"GW hatred..." Topic

"I think for many folks it is the same thing that turned my son off of the collectible card games. When he would go to the shop to play on Saturday, the shop would have a certain amount of kids with parents who were willing to spend big bucks on the kids. (Divorced parents vying for affection, yuppie parents dealing with guilt of not spending time with youngsters, etc. - -all the things you see in modern society, including kids who know how to play the parents for the things they want!) Anyway, the kid looks at the big, powerful high-priced cards and says, "Oooh, I just have to have these!" $50 USD USD to $150 USD USD later, the kid comes over and says, "Hi. Want to play?" Then he promptly trashes everyone at the table, NOT because he plays the game well, but because he has a powerhouse deck. My son got to the point where he only played sealed deck tournaments, where you have to "make do" with the cards that come in the original deck, and rely on your playing skills and luck to win. "

Iaroslav,

Here you've hit upon my own biggest pet peeve with the corporatist/profits-uber-alles mentality of GW; by imposing the hard-sell/built in obsolesence/you're an elite if you play our game systems mythology on the miniatures gaming hobby, target children who are of an impressionable age with carefully tailored marketing methodology, and make sure that the price points are as high as possible, GW has -intentionally or not- brought a nasty mentality to the hobby as a whole, increasingly making it a "rich man's game" rather than an enjoyable hobby that can stimulate problem solving skills in the younger generation, teach sportsmanship, and even some social skills(!).

Instead, the system they have imposed -whether intentional or not- panders to and encourages an exclusionary mentality, one based upon "us and them" rather than "all of us" as a mindset among younger children. IMO, if GW makes their "hobby" a game for the rich kids on the block, it means that the *majority* cannot *afford* to play, cannot participate, and are somehow less-than those who can.

30 years ago I was attracted to the hobby of miniature wargaming -specifically the science fiction genre- because it struck me as something just about anyone could realistically afford to do. I started with STARGUARD!, and made my own vehicles and props by kitbashing inexpensive historical tank kits and plastic recyclables. I continue to do so today, and encourage others to do the same, passing along the idea that 1) just about anyone can get into this hobby, and 2) it's about having FUN! While I accept that this may make me a lousy businessman, I am just not impressed by the lasse-faire arguements of the for-profit faithful, so I accept the consequences, whatever they may be...;)

"I see similar analogies with FOW and the points system in some posts here at TMP. If the rules allow unlikely combinations of things that make a "killer army", then the big, bad escalation effect kicks in."

Yes, and my own experiences with points driven systems is that "gimick" armies are OK for a while, but unless your opponents are asleep at the throttle, they're sooner or later going to figure out what your weaknesses are, and *expoit* the bejeezus out of them.

" Personally, I prefer to have armoured cars, light tanks, cruiser tanks, artillery, and infantry with Universal carriers for my Brits in the desert, and hope that we can keep Rommel at bay with a fairly historical representation of what was actually there."

What you describe here is a balanced, combined arms force far better suited to the combat environment you're choosing to recreate in miniature. I for one prefer the same combined armes approach, even when I do ancients, fantasy, or science fiction. And I especially enjoy the look on people's faces when I play early 20th century wargames with *combined arms* forces that *really did exist*prior to 1939 (ever game the Polish War of Independence 1919-20?), *and* provide the documentation to prove it. Ever watch a swarm of FT-17s supported by Tirailleurs hit a German trenchline head on? Man! Whatta train wreck! ;)

" The win is much more satisfying when you know you have taken the somewhat poorly equipped army and used it to maximum effectiveness."

LOL! And people to this day wonder why the HELL Leland insists on playing the 1940 French Army. The 1940 FRENCH?!!! Mon dieu!! ;)

Leland R. Erickson
(HisEvilSelf, who just finished painting an MS406 for the Syrian Campaign)

("What do you mean 'I think he just won..?'")

I remember the days of Old School SPace Hulk. *sigh* the time limits on Marines. Genestealers LOVE corners and Terminators LOVE long corridors.

"GW has -intentionally or not- brought a nasty mentality to the hobby as a whole, increasingly making it a "rich man's game" rather than an enjoyable hobby that can stimulate problem solving skills in the younger generation, teach sportsmanship, and even some social skills(!). "

You got it. Anyway you look at this, GW, for all its success has done the abovementioned things.

I still admire their eye candy though and imagine if they went all out on historicals.... oh the fun it would be...
*(still the prices would hurt)

Marc

I can agree to that mentalitiy that GW has done. It felt like an arms race with us when we played. Every one in my group had to get the next uber-trooper or what and it just esscalated.

We got side tracked from Battletech which was still an arms race, but there was always a counter to whatever new mech was fielded.

"I still admire their eye candy though and imagine if they went all out on historicals.... oh the fun it would be...
*(still the prices would hurt)"

Beggin' the Captain's pardon, but no, I would definietly NOT want GW getting heavily involved in historicals for two (2) good reasons:

1) Can you imagine the rows that would result from their
rendering of history? ;)

2) Can you imagine their actual sales figures when
historical gamers -a notoriously crumudgeony bunch when
it comes to spending money- refuse to pay GW prices for
their figures? ;)

I *do* like their Lord of The Rings figures, even if they are pricey. But I don't think for a minute that I could afford to indulge WHFb or WH40K under the current system, as it is beyond this humble family man's budget, and will remain so for the forseeable future.

No matter; I have my historicals, my STARGUARD! forces, and my vast space fleets of original kitbashed warships capable of laying the WH40K Imperium of Man to waste several dozens of times over...After all, it's all about having fun, isn't it?! Bwahahahaaaa!!! ;)

Leland R. Erickson
HisEvilSelf
(whose armies of Metal Magic Space Lords figures grossly outnumber his Tau, and make his 40K Space Marines stay well hidden lest they be nuked out of existence by the horde of Phagon Battle Clones, Sardakin Legion, and Bauhaus Ducal Militia)

P.S. Anyone know what the Hell happened to the Space Lords figure moulds from Metal Magic? Dammit! I MISS those most excellent figures! :(

Why was this posted on the WW2 board?

Allegedly, GW used to get feedback from customers (yes, actual customers) that the stuff should cost more (yes, MORE) so as to make it more "their thing" when the proles could no longer afford it.

This was in UK, which apparently still is a class society.

I've never posted a comment on a forum before, but this topic has been especially meaningful for me as I am just in the process of ending years of dedicated involvement with GW games–replacing them with historical wargaming.

I started playing WH40k just before the 2nd Edition rules came out, and I frankly had never seen anything like this miniature tabletop world before. The hobby stores I had encountered were mostly geared to roleplaying games then (and these were independent stores, not GW) and although I knew in theory that there were historic wargames out there, I had never seen one played. So of course it was GW games that I became involved in.

And I guess that's why this topic is being discussed on a WWII board. Like it or not, GW has a tremendous impact on the hobby. An awful lot of players start off with GW games just like I did, and when they give up the "GW hobby," they're either going to move on to other games or else quit wargaming altogether. Guess which option they're going to choose if we treat them like scum because they've been playing GW games...

Things are so different now from when I started playing D&D in the late ‘70s. Kids now have console games and computers. Convincing a 12-year-old that it would be more fun to spend hours painting and playing with model tanks than to immediately jump into a game of EverQuest is tough. If we want there to be a future for our hobby, we need all the breaks we can get.

And if that sounds a little too idealistic, let me say that I've spent more hours running tournaments and demo games of 40k (and Warhammer Fantasy, and Blood Bowl, and Battlefleet Gothic, and all the other GW spinoff games...) than I care to remember. I won't begin to pretend that dealing with a room filled mostly with teens and pre-teens is always fun. Painted minis thrown against the wall in fits of temper, arguing rules calls, flat-out cheating (in tourneys where the only prize given out is for sportsmanship, no less!), well, you get the point. But watching some of the worst cases grow into decent adults that I still enjoy gaming with makes it more than worthwhile. (-:

Anyway, what finally killed the GW games for me was the power-gaming. For all of the designers' talk of sportsmanship in their rulebooks, the way their games are set up now tends to encourage players to design armies that are as close to unstoppable as possible, to the point where the game itself is secondary to army creation. (Funny, I always thought that the fun of wargaming was supposed to be all about playing with forces that are as evenly matched as possible, so that skill and the luck of the dice decided the victor...)

(Although the generic army lists included with the 3rd Edition 40k rulebook weren't all that bad. After selling all the rest of my GW stuff, I kept my Epic collection and my daughter and I still play with the 3rd Edition rules and the Epic models, converting the ranges from inches to centimeters to help compensate for the smaller scale figures.)

Since I still have a lot of 6mm scale terrain for use with my Epic models, I'm starting to collect WWII microarmor. CinC looks like they have good prices, although their selection isn't as wide as GHQ. I also liked the look of the Skytrex models. Any other suggestions for good 6mm lines that I can either get my local hobby store to stock or else mail order to the U.S. ? Thanks!

Hmmm...I have'nt the time to read all the posts...so the first page will do....Why I "dislike" GW... IT'S EVERYWHERE... I've grown bored with it...Yes it got me into Miniature gaming but...geez...You can only re-release minis so many times...Gad...I hate it...And dont get me started on the rules....3rd edition cr*p...4th edition...cr*p.... sigh... Yes it is a game for 12 year olds...

Tell us your feelings Captain.

Tell us all how you're really feeling.

Well my "hatred" really started When the Tau came out... I spent so much money on preorders only to be let down by the small army list...*sigh*...Cr*p....all of it...Thank god for ebay...Although I still have a bunch of tau left...taking up space in my carrying case...

Bloodbowl,
Man 'O War,
Mordheim,
Battlefleet Gothic,
Epic,
Warmaster,
Necromunda,
WHFB,
40K,
Battle of 5 Armies,
LOTR,
Inquistor,
Dozens of stand-alone Boxed Games,
Gaming Supplies,
Hobby Supplies...

Now THAT is a legacy of FUN. Imagine the countless hours thousands of kidz have had with these games. So many rainy days happily spent assembling, painting, dicing...

Now, how could anyone really HATE that?

There are enough things in this world that really are bad and are worthy of hating - GW is not one of them. Spend your hate elsewhere, or just put a sock in it - there is enough hate in the world already...

~mArK

Most of the things on that list are no longer supported.

Which for many is the nub of the matter. GW turn out a lot of their specialist games as the latest craze to scoop a lot of quick money, and then kill them off - they stop stocking them, make them mail order only and vastly expensive, don't promote them and don't play them in-store or feature them in the magazine. Most of their specialist games only appear for a year it seems, after that you have to move heaven and earth to get hold of material for the games, or in fact players!

What I really don't understand is why they've never done anything with Man o'War. Everyone who has commented on the game say that it's absolutely first rate. They only featured it in 2 issues of White Dwarf or something, and now ignore customers requests for a re-release and seem to want to stamp it out of existance, it's really hard to get hold of a copy for an affordable price. It was even ignored completely in their anniversary magazine recently even though some of their other non-warhammer products like the Chainsaw Warrior and Doctor Who games were featured.

But Mark....Are these games not based around Hate?... Its the common theme for ALL GW games...Oh...and you forgot "Bommerz over Da Sulphur River"....

Howard said what I was thinking - pretty much everything you named has been sacrificed on the "40K/WHFB/LOTR" altar. The worst part is that if you even mention "is XYZ game ever coming out again?" on the official GW/Fanatic forums, you get verbally abused by 40,000 Fanboyz until finally a moderator locks the thread. Been there, done that.

I'd love to see more stand-alone or spinoff games come out from GW. There were some real gems there - Talisman, Space Hulk, Mighty Empires, Quest, Dark Future, etc.

War...Hammer...What is it good for? Absolutley Nothin...
*sigh*...I stand by what I say... Mini Games are always better...

The other thing is, there are some great specialist games out there. But I assume it's more profitable in the short run to make an entirely new game and publicise it to death for a quick return, the following xmas there will be another such game. If they really wanted to support the gamers, then their best creations would be regularly available, like Man o' War and Blood Bowl, this would mean a constant and steadier, but lower, profit.

This is the only explanation I can think of for them turning out new specialist games every other year, coming up with turkeys like Warmaster instead of continual support for their best stuff. Quick return, high profit, a lot of people lumbered with something that is redundant within a year.

I just bought a 16 pack of plastic Saurus for converting into an aetherverse army(I guess). Unfortunately what was packed inside the box was 24 skinks. Oh well. I'm just going to use them for the conversion anyway since plastic lizards with shotguns and wife beater armor are plastic lizards with shotguns and wife beater armor when all is said and done. Technically I got more figures for my money. But I liked bigger tusked boney plate headed critters better than the little fin headed dudes.

I'm gonna get a Beloved of Sobek and a couple of Harbingers of Sobek to lead the army with. Maybe I'll get some Kroot to play Hill Billy lizard man scouts or irregulars...

I don't hate GW but I ain't buying most of their figures at the current price. And I like to get what I bought in the box.

Okay, this is an absurd comment:

- - But Mark....Are these games not based around Hate?... Its the common theme for ALL GW games...Oh...and you forgot "Bommerz over Da Sulphur River".... - -

Uh... what do you think WAR is all about, Love and Friendship?

Almost every miniature game that people play is about WAR. WAR is about HATE, DEATH, and DESTRUCTION.

So now you are complaining that GW has too much 'hate' in their games?

Yeesh.

I don't see any hate in the games when I play Orcs vs. Elves with my son. Just fun and good times, good memories.

~mArK

PS: Yeah sad thing about Man 'O War. Ok so if there was one thing to hate GW about it might be that :))

Retaliation!

- Okay, this is an absurd comment:

- - But Mark....Are these games not based around Hate?... Its the common theme for ALL GW games...Oh...and you forgot "Bommerz over Da Sulphur River".... - -

Uh... what do you think WAR is all about, Love and Friendship?

Almost every miniature game that people play is about WAR. WAR is about HATE, DEATH, and DESTRUCTION.

So now you are complaining that GW has too much 'hate' in their games?

Yeesh. -

I was waiting for this...Thanks "thought"! Have a cookie!... Ask any War Veteran...Like My Grandfather and My uncles...They didn't go to war because they "hated" Germans...They went because they HAD to... for the greater good... War is not all HATE... Yes, there is death...thats inevitable...and destruction...Also inevitable... But its not always about hate...Also, you dont,or hardly, see Pictures of Soldiers in any modern war carrying Severed Heads and Skulls...Sure its the "future" but Thats just Wrong...And unsanitary...

And...in the words of the great "thought"...Yeesh..

Also...I'm basing the Hate factor on all the back Stories and "history" of the GW games... Im not basing it on the fun factor...All miniatures games are fun. I can remember playing games with my recently departed friend... We wondered why the armies in 40k couldnt be allies...It turned into an theory that the GW team is to lazy to write army lists for combined forces...after that the GW minis went into a box and it was all historical gaming from then on... So thats my 2 cents... Im no longer posting on here... This argument is silly... You are either for GW...Or not for GW...I for one am not...

"We wondered why the armies in 40k couldnt be allies...It turned into an theory that the GW team is to lazy to write army lists for combined forces"

Actually, in some of the earlier editions of 40K (and WHFB) different forces could ally with each other quite freely - this tended to lead to certain possible problems with balance as far as I recall.

Griefbringer

Ah historicals, the last refuge of the scoundrel. ;)
Hey, let's keep th thread going...

On another TMP thread, the blister prices will go up again soon. ;)

You could mix armies in 40K in the original version. The Eldar where pretty much pirates and mercenaries in Rouge Trader.

I knew Warhammer from the first edition, my brother took on the second. What we found out prety soon, was that most of the fun was in the 'power' design of the army, when in practice, the game would last a couple of turns.

It rolls through a whole genre of games, especially Sci-fi.

Historical is all about research, which in itself becomes a 'power' game.

The scenario is king, players will always remember a well thought out game, regardless of what figures you have in your collection.

GW are the fast food of minatures, the triple X necron wapple blaster with extra chease will be the menu of the week, but it's up to the maturity of the players and game designer which will make any lasting impression.

AFAIC, more empthasis should be made on the design of the battle, rather than basing on a flexible points system which will always be floored by the introduction of new tech/figures and position within terrain (how do you add points for terrain advantage?, does anybody try and tackle this?)

A question related to the latest uber force.

Who would want to play the Iraqis in the last war?

Not many.

But the scenario could dictate the victory conditions as depending on minimal western losses, reflecting western media pressure.

The whole hobby is based on imagination. I find it quite sad when people argue the letter of the law in a rule, when what's more important is when the story they are creating, should be controlling their major focus.

"Ah historicals, the last refuge of the scoundrel. ;)
Hey, let's keep th thread going..."

That's MISTER Scoundrel to you, Captain! ;)

"On another TMP thread, the blister prices will go up again soon. ;)"

And *this* is news because...? ;)

Leland R. Erickson
(HOW much play value do I get for my dollar playing *historicals? LOL!!! LOL!!! ROFLMAOH!!!)

Well put, RedSalmon! Scenario-driven games are one reason why I play Stargrunt these days, as it sets up well for scenarios vs. power-gamed army building.

Stargrunt is FUN! itis what 40K should have been.

I better shut up before GW buys out GZG.

Stargrunt meets 40K...

"Holy mother of - " whispered Pugh, "It looks like someone slapped a set of treads onto a dumpster!"

Kemmerman snorted his agreement. "And check out Buck Rogers there! Sticking his big, ugly ol' head outta the hatch, and not even bothering to stick a helmet on it! Think he's got a 'Shoot Me' sign on his back, too?"

"Cut it," snapped the sergeant, "We've got work to do here. Sorenson, have you got a lock yet?"

"Yessir," he replied, his gaze remaining fixed on the Scorpion's display. "Ready when you are, sir."

Nodding, the sergeant tapped at his com unit. "Jessup? You ready?" He nodded again at the reply. "All right then, on my mark...NOW!!"

There was a sudden sharp crack, and the enemy officer's head vanished, replaced by a rapidly dispersing red mist. This sound was fllowed a heartbeat later with a loud "Crump!" as the Scorpion rocket penetrated the side of the APC. The vehicle skewed sideways, smoke and flame billowing from the hole in its side, as the second rocket hit, this time impacting at the rear.

The APC exploded with a satisfying roar, scattering pieces of men and metal across the field.

"That," Pugh said with feeling, "was abso-freakin-lutely beautiful. You know that? That's a god-darn piece of art right there, Billy! You should get down there and sign it, you know?"

Sorenson shrugged as he repositioned himself, targeting the second APC. "It's eighty percent inspiration, ten percent perspiration, and one hundred and ten percent detonation, my man."

The APC shuddered, and obligingly lost a tread, as the rocket hit it.

"It's a bloody good thing that you can shoot, buddy," Pugh said, 'cause you sure as hell can't add." He shook his head, waving at the men spilling out of the crippled vehicle. "Now look at that! Bright red armor? What are they, color-blind? Or just stupid?"

"Neither," interrupted the sergeant, "they're arrogant and VERY well armored. Now, shut up and shoot."

"Yessir," Pugh muttered, shouldering his rifle, "shooting away, sir. Doesn't seem to be doing much good, sir."

"When I want your opinion, Pugh, I'll be sure to tell you what it is, understand? Just keep firing. And Sorenson, wait for my command, dammit!"

The armored men seemed largely indifferent to the rifle fire, only a few even bothering to return it.

Miller shook his head as he sprayed bullets down the hill. "Jeez, what the heck are they firing? Howitzers? Those are the biggest bloody rifles I've ever seen!"

Pugh snorted. "Yeah, but do think they can actually hit anything with 'em? Might as well just throw the darned things at us for all the good they're doing!" He yelped, jerking back as a crater was blasted into the ground a foot away from his head. "Yeah, yeah...same to you, Murphy!"

"You know," Pugh noted after a moment, "they really don't seem very happy, sir. In fact," he added, as he changed clips, "they seem downright ticked off. Sir."

The sergant ignored him. "Jessup? There's a guy down there with a very big gun. Yeah, the one painted yellow. Eliminate him for me, would you?"

There was a flash, a bang, and one of the men at the bottom of the hill collapsed, a neat little hole visible in the side of his helmet. Pugh made an approving noise. "Very nice, Jessup! You and Sorenson, you're like the...the..Boticellis of the battlefield, you know? Frickin' artistes, I tell ya!"

"‘Boticellis of the battlefield', Pugh? What are you on, anyway?"

"It's called culture, buddy. Give it a try sometime. You'll like eating with a fork, I just know it!"

"Um, sir?" Miller said, abruptly, "Sir? They appear to be charging, sir. Up the hill, sir."

"Yeah," the sergant replied with satisfaction, "Yeah, they certainly are, aren't they? The big bastards are nothing if not predictable. Just keep firing, private. Williams, Cook? Be ready."

"My God," Pugh marveled, "the guy in front has a sword! A god-darn sword! What's in his other pocket, a flint freaking spear?"

They did, he had to admit to himself, certainly LOOK impressive. Each stood at least seven feel tall, and their brilliant red armor made them look even bigger. "Kind of a shame they're such morons," he muttered.

Two of the charging men fell, neither making it even halfway up the hill, but the remaining seven kept coming, firing, apparently at random, as they did.

"Now!" the sergant shouted. "Now, dammit!"

The man in the lead, the one waving the sword, was cut almost in half by the incoming plasma bolt. Those behind him stopped sort, caught in the crossfire as William's and Cook's squads opened fire. Sorenson fired the Scorpion, catching one man squarely in the center of his chest. The result was, while interesting, far from pretty.

The concentrated fire of fifteen men proved sufficient. Almost. Only one man made it to the top of the hill, his armor cracked and pitted with innumerable bullet holes. Moving with remarkable speed for such a large man, he surged forward, grabbing the sergant by the throat before the rest of the squad could react.

"Now," the man rasped, his voice distorted by his helmet, "you shall die, in the Emperor's...."

*BLAM*

He stopped.

Looked down.

Saw the smoke rising from the barrel of the pistol pressed firmly against his stomach.

And fell, gently, to the ground.

The sergant stepped back, rubbing gingerly at his throat. "He was a tough bastard, I'll give him that much," he said, hoarsely. He prodded at the corpse with his toe, dislodging the man's helmet with a sudden fierce kick.

"Good lord, what did they do?" asked Pugh, "Shave an ape?" The man's features were grotesquely exaggerated, almost to the point of caricature.

"That," said the sergant, "is what happens when you combine several centuries of extensive genetic and bionic engineering with being raised from birth to worship an immortal psychopath. Makes you understand the Promixa Covenant, doesn't it?" He sighed. "Stupid goddamned fanatics. They think they entire universe should play by their rules. Well, screw that. We're gonna show 'em how a war is SUPPOSED to be fought. Space Marines, my butt!" He kicked the corpse again, not gently.

"How do you like life at ground zero, meathead?"

Javelin98,

ahem...ROFLMAOH!!!!!!!!!! ROFLMAOH!!!!!!!!!

Javelin98, you....ROFLMAO!!!!...are...ROFLMAO!!!!....a....ROFL!!! ROFL!!!<tears streaming down face>ROFLMAO!!!!...GENIUS!!!! ;)

Leland R. Erickson
(Himself, 30 years of playing STARGUARD! under his belt)

Javelin,

You are truly the Boticelli on this thread. My hat is off to you. I've read that before, it is hilarious and STtargrunt made its mark on me!

Thanks - I *wish* I'd written it, but I actually purloined it off the GZG listserv! I did clean up the language for kiddies, though, but otherwise it is entirely the property of whoever I stole it from!

Javilin - that's possibly the most refreshing thing I've read in a long while. Thanks.

Amazing simply amazing. How many tangents to a post can their be? So many pro/anti comments.

However it seems to me that short posts even several of them can be more effective than very long and wordy posts.

Greetings

This has been very entertaining. Keep feeding the Troll..
My personnal Opinion is everybody has made a point both for and against. So spend your money anyway you want.
Because in the Grand Scheme of things GW don't matter unless
you want it to.

I kinda think that a point blank stubber wound wouldn't likely slow a Blood Angel down much less drop him.

I also think the squaddies might have been more convincing had they faced some slightly rougher space marine tactics like supporting fire from a devastator squad or a dreadnought, a drive by from some bikers or land speeders, or perhaps a flanking attack from a squad of infiltrating scouts one of whom has a heavy bolter and oh I dunno...some scouts in the distant cover with Sniper rifles, a vindicare assassin and maybe air support? And maybe if the Imperials attemped some EW to disrupt communications....

I mean I could charge a squad uphill with GZG guys towards waiting Space Marines just as easily. Wouldn't make much of a point though. Heck I could have a light Kurita mech run backwards at some NAC gropos if that would build up their egos...

Space Marines made properly under GZG rules would be a tough cheesy army. They'd be psychologically hardened veterans ALL in power armor with potential access to teleportation and psychics! And if they lost they'd just virus bomb the place!

I just don't think it would result in a bad sequel to Rorke's Drift in space.

"I just bought a 16 pack of plastic Saurus for converting into an aetherverse army(I guess). Unfortunately what was packed inside the box was 24 skinks."

You should call GW, tell them the batch code number, and get the right ones sent to you.

Steve

When I had the boxset of galloper guns from GW the plastic wheels sprue was miscast making two of them useless. So we called them, told them the problem and they asked for the part series numbers and everything, we told them plastic spoked wheels.

They sent us the wrong sort of wheels, the solid sort not the spoked sort so that was a waste of time so we gave up.

Anyway a few months later we ordered some odds and ends of things, mainly extra bits for my dad to put more horses on his black coach, some other things, an orc figure and two plastic spoked wheels!!!

The order arrived at the store, this was when is was free to order in-store, and the order was incomplete!!! Among other things that were missing were the 4 plastic skeletal horses and my plastic spoked wheels.

So the bloke in the store rushed to action and made up the order by grabbing things off the shelves! We had 4 skeletal horse men for the horses, so now have 4 metal riders loose at home, and the cheapest thing he could find with a pair of plastic spoked wheels was...The galloper gun blister pack.

Oh the irony, I used the wheels to make the first galloper gun, now I have a second shy of two spooked wheels.

That story was great. Which reminds me, does any one know where to find the site that had a description of the Gulf War if fought in 40K. I remember General Powell was equiped with Washington's rifle, but not much else.

Great story Javelin, again the imagination is king. I know Dirtside, but not StarGrunt. But what is very clear in these games, are their flexibility in taking in any universe and openess to figure sources.

I don't hate GW, I just don't get on with their futuristic Universe. I think they should have made a clean break from their fantasy stuff, but if you're onto a winner, why not monopolise?

Orcs in space!!! :shakesheadthinkingofamuppetsymbyology:

It's cool angryboy2k. I'm just gonna use the skinks. They take guns(clip off the spears and blow-guns)and green stuff gear molded on pretty well and I actually got more of them than would have come in Saurus sprues(24 instead of 16) and I can always buy some Saurus guys later. Actually the little fin heads have kind of grown on me.

I'd call it a happy accident now that I've had a few days to think about it. I'm still planning to get some Kroot and Saurus eventually.I'm also looking for old dragons and dinosaurs for some of them to ride and some WWI vehicles or Ork Truks type of stuff that I can renovate into some Road Warrior type vehicles for them.

"I'd call it a happy accident now that I've had a few days to think about it. I'm still planning to get some Kroot and Saurus eventually.I'm also looking for old dragons and dinosaurs for some of them to ride and some WWI vehicles or Ork Truks type of stuff that I can renovate into some Road Warrior type vehicles for them."

Paleo*gamer,*;)

Old Glory Miniatures has a pretty extensive line of WW1 figures and vehicles in 28mm scale. IMO their French Char St. Chamond would convert into a positively insane 40k style Lizard AFV, being WW1 but "not yer British rhomboid" in configuration. The St. Chamond was the second French AFV deployed in WW1, and featured a huge boxy armoured body, a full-sized 75mm field gun in the bow, and a heavy machine gun mounted on each side, front, and rear.

You can also track down some of the 1/35 scale plastic WW1 tank kits from Emhar; try Squadron.com for the best price and service here in the US. These vehicles will be larger than the Old Glory vehicles, but IMO if you dont mind them being significantly larger than a Land Raider, you will have a great timeconverting them for your galaxy conquoring Skinks. ;)

Hope this helps!

Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net

palaeoemrus - mate of mine (Cowboy Joe here on TMP) has taken some of the older skink heads and put them onto some GZG troops - makes for a great hard sci-fi non fantasy style race of lizards. Might be worth a go?

- - I was waiting for this...Thanks "thought"! Have a cookie!... Ask any War Veteran...Like My Grandfather and My uncles...They didn't go to war because they "hated" Germans...They went because they HAD to... for the greater good... - -

For the 'greater good'... so they're Tau?

And don't get me started on this 'greater good' B.S. There is this popular belief that we fought WW2 as a battle of good versus evil, but that is garbage. Yes the Nazis were scum, but don't feed me a line about how the Allies were saints. We weren't, by no means. We did quite a few things that in retrospect weren't very noble either.

It was Total War, so that is the way of it. But don't hand me a line about us being the Good Guys. We were simply our side. Their side was particularly bad, but one of our allies was every bit as bad as the enemy we were fighting.

Makes it hard to keep that halo polished under those circumstances.

We like to say it was about ideology, but it wasn't, not really. They wanted our stuff, or they wanted the stuff of our allies, and we didn't want them to have it. It was really that simple. That is what war is usually about, somebody wants someone else's stuff, and the other side doesn't want to let them have it.

As for fighting because the HAD to? Some people think that way, but I don't think they'll retain that opinion after watching their buddies die. If your relatives say that now, I imagine it is with 60 years of mellowing out, but if they were front line soldiers, they probably had to learn to hate the enemy, otherwise they would have had a tough time killing them.

Unless your relatives are sociopaths. Only a sociopath kills without emotion.

No, I think you'll find a lot of front line soldiers didn't have 'neutral' feelings about the Germans. At the time they probably had quite strong feelings. They were the enemy, the very definition of making them the enemy is that you hate them.

Afterwards you can go back to not hating them, but at the time of the war? No...

And some people never got over it.

What do you think all the propaganda films were for? Military psychology requires you to hate your enemy, otherwise you are unreliable, you won't necessarily pull the trigger when you need to.

- - War is not all HATE... Yes, there is death...that's inevitable...and destruction...Also inevitable... But its not always about hate... - -

Technically no, War is usually about stuff.

But average soldier from Canada or the US didn't care about whether or not the Germans wanted Poland or not. They were the enemy, there had to be a reason to want to kill them, so they were the enemy, and they were hated.

If you simply think of them as human being on the other side of a war, which is a very modern attitude, you are going to have real problems after watching your bullets chew them up.

Air crews had it easy, they could just drop bombs or shoot at planes, and not think about the people under the bombs or in the planes. But infantry can see their enemy die. And if you don't hate them enough to want them to die, you are going to have a hard time after you kill one, or even killing them in the first place.

- - Also, you dont,or hardly, see Pictures of Soldiers in any modern war carrying Severed Heads and Skulls...Sure its the "future" but Thats just Wrong...And unsanitary... - -

Soldiers often take trophies. Usually the trophies are things a little easier to transport, a rifle, a hat, some insignia, that sort of thing. But taking heads certainly has historical precedent.

And I would like to point out that it is the 'evil' armies that usually collect heads, Chaos, Dark Eldar, Orks. Everyone else has skulls all over the place (and yes, I think they are overdone as well) but they aren't 'real' skulls, they are more like insignia.

- - - -

The story was amusing I will agree, and the statement of them being arrogant and very well armoured is a good point. But attacking that rifle squad is no different than attacking Imperial Guard or Tau (especially Tau) so I'm afraid the 'legitimacy' of the story is in doubt.

As has been stated, if Space Marines are translated into other system (Stargrunt 2, AEtherverse) faithfully, they are very deadly. True they may not assault much under the new rules (SG2 deciding that assault isn't desirable), but they will have obscene armour, and very dangerous weapons, and in the new system, I think you'll find the Space Marines will hit more often than your typical rifle squad. And as SG2 decided that points aren't necessary, the one Space Marine squad would probably eat one regular rifle squad for breakfast.

- - - -

GW has plenty of sins, I won't argue. But I recommend you stick to their real sins instead of making others up.

And BTW:

This is the thread that goes on and on...

Everybody sing it!

This is the thread that never ends!

Well, just to push us closer to 250, I'll throw this fuel on the fire:

tinyurl.com/aqcfh

Notice that the Genestealers boxed set has dropped from 12 to 8 'Stealers now? And the price has... stayed the same! £15.00 GBP is just shy of $30 USD for those of us here in the States. And just three years ago the 'Stealer box contained 16 figs! I remember because I was trying to price out how much it would cost me to scratchbuild my own Space Hulk set.

This must be part of that "Less is More" doublespeak coming out of the Nottingham station of Airstrip One these days. God bless Tom Kirby and all his silly antics!

"- - I was waiting for this...Thanks "thought"! Have a cookie!... Ask any War Veteran...Like My Grandfather and My uncles...They didn't go to war because they "hated" Germans...They went because they HAD to... for the greater good... - -

For the 'greater good'... so they're Tau?

And don't get me started on this 'greater good' B.S. There is this popular belief that we fought WW2 as a battle of good versus evil, but that is garbage. Yes the Nazis were scum, but don't feed me a line about how the Allies were saints. We weren't, by no means. We did quite a few things that in retrospect weren't very noble either."

Thought,

As the son of a WW2 US Marine Corps veteran (PTO, Heavy Artillery) and nephew of a US Army veteran (ETO, Combat FO, 3rd Army, German Campaign), and USAAC/USAAF veteran (pilot officer), and speaking as one who has listened to more WW2 veterans *of both sides* recount their experiences, and as a college graduate trained in research methodology, a military historian by virtue of a lifetime of intensive study, I have to disagree with this gross, cynical oversimplification regarding the morality of the Allied cause.

"It was Total War, so that is the way of it. But don't hand me a line about us being the Good Guys. We were simply our side. Their side was particularly bad, but one of our allies was every bit as bad as the enemy we were fighting."

Yes, WW2 *WAS INDEED* *TOTAL WAR.* I will not take on this straw man arguement. The *bad behavior* you are primarily refering to -Stalin's Russia- was undeniably and irredeemably evil, except for the fact that 20 million Russians were killed during WW2 by the GERMANS who had INVADED the (former) Soviet Union in strict obedience to the racist Nazi ideology espoused by Adolf Hitler and his supporters. Period.

That Stalin left a higher body count of his own people there is no doubt! But if you consider the plight of the average Soviet soldier, from private with a Moison-Nagant rifle to Zhukov himself, ALL faced the very real prospect of being suddenly, arbitrarily, and without warning executed on trumped-up crimes against the state by the NKVD, with Stalin's approval, and facts and evidence be damned. That the Nazis entered Russia with the stated intent of subjugating and eventually ethnically cleansing the native Slavic peoples is also an irrefutable fact.

The bottom line for anyone looking at the blood-soaked Eastern Front from 1941-45, is that one must remember that the average Red Army soldier was a semi-literate peasant caught between the rock and the hard place of Stalin and the NKVD, AND the Nazi war machine. No quarter could be expected from their Nazi opponents, and a bullet in the back of the neck could *always* be expected from the NKVD commissars for the slightest "cowardice" under fire (like a tactical withdrawl to a better defensive position.

"Makes it hard to keep that halo polished under those circumstances."

Really. IMO a halo requires the assumption that WW2 vets believe they were wearing the silly things at the time of their service. Aside from a large number of Nazi fanatics and their fascist allies (ever hear of the Ustashi?), IMO such a nonsensical belief was few and far between amongst the allied soldiers...at least none of the vets I've ever spoken to indicated that they ever wore anything on their heads except a steel pot or a leather pilot's helmet and goggles. In all of my years of study of the Second World War, it seems that on the evidence it was THE NAZIS who insisted that God was not simply on their side -every Nazi soldier's issue belt buckle bore the slogan "Gott mit uns!"- but that they WERE gods fulfilling their destiny, the Master Race of humanity destined to rule the world after cleansing it of the *untermenschen* infesting the place (ie., everyone else).

"We like to say it was about ideology, but it wasn't, not really. They wanted our stuff, or they wanted the stuff of our allies, and we didn't want them to have it. It was really that simple."

Thought, you need to rethink this -seriously rethink this. This is a grotesque oversimplification of WW2 and its causes. It is a gross oversimplification of the motivations of entire societies, of entire peoples caught up in this war.

" That is what war is usually about, somebody wants someone else's stuff, and the other side doesn't want to let them have it."

How about: One side declares that your people are subhuman scum, and therefore they have the God-given right ("Gott Mit Uns!")to exterminate you, drive you from your ancestral lands, and call it their own? This in a nutshell was the Nazi credo; just crack open Mein Kampf and find out for yourself. Hitler rationalized his insane hatred as fulfilling the collective destiny of the "Aryan race." Enough Germans bought into this ideology that the country launched a war of aggression that eventually engulfed the world, and killed around 70 million people.

"As for fighting because the HAD to? Some people think that way, but I don't think they'll retain that opinion after watching their buddies die. If your relatives say that now, I imagine it is with 60 years of mellowing out, but if they were front line soldiers, they probably had to learn to hate the enemy, otherwise they would have had a tough time killing them."

Oh, NUTS!! *Thought* this is NOT the onset-of-senility-after-60-years opinion of WW2 veterans!! ARRGHH!!! The majority of veterans I've had the privledge to speak with were COMBAT VETERANS. NOT one of them -not even the Nazi U-boat NCO I spoke with- expressed the slighted *hatred* of their opponents. Rather, it boiled down to grim survival; "If I didn't kill them first, they were sure as Hell going to probably kill me!"

"Unless your relatives are sociopaths. Only a sociopath kills without emotion."

Under no circumstances did I encounter any sociopathic personalities; did I mention my degree is in Psychology? But I can guaran-damn-tee you that there were plenty of clinical sociopaths and psychopaths in the fascist ranks, as such ideologies of racially-spun hatred draw psychotics like s*** draws flies. Doubt me? Start with reading about Unit 731 and Shiro Ishii, The Bataan Death March, the Rape of Nanking, "comfort women," Reinhard Heydrich and his role in the SS, the role of the Croatian Ustashi movement in the Balkans, the Vichy French Milice, Rudolf Franz Hoss, and then get back to me.

"No, I think you'll find a lot of front line soldiers didn't have 'neutral' feelings about the Germans. At the time they probably had quite strong feelings. They were the enemy, the very definition of making them the enemy is that you hate them."

OK, this begs the question; How many actual veterans of WW2 combat have you spoken to? How many written accounts of veterans of WW2 combat have you actually read?

"Afterwards you can go back to not hating them, but at the time of the war? No..."

The following quote speaks for me here:

"Those men on the line were my family, my home. They were closer to me than I can say, closer than any friends had been or would ever be. They had never let me down; and I couldn't do it to them. I had to be with them rather than let them die and let me live with the knowledge that I might have saved them. Men, I know now, do not fight for flag, country, the Marine Corps, or glory or any other abstraction. They fight for each other."

-William Manchester, USMC, WW2

"And some people never got over it.

What do you think all the propaganda films were for? Military psychology requires you to hate your enemy, otherwise you are unreliable, you won't necessarily pull the trigger when you need to."

And on the evidence propaganda is not as effective as dictators would like; read THE FORGOTTEN SOLDIER by Guy Sajer (ISBN# 345-02535-0-195) and THE HOLOCAUST by William Hermanns (ISBN# 06-011839-3), then get back to me about what motivates soldiers in war...and just how effective propaganda really is....

"- - War is not all HATE... Yes, there is death...that's inevitable...and destruction...Also inevitable... But its not always about hate... - -

Technically no, War is usually about stuff."

War of AGGRESSION, yes. But war in defense of one's home? Please.

"But average soldier from Canada or the US didn't care about whether or not the Germans wanted Poland or not. They were the enemy, there had to be a reason to want to kill them, so they were the enemy, and they were hated."

OK, as a "yank" I'll speak for what I know to be true about *why* the US was involved in WW2. Ahem. Two Words: Pearl Harbour.

Nazi Germany then declared war on America soon thereafter, NOT the other way around.

"If you simply think of them as human being on the other side of a war, which is a very modern attitude, you are going to have real problems after watching your bullets chew them up."

An interesting perspective; so *you* would see members of the Waffen SS who just burned your village to the ground and machine gunned your whole family in front of your eyes as human, and therefore you wouldn't feel motivated to kill them? More to the point; if you *knew* that that was what was an established MO for an invading army (ie., IJA in China 1931-45), then wouldn't you at least feel compelled to act in some manner to defend your homeland, your people, even your own immediate family? Or would you feel too in touch with the *humanity* of the aggressors to resist them violently?

"Air crews had it easy, they could just drop bombs or shoot at planes, and not think about the people under the bombs or in the planes."

LOL! <shakes head sadly> I wonder what all of those fighter pilots and bomber crewmen I've spoken to would say about this comment, especially the ones who heard some of their friends over the intercom or radio frequency during their last moments of life while their aircraft went down in flames, or watched someone sitting in the seat next to them stop a piece of flak shrapnel or an explosive round from an Axis automatic cannon (20mm to 30mm calibre)? Or visited some town in Europe after they'd bombed it due to a navigation error? Imagine how the bomber crews felt after being told how their bombs landed on Allied troops during Operation Cobra?

"But infantry can see their enemy die. And if you don't hate them enough to want them to die, you are going to have a hard time after you kill one, or even killing them in the first place."

Oh, boy. OK, it's all too apparent to me that you haven't really read or watched interviews with *actual combat veterans.* At least not very many...

"- - Also, you dont,or hardly, see Pictures of Soldiers in any modern war carrying Severed Heads and Skulls...Sure its the "future" but Thats just Wrong...And unsanitary... - -"

Rwanda. Balkans. The list goes on. :(

"Soldiers often take trophies. Usually the trophies are things a little easier to transport, a rifle, a hat, some insignia, that sort of thing. But taking heads certainly has historical precedent."

This is stating the obvious. But again, Rwanda, Balkans, ad nauseum...

"And I would like to point out that it is the 'evil' armies that usually collect heads, Chaos, Dark Eldar, Orks. Everyone else has skulls all over the place (and yes, I think they are overdone as well) but they aren't 'real' skulls, they are more like insignia.

- - - -"

Like the Totenkopf Verbande. 3rd Waffen SS Division "Totenkopf" ("Death's Head"). Yeah, skull insignias galore, but no skull trophies - unless you count all the Allied POWs and Russian civilians they slaughtered as a matter of routine course. Don't believe me? Let their own *official* record speak for itself; the best English language account is SOLDIERS OF DESTRUCTION (ISBN# 1-56865-834-6).

I for one value what the ALLIED soldiers endured on our collective behalf. I agree that while they may not exactly be qualified for sainthood, they are far from the despicable servants of racism and venality of the majority of their Axis opponents.

Now can we please stay focused on the topic at hand?!!

Fer cryin' out loud...;p

Leland R. Erickson
(who will never forget a classmate's grandmother with a number tatooed on her forearm, nor the nice lady whose aunt was "eccentric" because she had been a "comfort woman" during the Japanese occupation of the Phillipines)

Wheee! Post # 251. Does this mean I get a halftrack?

"Yes it goes on and on my friend. Some people started typeing it not knowing what it was and they'll continue typeing it forever just because."

Sorry, Thought just inspired me to it.

And some of you are getting a little off topic. So the reduced the number of Genestealers in a box, huh? That only means other boxed troops will logically follow. Termagants, Eldar Guardians, Kroots... And then they'll raise the price again.