"GW hatred..." Topic

Hey Leland/BlackWidowPilot!

I just wanted to thank you for the suggestion for a lizard ATV. I think it just might do the trick! I googled the Chamond and may well be looking for a model of it. I hope I can get it in S scale or something close! I'm looking up Old Glory as you suggested. I like the way it extends over it's treads.

picture

picture

I'm also going to have to get some dune buggies and replace the seats with some kind of motocycle like saddles because Skinks have tails.

I hope to be able to convey that the lizards are mercenaries more on the thug side rather than the security side. They are supposed to be sort of mid twentieth century in their native technology but have (since becoming interplanetary mercs/bank robbers/muscle) become exposed to more advanced stuff like laser rifles, shoulder fired guided anti tank missles, and 3com.

Alien Surfer while I kind of like the idea of using the GZG bodies with sawed off skink heads I think it might be more fun to sculpt gear and armor on the little plastic bodies rather than just replace them outright.

hey BlackWidowPilot,
Thanks for your help, you've done my dead uncles and aunts poud.

GW has nice customer service.
They have a nice staff.
They have a nice product.

They provide a flood of games that help keep wargaming alive.

I do not personally care for their fluff.
I do not care for their marketing strategy.
I think they are overpriced - even considering inflation.

I think it is inapproriate to base the price of a model onits point value in a game. If it is a limited run, or ultra detailed figure that is another matter. If it is limited use it shoul probablly be limited run then as well. Otherwise every kid who wants to win with a pocket full of cash will.

Otherwise every kid who wants to win with a pocket full of cash will.

The very essence of power-gaming, indeed, and one of the main reasons why I don't find CCGs or CMGs or 40K to be any fun anymore.

What irks me is that a Space Marine army can be built in no time. A box or two and a tank is all you need!

Try collecting something like Skaven, you'll be buying regiment boxes forever to get a sizeable army!

Last post, that refers to the equivalent points cost, some armies are very costly others are cheap on a figure to figure basis so what I mean is that to get 1000 points of Skaven you need a sea of figures.

But if they're cheap (points), then doesn't that make them expensive (money)? Might be better off just buying a couple boxes of Terminators and calling it good.

That's what I mean, you get boxes of 20 orks for £15, and boxes of 10 space marines for the same price. But in game terms the ork player has to buy about 4 boxes to make a force of equal points cost!

260+ posts. Man, that's a lotta hate!

link

one reason I hate em

second is their rules are I hated the way my jetbikes had to stop out of cover and become sitting ducks in order to get a shot off insted of wizzing past filling the opposing unit full of lead then dissapearing over a hill like a jetbike should.

Shockforce works WH40K dont

third they are just plain dishonest. Look at the above link and tell me what company does not want you to make conversions of figures?

forth thier store creatures give me the screaming s. I have just taken to saying " off you total arse clown!" when they rock up with their rote marketing/sales questions. They arn't interested in what Im doing they just want to suck money out of me like a 2 penny crack .

fifth their prices are totally obscene. I can get better figs off better people for a fraction of the price. 2 quid for a set of wings!!! for that price I can buy 2 complete figs off other companies!

sixth their fanboys are totally over the top. I used to play in tournaments and was wholy underwhelmed with most of the people I played against. Power gamers almost to a man. Fun be dammed, winning was everything to these losers.

seventh their destruction of the independent game stores due to their predatory marketing and other underhand acts.

and thats why I hate em.

I do mean HATE as well.

Bunch of ing arse clowns to a man if you ask me.

surely **** clowns is profanity and frankly I find it disgusting that TMP is now letting degrading words on its boards.

Your just upset the Dunnydoo under 11's beat the english A grade at cricket again Red.

I can understand hating a company, not wanting to buy there products, but I don't understand hating anyone who does like there products. Surely there are reasonable people who play GW games. I would like to consider myself reasonable and I have been known to play a game of Warhammer.

As for the link Scurvy. Most of that looks like a Cover there butt type thing. Not really anything completely out of line there, not that I saw.

I admit there are some irritating GW fan boys, but there are irritating people THROUGHOUT the miniature hobby.

I care for GW about as much as I care for Reaper or any other company in this hobby. They are all just people selling stuff, sorry if that is a hurtfull view to some people who are devoted to companies like Heresy, Rackham, or GW. I don't have a devotion or Anti-Devotion to any companies, if they produce a miniature I like, i'll buy it, cost allowing. And I think that's the way it should be...

Good Gaming.

Whoa - Scurvy, time to switch to decaf, mate! Take a breath!

Your just upset the Dunnydoo under 11's beat the english A grade at cricket again Red.

Uh... is this one of those cryptic Illuminati messages?

Hey, Scurvy! Did you read far enough down that page to get to the "T-shirts, Clothes, Tatoos and the Like" section? Catch this:

T-shirts, Clothes, Tatoos and the Like

As always, we cannot allow third parties to obtain money from our intellectual property.

This effectively means that you would either have to buy Games Workshop T-shirts or clothes or make them yourself. You would not be able to sell any t-shirts or clothes that you make.

This also means that we cannot allow tattoos as an acceptable use of our IP as a third party necessarily has to perform the "service."

Now they're trying to tell us we can't get a tattoo??? How, pray tell, are they going to police and enfore *that* one? This borders on ludicrous.

Create, distribute, or use any material that is derogatory, obscene, or offensive.

Hmmm... that covers about 80% of posts here on TMP.

I have to say this really is getting epic! No not 40k epic but epic in reality terms!

I think there are a lot of people who have basically accepted that they like pretty much everything about GW bar its price plan.

I know its been said but the best way as a consumer to get them to change this is to not buy it, write letters of complaint etc. If you have kids, dont stop them buying it, get it off ebay! The money isnt going towards GW then, just another gamer wanting to off-load.

It has to be said that although I thoroughly enjoy GW games, I too have found them to be unreasonably priced. It is one of the factors that has made me move onto other jeanres.

I now have 20mm armies for WW2, Ancients, Vietnam and ACW. 25mm Armies for Ancients and some for WW2.

Its not something that I am going to loose hair over. I made an agreement with an outgoing store manager as a kid that if the price rose over £5.00 GBP sterling for a standard miniature like a lieutenant I would stop buying their stuff.

This I have done and now only surf the holy shrine which will ever be known as ebay for second hand bits and pieces. I have been surprised as to what I can find. Generally speaking you can pick most things up for about %25 less.

You can also get hold of some of those old harder to get minis.

I think that their prices will have to freeze at some point but like I have said before that all depends on how long they stay popular at that price.

I think they base their prices on the average weekly pocket money for kids. Not that kids are their sole market. Infact that did hit them in the pocket recently - like a lot of other companies who thought it is better to get new customers than keep the ones they already have. Hence the new approach of the White Dwarf - all of the hobby tips have come back along with re-visiting specialist games and mentioning their past.

I dont think that GW are bad, I think a lot of people are angry that they have progressed from an ford escort to a porsche without trying to carry the affordability of the original.

And as for pricing more powerful creatures more highly when they maybe of the same material content. I can only suggest that people do their research and look at other figure companies and other manufacturing companies.

Part of the figure is its table-top role. People dont mind paying more for one-off figures (figures you are likely to only have one of in your army) than infantry.

People who avoid GW players because they dislike the company ought to hate Warhammer Ancient players along with Wargames Foundry, Perry Miniatures and countless other companies who have direct links to GW. Many of the current sculptors were apprentices with GW.

The fact that the hobby is still alive and has improved in content is largely down to the fact that they have encouraged people to take it seriously.

At one time it was like Stamp Collecting, you did it but didnt tell anyone incase of ridicule. Now more people than not know about it and know what it entails ans so have respect.

WHIP!!!!

LASH!!!!

That's the dead horse....

yellacanary "I dont think that GW are bad, I think a lot of people are angry that they have progressed from an ford escort to a porsche without trying to carry the affordability of the original."

Porsche is hardly what I'd compair GW to, more like a Plymouth Prowler. Over priced and full of problems.

Javelin most everything in that link is offensive. The ones that got up my nose the most was "dont use our bits with third party figures" and "other companies dont want you to do conversions."

I was thinking the other day how the eureka cayman warrior aztecs would make excellent human followers for a lizard man army. Add a cool new unit type to the game and from a business point of view would drag a few extra people into spending money on GW lizardmen cus they liked the extra fluff it would add. With policies in the link above it will never happen. (Jasus wept if it wasnt for the fact Im going sci fi with my aztecs I would of got some lizard men and done it myself.)

This hobby is all about creativity and thinking outside the box. (Space rat marines a good example) not being stuck in some stodgey universe where all difference must come from the minds of a select few and comply with the dictates of the accountants.

Pox on em I says POX ON EM!

Give that man a mdeal (even if he is an Aussie). Totally agree with you Scurvy. A year or two back at Salute my dad was buying some 25mm medievals off a small one man company (IIRC) and got chatting about what he was playing/going to use them for etc. My dad turned to him and said, well, to be totally honest I'll probably do a few head swaps and alterations and then re-mold them, do you mind? The guy didn't mind at all, he knew dad would still end up buying more, wouldn't be re-selling them and was glad someone liked his product enough to be taking it further etc. A very very refreshing attitude in my opinion.

I think the bit about GW not authorizing the mixing of other peoples IP with their own in model conversions is epecially stupid when you remember that butt ugly roll-on bottle hover tank from Rogue Trader that had other peoples IP (guns and missle launchers pulled directly off of of ZOIDS kits) stuck all over it. Even the roll-on bottle could be seen as a design and therefore someone else's IP.

That IP link was pretty interesting, but I don't have a problem with it. They're just covering all legal grounds incase the situation arises to protect their IP.

What I do in my own home with GW and another manufacturers models (ahem!) is my own business. I really don't see GW kicking my door down to stop me mixing my GW old RT era IG sprues with my EM4 Ganger sprues! And that was something I was doing only last week and will continue doing this weekend.

Sure if I was suddenly casting these conversions and selling them I'd expect both GW and EM4 to jump on me pretty hard!

GW do turn a blind eye to a good number of websites that have long OOP rules available for download and whatnot.

I do have to say that the tattoo rule was entertaining to read! I mean people would want a GW picture/whatever as a tattoo?! Now THAT'S scary! ;)

Those interested in EE's IP policy have a look here:

link

Mind you, I'll be watching you all. Scurvy was the first!!

Talk about not reading the small print.

It doesnt say that you can not do these things full stop. Its just ilegal to do them and sell them as your own design or without mentioning its originality.

Thats what copyrights are for.

They are not telling you that you cant swap manufacturers parts around etc. They are saying you cant do it and mould the figure up and claim it as your own intellectual property.

Talk about only seeing what you want to!!

Sargonarhes; "Porsche is hardly what I'd compair GW to, more like a Plymouth Prowler. Over priced and full of problems."

There are very few companies out there that offer the whole bundle at such a high level of quality. To not even recognise that this has been integral to their success is rediculous. I respect people for not liking something but to say that it isnt one of the leaders if not THE leader of this industry is quite shocking.

The fact is they do have some of the best miniatures currently available. And you may well come up with other manufacturers whose models are as good or better than theirs but I am sure you will find that the prices are also pretty similar.

The car analergy may have been bad but the principle is the same. I shall try something similar. If you are in the uk its a bit like the way people hate Manchester Untd. Or in the states the Yankees. People seem to dislike success, and in many cases deny that the company at hand is successful, or has the best products or in sports players.

"The fact is they do have some of the best miniatures currently available. And you may well come up with other manufacturers whose models are as good or better than theirs but I am sure you will find that the prices are also pretty similar."

Their quality falls down with the larger models though, their LOTR Fellbeast with the Witch King riding it is a solid £30, a lor of money IMO, but the quality is right off, the model simply does not fit together, unless told you wouldn't know that until you start building it though...

Their smaller stuff is good, but their larger stuff isn't, the Mumakil costs a fortune anyway, it added insult to injury when I found out the amount of work I had to put in to disguise the seams and ledges where the parts went together. Sorry but for half of that cost you get scale models which are almost perfect in every way, and fit together perfectly, from companies like Tamyia and Dragon.

So the cost isn't reflected in the quality, I'm very cautious about buying their boxed sets in particular at the moment. Their prices reflect their use in the game, not the quality of the model.

I personally have never found a large-scale figure by any wargames company that fits together well without modelling some of the seams etc.

And the one thing you do have access to if you struggle with these issues is people in the stores to help you.

I have a grenadier zombie dragon that is a fantastic model but I had problems putting it together in the same way you did. My only problem is that I couldnt take it down to the store and ask if there was anything wrong with it or if they could help me put it together.

Yes I agree the prices are steep. I was simply pointing out that people do have this blind hatred that makes them uncapable of giving credit where credit is due.

In my opinion, they have the best fantasy/sci-fi range available. Yes the cost is high but I think there are few companies out there that offer the same overall package, so it is hard to say that they are a rip-off for the smaller figures.

I would agree with the larger figs though, they can be and are outrageously priced. Hence why I seek them out through other means.

As for the gaming side of things, I think the power-gaming side of their games has been heavily beaten with the new sets of rules. Its far more clear-cut and incurages more distinctive armies and reliance on one or two inventory overloaded charactors, something that still happens in other games.

There are other manufacturers that come close. I like some of the Celtos stuff, I would like it a lot more if the weapons werent so cartoonish and oversized! Reaper are good but their prices are not far off GW. I am yet to see these Russian Zzvedza things so cant cast an opinion on them just yet.

This is the thread that never ends...

;)

OK, what is the longest running thread? Anyone know?

Talk about your lack of reading comprehension the small print DOES state you MUST NOT do things specifically using GW IP with 3rd party property please if you want to make an argument in favor of these full of themselves lowlifes then do so using a logical premise NOT that people cant read or understand what they (GW) is saying.

And mcdonalds warns you there coffee is hot.. we are in a day and age where legal blabber is made to be idiot proof...

Anyways.. I bilieve the fine print line was aimed at the guy that posted the link to the stuff we had been talking about for a little while.

'Anyways.. I bilieve the fine print line was aimed at the guy that posted the link to the stuff we had been talking about for a little while.'

So? I posted a link so people could look for themselves. I have some legal experience and I can say some things are a bit over the top and will not hold in a court of law. And on some points GW is right, bit if it's clever -well that's another matter.

Take this for example:

'PLEASE NOTE that any work you create using our intellectual property is not "owned" by you. It is called a "derivative work" and those parts based upon our IP do not give rise to their own copyright. Please bear this in mind when using our IP.'

I remember Games Workshop when they started out selling a vast variety of other publishers games and chessboards.Then they went solo and excluded other games/figures and the this constant need need to rekeep publishing everything!!!!.
For me they do nothing now!!!! (like a knowing an x-girlfriend that keeps asking about you) i lost interest in them when they buried "SPACE HULK".
That was an excellcent game until they let it die a miserable death.
Today they are to "corporate" and have left all their good ideas back in the 80s.OK OK times change we all move on,but their figures are not the whole gaming world and are in my opinoin are to "flash-harry" to big and to bright.Where are the simple figures that do not look like "walking designs for computer motherboards".Also i do not feel any romance towards them anymore,shame because there was a time when i thought they were good!!!.And when asked i tell people "NOT!!! NOT!!! to buy anything "GAMES WORKSHOP".

Thanks for listening.

No doubt.

The love _is_ gone!

I don't have any rancor for GW. I just let my dollars do the talking. And after spending thousands of dollars with GW during the 80s and 90s, my money has not said much to GW in many years (discounting the fact that GW took over controlling interest in WH historicals a couple of years back).

Instead, I spread my dollars amongst my favorite, smaller, independent game materials producers.

Fred

I remember Games Workshop when they started out selling a vast variety of other publishers games and chessboards.

Yeah, I remember White Dwarf used to discuss AD&D, Paranoia, Star Trek RPG, Middle Earth Role Play, Call of Cthulhu - there were tons of other companies' products being bandied about in the pages of WD. Ah, how Tom Kirby's inquisition has changed things.

@Javelin98 - But remember that GW also published Paranoia, Star Trek RPG, MERP and CoC back in the day. ;)

Uh... no, I think Paranoia was a West End Games product, MERP was published by Iron Crown, and Cthulhu was a Chaosium publication. Don't know about Star Trek. The salient point, though, is that back in the 80's, WD was a true gaming magazine, whereas now it's solely a GW advertising vehicle - one more reason for former dispossessed fanboyz to be disillusioned about the changes in GW over the past decade. All the best stuff shows up in Black Gobbo now anyways.

I love GW for one, not 40k, but I love fantasy and WAB, good systems to me. But I do agree that it is much because of there sucess, you are always going to have someone disliking you because of sucess. F'in player haters!

@Javelin98 - I was only poking fun mate. But GW *did* have the licence to publish these games for a short while, along with Rune Quest and the like around '85-'87. I think the Star Trek RPG was around '83.

I agree WD used to be a very interesting magazine back then and it was total rubbish until Fat Bloke took it over around '96. I still remember quitting reading it after issue 103. I only started to rebuy it when you got free cardboard scenary and the like in it.

Currently I subscribe to WD and although they're only pushing their systems I still find a lot of their hobby articles have been very good.

2468Motorway:

"Take this for example:

'PLEASE NOTE that any work you create using our intellectual property is not "owned" by you. It is called a "derivative work" and those parts based upon our IP do not give rise to their own copyright. Please bear this in mind when using our IP.'"

Actually it seems to back up my point. They are not saying that you can not do it, they are simply saying that you cant use parts from their models to create an entirely new one and claim that it is ALL of your own creation.

This is to prevent people sculpting figures using parts from their minis and then selling them or promoting them as their own work. Quite simple and straight-forward copy writing.

As they suggest as long as the conversions are used for nothing more than gaming purposes their are no breaches of their copyright.

Please do tell me if I have drastically miss-interpereted what they have said, I was allways told my understanding of English was very good (being English it should be I guess!).

No worries, BugStomper! I see your point.

And what's more important is that my superfluous post here is pushing us closer to the 300 mark! Post, my pretties, post!!

GW and now FoW use the spoon feed system. You do not need to do any research yourself or hunt down and read source material its all there in a colourful book, once read you know the lot.

It's the way of the modern world. Funiture is made of chipboard, food is pre-prepared and microwaveable, and news papers have loads of pictures. FoW are utterly dreadful rules but they have nice pictures and its all in a box, done for you, you dont have to think.

Researcher-wargamer-modelers are slowly disapearing as we grow older and turn into recluses :-)

@ yellacanary
There's nothing wrong with your english.

'Please do tell me if I have drastically miss-interpereted what they have said, I was allways told my understanding of English was very good (being English it should be I guess!)'

IP law is quite tricky, but the nice thing is -thanks to several nice treaties- that it's almost worldwide the same thing. My point is that in the link I have provided too many absolute statements are made. This might be my impression of anglo-saxon which tends to say: 'If it isn't written than you can do it, you can't do it'. I don't think the real world works that way.

It is possible to create a seperate copyright from another copyrighted work, as long as the new work is a creative new work. (As an extreme case, otherwise, a pencil or paint company can claim IP on a painting or drawing you create.)

2468Motorway

I still wouldnt interperit that way. Its more like you paint a picture and then say you made all of the colours and the canvass yourself without using a product you can buy.

The message I get is that you can do pretty much what you like with their figures as long as you dont breach copyright or claim that a model made using pieces of their kits is entirely made from your own sculpting ability. In otherwords not recognising their parts when showing it off.

I think its common sense and most figure companies have rules like this. If you want to know some of the worse facts about GW I suggest you try working for them, I am sure that if people knew what they get up to with their staff all hell would be let loose.

I did work for them once but am slightly wary of reporting what they got up to incase I breach the official secrets act. What I will say is that talking about IP they pretty much get you to sign yours over to them! Basically if I invented anything whilst working for them they could lay claim to it even if it had nothing to do with their product range/industry.

There are other stains but like I say, I could be traced and put in court for saying anymore so I wont.

It's ironic that they talk about not using their products in ways they don't like, etc...

I distinctly remember an issue of White Dwarf with a plasic model skull (Airfix I think) which they featured as part of their making Chaos scenery article - It was painted black/green and supported by spikes I think, you may recall. They didn't say where it had come from, but I have one of those models and I'll be damned if it isn't the very same model kit.

Come to think of it that very same skull appeared again in an issue I have here, #278 page 20, where it is used as part of their Tomb Kings scenery. I quote "The skull was, again, from a resin model that Mark managed to find deep within the bowel of the Games Workshop Studio". Well strangely I recognise this particular skull again, I'd say they've re-cast the front part of the plastic model skull to have a resin copy to use on the front of their building.

Hypocrisy anyone...?

Jesus, the point is that they havent claimed it to be their own creation. That is the key here. And it may just be possible that they didnt know where it came from!

Like I have said before - see what you want to see.

But if they had broken Airfixs IP rules they would have been punnished. They havent.

Its all about claiming the originality of the item and its components. You can do what the hell you like with a GW model and any of its components as long as you DONT say that is YOU OWN SCULP etc.

I dont think they could make it any clearer if they tried.

The idea is to stop the other figure companies from making figures which feature part or parts of their own range.

For example say that a guy sculpted up some fantasy orcs but decided to use some GW weapons and heads. A company took interested in these sculps and bought then from him under the idea that it is his and only his IP involved.

I hope that clears things up. Its not really that hard when you think about it.

There's nothing wrong in recasting other people's models and featuring them in your magazine which they make a profit from then?

If I was producing a magazine and re-cast some of their model tanks to make terrain for an article I'd probably be sued for profiting from their material without their permission. I doubt they got into trouble with the skull because Airfix probably didn't notice, even though it's fairly obvious where its from if you've seen one before.

The point is that they haven re-cast it and claimed it is theirs have they?

Thats the point. They are not offering it to sell it or claim it to be their creation. Therefore they are not copying it.

Airfix may not require a mention for using it, that depends on how you view your own IP.

The fact of the matter is if GW were loose about their IP there would be hundreds of other companies that would try and make money from it.

I simply can not believe that its not clear to you what they are truly saying!

And the key part of your statement is re-casting. As soon as you do that you have broken the copy-right laws and you are open to being sued because you have directly copied their product.

That part is the same if you copied anything without permission. You are not allowed to do the same with books etc. By law you are not even supposed to photocopy more than a certain percentage of a book otherwise that counts too.

All that GW have said is that they treat all parts of their model the same way so should you use an orc arm or head in a sculpt that is replicated they will treat it in the same way.

And when you think about it, that is covered in the copy-right laws also. You are not allowed to write a book of your own that contains two chapters from another book and calling them yours.

Essentially whether you are copying the whole model or just part of it if you choose to re-produce then you are breaking copyright and IP laws.

Saying that, if you do something for yourself and keep stum about it there is little or nothing they can do. If you make copies of symbols to use on terrain and such there is little they will do about it. You just have to use you head with things like this.

They are not likely to take you to court over one or two back-room copies of small items like skulls or heads etc because it wouldnt be worth their while risking it in court.

These IP regulations are no different to any creative professional companies and even universities. My university reserves 50% of the copy-right on student work to aid our security should a visiting company "borrow" one of our ideas without permission.

If you have a problem with that then you probably dont like Capatalism!

From Scurvy's link:

"For example, whilst most companies would not allow you to convert their products, we think that conversions are an integral part of the hobby, so we love them!"

I've never, ever heard of a company that jumps on anyone for conversions. Especially in the model world! Which is all the more relevant because don't the WH rules refer to their miniatures as models? I know they do in the LOTR games.

No but they they do refer to their miniatures as models when the show how to convert them or re-sculp parts of the models to alter how they are armed or to make them more unique.

Seriously if you guys have a problem with GW it cant only be how they have worded their IP statements!

This is just desperately scraping around the barrely to find something that sticks and that doesnt rely drastically on opinion.

Again I will say it;

GW DOES NOT JUMP ON YOU FOR CONVERTIONS

If they did why is it you can walk into the stoor and ask them to help you with a modeling project!

Weee!!!

We're over 300 posts. And some people thought we'd run out of steam back on 200. :-D

*hands out party hats*