bad figure design.

Age of Silly stuff does NOT look like plate armor as depicted (see early GW figures) but is grossly over scale and obviously imoblie. The helms shown are either ancient or largely ceremonial.

Its just bad art direction – bloated badly proportioned and out of genre.

Lets hope for a Warhammer reboot in few years.

TomT

Lets hope for a Warhammer reboot in few years.

I do not see that happening.

They just could not keep up with all of the armies that they created for it.

Empire
Bretonnia
Dwarves
Chaos Dwarves
High Elves
Wood Elves
Dark Elves
Lizardmen
Warriors of Chaos
Demons of Chaos
Beastmen
Orcs & Goblins
Skaven
Vampire Counts
Tomb Kings
Orge Kingdoms

16 Armies because they got greedy and decided to break apart certain Armies into more, like the Warriors of Chaos, Demons of Chaos & Beastmen use to be just Chaos.

But they saw a chance to make more money by breaking them into three armies. The same goes the Undead and High & Wood Elf armies.

With a rephrasing of the rules every four years they could never complete all of the books before the next rephrasing of the rules.

So armies never got update and fell by the way side because they just could not win games in the new Edition.

Plus with every new army book they would have to recreate nearly all of that armies units. That costs a lot of money in designing new miniatures and molds.

So no WFB is dead for good and GW will never bring it back.

Baranovich, I have to disagree with you about the ol' Stormcast, buddy. GW are not complete fools, and they know Space Marines are very popular. It doesn't matter if Marine armor was originally based on Renaissance armor, or that Space Marine Chapters are based on medieval knightly orders, what matters is that folks like Marines NOW. And a new faction that reminds them of Marines will sell. And there's nothing wrong with that. The Stormcast are really cool, with great sculpts (that are waaaay better than Marine sculpts) and great background fluff that is vaguely reminiscent of Space Marine fluff (the knightly orders angle again).

A more useful argument defending the Stormcasts is that they are extreme and outrageous because they are supposed to be! Age of Sigmar is like adult Saturday Morning Cartoon awesomeness! And these guys are the poster boys of that badass cartoon!

The folks that were super into the fantasy 16th/17th century design aesthetic of Warhammer Fantasy are not necessarily going to like the change in art and story direction taken with AoS, and that's fine. The problem is some of those folks can't just be happy with the many hundreds of sculpts and 30 years of history provided by GW of the Old World et al, they for some reason feel the need to tear down what came after it.

That's what really bugs me personally. I have a huge Dogs of War army, based for Warhammer Fantasy, and I'm not crying about it on an online forum. I'll be using it for Kings of War. But now thanks to how fun AoS is, I've recently purchased an undead army, a chaos army, a Stormcast army, and a Sylvaneth army, all for use in AoS. I used to be a cranky gamer dude who poo-pooed GW, but I actually tried AoS, and it turns out it's really fun!

AoS is a pretty cool game and I like the concise rules. The background story is pretty cool and they are in the process of making everything more unique in order to have better control of their own IP (IMO).

What it is not, is WHFB and the Old World. This has caused a lot of angst in the WHFB community.

It is not 40k either. Big guys in armor are big guys in armor. However, the Stormcast Eternals' penchant for lightning strikes (literally) by an elite force gives them a very similar theme to Space Marines.

I don't think the OP should have even bothered with this post on this site, because TMP is basically a "Hate GW" site and the reaction is predictable. Were you expecting to reach anyone with an open mind about GW on here?

I don't know many kids who even play 40k. Most of our 40k group is made up of adults with jobs so they can afford the miniatures. The "justifiably despised" (LOL) Ultramarines are a popular army played by many adult gamers. To me, plate armor looks like plate armor and powered armor looks like powered armor. BUT they both cover the wearers entire body in plates !!!!! Whoohoo they must be the same thing !!!! :P I never understood gamers who get so invested in hating on other peoples fun.

I have played AoS and I like it, I think its a good game. I have repurposed my WHFB miniatures into Kings of War armies.

I was not happy with the demise of The Old World. And AoS was a no-go due to the high cost of the thing. However I did buy it and whilst I'm stil in process of building the pieces, I will be trying out the game itself soon. I also have Dragon Rampant and will be giving it a go too. Both may scratch the fantasy wargame itch for me and all my fantasy figures will find a new home rules wise, either way. Secondly I agree with the statement HUBcommish made- they are definitely the Saturday Morning Cartoon poster boys of awesomeness. Sorry for the misquote, but you get it.

:)

Gattamalata you should have opened with that last pic and saved a lot of debate ;)

WHat the, so this post is basically, "all your opinions are wrong, my opinion is right, spit" yeah, OK, they are clearly based on space marines, moving along.

Ah, yes the great debate over toys. Meanwhile, starving kids in war torn where ever wait for the next release of GW kit.