"Prussian Reserve Infantry 1813" Topic

Does any one know if the Reserve infantry Regiments carried standards in 1813?
What they looked like? Staff colors?
Thanks

Brian

If I'm reading this correctly, they were not issued colors until 1815, after Waterloo:

link

Mark "Extra Crispy" Severin

Owner, Manager, Janitor ScaleCreep.com

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I gave my Reserve Regiments "unofficial" colours, the flag of Silesia for units from Silesia and the landwher cross flags for the West Prussians. I have no evidence for this but they do look nice...

Robert Mantle's booklet published by the Napoleonic Association confirms that no official colours were carried but units did have their own versions of the iron cross design in black and white. It is probable that the regiments which were regularised did not receive regular colours until after the 1815 campaign.

I've also read that the Reserve regiments didn't have colours.
For me this always raises the question of how they coped.
Colours were used to rally troops & provide an easily recognisable position to draw them up.
It is difficult to think that some colonel's wife didn't embroider something unofficial Or some table cloth wasn't hung on a pole simply to allow the unit to be more efficient.

Give them colours ! - check out the GMB range in both 15mm and 25mm. There are several different versions of the Cross, as well as Provincial ones. The Brandenburg double headed eagle in red on a white field just looks super.

G'day, Brian.

The short answer is "No", mate.

But....

When the reserve battalions were mobilised in 1813, some may have been given laid-up Retirierfahnen of their Stamm (parent) Regiments. There's no documented sources on which units, if any, were given colours, however, just mention in various histories and memoirs (3rd (Reserve) Battalion Pommeranian Regiment is one that gets mentioned a bit). When they were formed into Reserve Infantry Regiments, they were ordered to return the colours (the fact that order was given would indicate at least some units had them).

In October 1813 the order was again passed that only those battalions that had been correctly presented with colours could carry them (ie presented by the King, Queen or stand in). The order was specifically directed at the Landwehr and possibly the various freikorps. Any unit with the main armies caught carrying an unauthorised flag in November 1813 had it confiscated.

As to what flags they would have carried, I'm very dubious about them carrying landwehr type flags. These units all had a direct heritage from a line unit and would have carried one of that unit's flags, if they could get it, just to distinguish themselves from the landwehr ("We're nearly regulars, we are!"). With the reduction of colours per battalion in 1812, there were plenty spare for that task. So if they did carry colours, I think they'd have carried those, especially as the regimental inhaber (Colonel-in-Chief) was unlikely to be thrilled with one of "his" battalions carrying a bodgie flag. I haven't read the article mentioned by von Beck, unfortunately, as it may give me some new info. But I wouldn't be surprised if someone has either mistaken landwehr for RIR or just made a mistaken guess in ascribing the flags carried. Certainly they aren't mentioned in Feibig, Reihn or the General Staff sources I have.

But there's no reason why you can't use a bit of artistic lisence, is there? Issuing your RIR battalions with Retirierfahnen of their parent regiments would make them look good and also underscore where the unit originally came from. Alternatively, you could "issue their colours early", and give them the colours they were issued in 1816. These were all the same, the black cross on white as carried by 2nd Battalion, 3rd East Prussian Infantry Regiment.

Cheers.

Dal.

As RVB indicated, I have also seen evidence of colours during the 1813-14 era. Blue with a white iron cross being common among landwehr units.

Most Reserve battalions of 1815 came from units aborbed from other formations. Freikorps (Lutzow, Hellwig), captured units (Berg)and units such as the RGL (2 Rgts). They still carried their pre-absorbtion flags during the 1813-14 campaign.

Flags for Landwehr were prohibited in 1813 but the flag of batt. Sagan (3rd Batt, 1st Silisian, as I remember) survives to this day). An inscription on it suggests that it was carried through the the 1813 campaign.

Alan Pendlebury's Flags of the Napoleonic Wars site has an illustration of thie flag plus 8 notional flags for the LW.

I plan to use the generic iron cross for my reserve regiments but one of the parent regiments extras might not be too bad. If the powers that be in the field would let them carry home made flags I expect they would find a way to pey them aout of the armories.

I agree with Dal and issue my reserve battalions with flags of the same design as their stamm regiment, whether it is historical of not. After all, we're just playing a game and the troops really look better with a flag bravely flying in their midst!

Jim

The Reserve Regiments did not officially have any standards. They did not receive them until September-October 1815 when they were incorporated into the line.

There were a number of cases of unofficial flags being used in the Spring of 1813 when they were individual Reserve bns. By August 1813, all were forbidden.

I have been compiling a book on the Prussian for the last 5 years. I will post what I have on the Reserve Flags.

It would be interesting to consider upon another point, whether in your rules you would permit certain Reserve Bns to form skirmish order. Certainly there are a number of historical cases. Also 7 of them were formed from Reserve Fusilier Bns.

Do not forget the Freiwilligen Jager. The Prussian brigade of 1813 makes for a very effective force. Most list makers do not give the brigade enough commanders. There would be a Brigade Commander (Divisional) and command of the infantry would devolve to the commander of the senior regiment (i.e. the Oberst/OberstLt of IR1-12). The integrated cavalry is very effective in chasing off the oponents skirmishers and artillery if they get too close.

By 1813, over a third of the infantry could form in open order (i.e. the fusilier). In addition there was the third rank that could be used. This would have left the musketeers in two ranks.

Even Landwehr were deployed in open order. The use of lines had declined as columns in checker pattern were preferred even in defence. The open square as used by the British (of course copied from the C18th Prussian manuals) was no longer used. It was a closed column type square akin to the Austrian Masse. THis was very quick to form from column.

Advancier Columns were normally double zug formations (2 zugs to a company) and were modelled on the French 1790's regulations. Zug columns were also sused.

Stephen

If you are going to issue flags of the Stamm Regiment then you need to consider whose reserve Bn they were formed from. This is quite a complex story. This would mean different flags for the different bns within a Reserve Bn.

There is little evidence of the use of standards past August 1813.

Stephen

G'day, Gents.

Rudy, there weren't any Reserve units in 1815. In the March 1815 reorrganisation of the army, all the Reserve Infantry Regiments were placed in the line. However, if you mean theywere still wearing "reserve" uniforms, I agree. Even though my Prussians are based on 1813, I'd relly like to have the 28th done, in their old Berg uniforms. With, of course, the colours they were issued in 1816. ;-)

Jim, one reason Sagan's flag still exists is that it was returned and laid up in the local church, when the order to get rid of unofficial flags was made. Apparently there were a lot of other landwehr flags around, too, but over the years they've disappeared. Which is a pity.

Stephen, it's not fair to whet my appetite like that! :-)

May I ask (and I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm genuinely after the information) what sources mention the unofficial flags? I haven't read all of Feibig or Koeniglich Preussischen Fahnen und Standarten seit dem jahre 1807, mainly because my German is bad enough to make it a struggle. So I may have missed any references in there. Also, Alt only deals with the official fahnen carried, not any unofficial patterns. So, as a "flag nut", I'd be interested in a new source to explore.

BTW, if you haven't managed to get your hands on Feibig (Unsterbliche Treue), ...Fahnene und Standarten... or Redlin (Die Fahnen und Standarten der preussischen Feldregimenter 1807-1918), let me know and I'll send you photocopies (unfortunately my copy of Redlin is an incomplete photocopy itself).

Also, what did you think of Digby Smith's conclusions on the cavalry flags post 1808?

Cheers.

Dal.

PS

If you are going to issue flags of the Stamm Regiment then you need to consider whose reserve Bn they were formed from. This is quite a complex story. This would mean different flags for the different bns within a Reserve Bn.

That's part of the attraction, though. In 6 RIR you'd have colours of the 1st WP Inf (1st Battalion), 1st Silesian Inf (2nd Battalion) and 1st West Prussians again (3rd Battalion). Quite a colourful mix.

The main area of confusion, for me, concerns the Lithuanian reserve battalions. Who were their Srtammregiment? West Prussians? East Prussians? Leib/Brandenburg?

Cheers.

Dal.

Dal,

I'm fairly sure the Lithuanians were East Prussian.

The problem with allocating a Stamm Regiment flag would not so much be determining which regiment but rather which battalion. Using your example the 2nd Battalion is easy as the 1st Silesians had only one pattern of flag. But which flag for the West Prussians, the pattern carried by the I or II battalion of the stamm regiment. Also IIRC ther were initially 2 flags per battalion. This gives 2 'spares' for the reservists. Seems fairly simple I & II battalions of the reserve have the same flags as the Stamm regiment. But what about the regiments such as the Leib which raised about 5 reserve battalions. The more I explore this option the more confusing it gets. I think I'll stick to no flags for the reserve.

Dal, I am quite familiar with the Prussian Reserve reorganization, I have been building Prussian since 1977. Though they and the Freikorps and captured formation were brought into formal numbers, there was still a pecking order among the units and officers. (As one might expect.
Remember that the Berg were told to wear greatcoats to ensure little friendly fire confusion so proper use of castings for them would be in dull greatcoats rather than their white and lgt blue.

Still good info that you give.

The Lithuanians were formed in a around Konigsberg in East Prussia. They were certainly not like being referred to as West Prussians (Poles) or Brandenburgers.

They mostly formed the Fusilier Bn as designated in 1815 during the reorganisation.

The Prussian Army suffereed a great deal with regional predudice. The former Westphalian officers had to join the Landwehr or the Freiwillige Jager being that they were catholic and served the armies of Napoleon. This is one of the major reasons for there being larger than others Frewillige Jager contingents.

I think the Berg regts wore their white in the couple of days before Ligny and were told to wear the greatcoats because of _un_friendly fire - the officers stood out in regulation blue and were being singled out.

Swampster

Summerfield, do you have any idea what % of the Westphalian landwehr infantry and cavalry in 1815 were troops who formerly fought for Napoleon? I'm trying to figure out how veteran they would be and what the capabilities of the cavalry was.

G'day.

Nigel and Stephen, thanks for clearing that up. I thought they may have been East Prussian, but never had a definitive answer.

Rudy, no offence was intended. I had no idea how long you've been studying the Prussians. And I've seen reference to Reserve troops in Prussian lists, or been asked about them, for the 1815 campaign before. I was just trying to clarify a point. It's good to see yet another Prussian on the board, too. A couple more of us and we can stage a coup. :-)

Remember that the Berg were told to wear greatcoats to ensure little friendly fire confusion so proper use of castings for them would be in dull greatcoats rather than their white and lgt blue.

This one time I'd be prepared to bend history a bit, I think. Having the OR's in their old Berg uniforms (and there's a nice mix of them in the three battalions, as well), officers and musicians in their correct dress and with the regiment carrying the 1810 pattern colours should make an interesting spectacle.

Still good info that you give.

Thanks. But there's still so much to learn. That's why I'm waiting for Stephen to post his material. I know just how knowledgeable he is, from reading his posts on other boards such as the NSF.

Swampy, the officers stood out in regulation blue and were being singled out.

Given an opportunity like that, mate, can you think of any OR that could resist the temptation? It may not be his own pet hate he's aiming at, but at least it's an officer!

Cheers.

Dal.

Dear Huevans
Alas I do not have the numbers that were part of the Westphalian Landwehr but the Prussian Authorities were reluctant to employ catholic officers let alone formally part of the Westphalian Army. These officers found employ in the Westphalian Landwehr and Freiwillige Jager.

Certainly there was a significant proportion of former soldiers in the newly raised landwehr. This is shown by the average age and distribution no doubt.

The important part is the trust between the officers and the men. I need to have a look at my notes about whole squadrons that were incorpated in the Landwehr cavalry in late 1813-14. I think there were at least one instance of this.

Sorry that I cannot be more precise than that. A very interesting question that I have seen no answer or as yet.

Dear Dal
The officers in the newly incorpated units from Berg were wearing the new regulation uniform. The rank and file were wearing their original Berg white uniforms. It was after the action at Fleurus etc. after they had lost a number of officers that they were ordered to wear greatcoats. Interesting that they actually had greatcoats. Like much in the Prussian Army these were in short supply. Even the French mistook them and asked then to change sides. A volley was their answer.

Dear All
I have not got the information with me but will post on Friday. At least some of it or you could contact e-mail me on s.summerfield@lboro.ac.uk so I could send you part of the manuscript.

It is over 120 pages alone on the Infantry. So far I have written 350 pages on all aspects of the Prussian Army. The Artillery section need more work. Alas the newly published works have been of little assistance.

Comments and suggestions would be appreciated. It is still not there yet. It has taken 5 years at the publishers for the book on cossacks that I have only had the final proofs for last week.

Stephen

Thanks summerfeld. If you run across any more info on the recruitment of the Westphalian ldw, please post it. It's a fascinating topic and an important one for wargaming 1815. The same ?'s could also be asked re the Elbe Landwehr in the same year. Were these troops recruited from former Saxon territories? And what formations they have been fighting in - if any - pre their absorption by the Prussians?

Dal, Bulcher & Napoleon was on the cover of the napoleonic rules that I published in 1979/1981 (Guard du Corps). Not Wellington or one of the Austrian or Russians.

For a new player back then , it was an easy army to play (tactics) and ended up being quite colorful with some research.

Stephen,
I'd certainly be interested in anything you can share about the later Prussians.
theswamp@btinternet.com
Cheers
Swampster

As another gamer who has been collecting the Prussians since the late seventies I am really enjoying this discussion. I have a fair to good library on the Prussians and I'll try to contribute when and where I can. One caveat, while I have been told I am a supurb oral communicator, I have enough evidence to believe I am poor written communicator. If anything I write sounds negative it is because I express myself poorly in writting and for no other reason.

The reason I mentioned the Sagan flag was that there is evidence that it was carried into the fall campaign, after the armistice and that other units may have ignored the order too.

Since most of what we're talking about is specualtion my feelings are that the Wars of Liberation were a highly emotional time in Prussia and other parts of Germany. Since Prussian formations, particularly LW formations had a strong regional and patriotic foundation they would be loath to give up a standard presented by the local nobility/government/patriotic society.

The reseve regiments are a different story. They are more tied to the army establishment and while I hadn't thought of the diversity of their makeup it is certainly a factor in designating a stamm reg. The other factor would be that the inactive stadards were more then likely under official control and harder acquire in the face of an official ban.

Having said all that my Prussians of every type (barring light inf) all have batt. colors.

huevans - In Peteer Hofschroerr's Prussian Landwehr and Landstrum he says that the Elbe province consisted of Pre 1806 Prussian territory that had been ceded to the Kingdom Westphalia. This consisted of the duchy of Magdeburg, less the city, which was still occupied by the French, the Altmark, the principalities of Halberstadt and Eichsfeld, and the counties of Mansfeld, Hohnstein and the Saalkreis.

By March 1, 1814 12 batt and 4 squad ahd been raised. The officer corps of the Inf. were mostly Westphalian and the Cav. mostly Prussian

So essentially they would have been Westphalians, albeit Protestants who were previously under the Prussian Crown. Thanks!

G'day.

As another gamer who has been collecting the Prussians since the late seventies

I'm starting to feel a little old. I won't say when I started collecting my Prussians, but I remember finding a brand new copy of The Prussian Army 1808-1815, by a certain David Nash, on the shelves of Napoleon's in Sydney. And thinking I finally had all the answers to the questions Military Modelling hadn't answered, in their "UniformInfo" section. At that stage my 20mm Minifig Prussianss only cost 20c each.....

Rudy, Dal, Bulcher & Napoleon was on the cover of the napoleonic rules that I published in 1979/1981 (Guard du Corps). Not Wellington or one of the Austrian or Russians.

Good man! I never got to play GdC but read a good review, from memory. In those days the club was moving from WRG 1st Ed. and Grant to "Frappe", a US set that might have been an early (and very clumsy) iteration of Empire.

For a new player back then , it was an easy army to play (tactics) and ended up being quite colorful with some research.

I sort of fell into the Prussians by accident. The other people had the French, Russians, British, Bavarians and Austrians. It was a choice of Prussians, Swedes or Danes for me to have a different army. I chose the Prussians and, since then, have been learning how little I know about them.

I still remember my 27-strong Helwigsches Streifcorps lancer unit. Not that it ever had any success, mind you. But those red hussar uniforms looked very nice, en masse!

Jim S, I am really enjoying this discussion.

Same here, mate. Glad to meet yet another "good guy". It may be enough for a coup! Today TMP, tomorrow Salute und Coldt Vars!

Since most of what we're talking about is specualtion my feelings are that the Wars of Liberation were a highly emotional time in Prussia and other parts of Germany. Since Prussian formations, particularly LW formations had a strong regional and patriotic foundation they would be loath to give up a standard presented by the local nobility/government/patriotic society.

I agree. That was probably why the order was repeated and the threat to confiscate the colours was made. The October directive apparently didn't have the desired effect.

Stephen, The officers in the newly incorpated units from Berg were wearing the new regulation uniform. The rank and file were wearing their original Berg white uniforms. It was after the action at Fleurus etc. after they had lost a number of officers that they were ordered to wear greatcoats. Interesting that they actually had greatcoats. Like much in the Prussian Army these were in short supply.

I wonder if the greatcoats were their Berg issue? I knew they were wearing them after 14th June, but I'll ignore that little detail- if I ever get around to building the unit.

At least some of it or you could contact e-mail me

I will, mate.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, gents.

Dal.

The issue seems to be whether the korps commanders actually followed through with the threat to confiscate flags. I'm not sure Bluecher or Gneisenau would really care enough to carry out the threat. They had bigger things to worry about and anything that got the boys motivated was probably fine by them. Yorck and the others were fairly conservative and "Alte Armee" though.

Some of the posters here seem to have considerable insight into the Prussian Army and may be interested in a thread I started on another board re "Why the Prussians lost at Ligny".

Limk is...
link

I checked the caption in PH's book re the Sagan Landwehr flag. (I think pribably a few other guys did that too). The flag is embroidered with a caption that it was carried through a number of the Fall 1813 battles. So either someone's fibbing in church or those flags never really got confiscated!

All Over the last couple of years I have concentrated on the 1813 campaign in general and over many years the Prussians in particular. I have accumulated a fairly extensive library and am retired. If there is any way I can assist anyone please feel free to e mail me at mtjim@frii.com.

G'day.

Hugh/BB, I don't know whether anyone did follow through on the threat to confiscate flags or not. Certainly as 3/1 Silesian's was laid up in a church, there's at least one that wasn't confiscated. But it's interesting that the flag didn't make it to Leipzig or 1814, when the battalion certainly did. That would indicate they finally gave in and sent it home. Confiscation may also be a reason why so few landwehr flags may have survived.

I read your thread on the NSF, mate. I still visit regularly, but I don't post as I don't want to deal with a couple of the people that post there. While I have all the respect in the world for Max and most of the crew, I have better things to do than get involved with the likes of KK and DH.

My thoughts on the subject are similar to John Cook's and Allan Mountford's- Napoleon had the initiative, the Prussian deployment was poor (not the myth of bering deployed in sight of the French guns, but trying to defend both sides of Ligny creek) and another point- the quality of the army was lower than the French. People overlook the last bit, particularly the large number of new recruits and landwehr in the army.

A fourth point is Napoleon's tactical genius, though Ligny isn't the best example of that.

Jim S, thanks for the offer. I'm always happy to talk to a fellow obsess... I mean enthusiast. :-) I'm busy during the week, thanks to my job. But I'm free most weekends. If you'd like to compare books, etc (or if anyone wants to drop me a line) my addy is dgavan@goulburn.net.au.

Cheers.

Dal.

PRUSSIAN INFANTRY STANDARDS
This is an extract from the writings so that it is a little clearer upon infantry standards. Flags were not confiscated as such, they were returned to the depot and stored. As you are aware, standards are the pride of the regiment and loosing them is a great disgrace. No doubt it was partly this as well as Prussia not having the money or time to produce more standards.

Alas I cannot attach the tables as this discussion board does not have the facility.

Dal I have sent the first part of the book. The infantry (129 page manuscript, 54000 words) The bibliography is in another file. It is still work in progress. Comments, suggestions and especially questions would be useful.

I have tabularised the standards that were issued in September 1815

INFANTRY STANDARDS
The majority of flags were lost during the 1806 campaign. Over 340 infantry and cavalry flags were taken by the French. Only 28 infantry colours and 49 cavalry standards remained. The different between the Leibfahne & Retirierfahne colours is that the Leibfahne's always had the white background whereas the Ordinaries had the coloured background. The motto on the scroll is "PRO GLORIA ET PATRIA".

All infantry colours except IR2, IR8, IR11, IR14, IR16, IR42, IR52, and IR58 were lost during the Jena campaign. On 27 November 1809, the Convention of Paris resstricted the Prussian army to twelve line regiments permitted, only the 2 musketeer battalions of each regiment were issued colours. The first flag of each battalion was called the Avancierfahne and the second flag was called the Retirierfahne. The I/ battalion had one colonel (Leibfahne) and one ordinary (the Retirierfahne). The II/ battalion had two ordinaries (an Avancierfahne and a Retirierfahne) of the same pattern and colour as the Retirierfahne of the I/ battalion. The grenadier and fusilier battalions were not issued flags.

On 10 May 1811, the musketeer battalions were allowed to retain both colours but only one was to be taken on campaign. The 1st battalion had the Leibfahne and 2nd battalion an Retirierfahne. This regulation was in place when the Prussian Expeditionary Corps was mobilised for the 1812 campaign. The 12 battalions that went to Russia took one colour each.

On 28 March 1812, the ordinary colours (Retirierfahne) left behind by the expeditionary Corps battalions were issued to the six grenadier battalions. Grenadier battalions normally carried the Retirierfahne of the senior regiment from which their companies were drawn. The exception was the West Prussian and Silesian Grenadier Battalions.

On 13 January 1813, the staves of the Guard regiments with silver finials were changed from white to yellow. On 14 February 1813, IR10 (1st Silesian) lost both its colours at Etoges and was not replaced until September 1815.

On 20 August 1814, it was ordered that each musketeer and grenadier battalion was to carry only one colour during peacetime. On 3 June 1814, IR13 to 26 and the Landwehr were authorised to carry colours but they were not issued until after 15 June 1815 too late for the 1815 campaign. On 28 September 1814, Fusilier and Jäger battalions were authorised to carry colours. The issue of colours did not take place until September-November 1815. The Fusilier battalions of the 1st and 2nd Foot Guard regiments already carried colours earlier that year. From 13 Dec. 1814, Leibfahne's colours were no longer issued to line regiments.

Jim
I have sent you the same document I have written as mentioned above. Comments, suggestions, corrections and questions are always welcome.

Finding books upon this period is getting harder and harder.

Stephen