"GW hatred..." Topic

I want to make a comment about something I saw in here, and in an odd way it indirectly relates to the main discussion:

- - go watch the documentary SUPERSIZE ME and then see if you still want to eat at McDeath's. ;p - -

Actually, that documentary can be accused of many of the same sins as Micheal Moore's stuff. It had a point to make, and made it. If it didn't, it wouldn't be sold.

The experiment was unscientific, and uncontrolled, the results purely anectodal.

Apparently after seeing it, another person performed the exact same experiment, he however had been eating McD's for a long time. Guess what, he didn't have any of the nasty side effects the guy in Supersize Me did.

Why? Could be many things.

A couple I can think of are:

Could have been psychosomatic. The guy in Supersize Me wanted to prove that the food was bad, and so he beleived it was bad, and he got sick, because he wanted to.

Could have been a shock to his system. The guy in Supersize Me exercised and ate well, and then suddenly stopped exercising and started eating McD all the time, and this freaked out his system. Meanwhile the other guy, who was more 'normal' didn't have the radical shift.

Or it could simply be another case of YMMV.

Me, I could probably eat McD every day and not risk death. I simply wouldn't want to, I would get so BORED of it, so fast. My diet overall though probably isn't much better than eating McD all the time, so it wouldn't be a big shift, just boring.

"I get the connection now. Sorry about misunderstanding."

No way Tim O is toast, I'll kick his butt! No, wait, I'll kick the butt of his metal pumpkin heads!!!

There take that!

Javelin98: It's been a combination of the US, UK and Canada. Some of the experiences I've witnessed in person, others have been related to me on the phone with old gaming buddies and some are obviously 2nd hand and adecdotal. The ones where it's been friends of mine having the bad experiences directly were in the US and Canada. Considering this is coming third or fourth hand or more to you, on an internet forum and I'm hesitant to give out details and locations (some of this stuff involves people getting fired, shouting matches, accusations and other nasty stuff that I have no right to air on a message board), take it all as internet forum anecdotes without proof. People are free to dismiss my criticisms if they feel it doesn't line up with what they've experienced or heard. What I want least is for the details of a lot of these private matters to be made public without the consent of all parties involved. I won't do that, so don't ask.

Everyone can buy whatever they want, for me though, it's become a matter of conscious. I understand if it's not that for other people. As I stated before, it could be that I've a happened upon an unlikely chain of isolated incidences of bad local managers, misunderstandings etc., and that I've got it all wrong. Either way though, everyone can make up their own mind and get what they see as good value for their money.

And I really love Bloodbowl. It's my favourite game ever made. There's a lot of quality stuff to be found in GW's Specialist Games range (even if I do use other company's minis for their games).

Yellacanary,

"Gripping beast does deals where you pay the same money and get about 60-80 models in metal although there is going to be pose repetition."

Comparison works better when you get your facts straight.

Gripping Beast infantry goes for 1 GBP each generally. The battlepack deals are better, e.g. the Ancient Celt Foot - 96 figures (all unique) for 76.50 GBP (that's under 80p per figure).

But this isn't really such a good comparison anyway. GW's rank'n'file boxes are actually relatively good deals (assuming the material does not have intrinsic value to you) and there indeed ARE "good guys" who sell their stuff fore more (and never get criticized for it, go figure...) It's the special stuff where GW jumps above the rest - the compulsory HQ figures, the specialists you need for your army to be effective etc.

Others generally don't have "power pricing", so their commander figures typically cost pretty much the same as grunts.

Maxxon, you hit on a point that I dislike about GW. You MUST have the specialist figures. Now, do they cost more to produce? Well, maybe the sculpts are slightly better, so increase the sculpting fee... ...but that does not result in a quadruppling of the price! Or at least it should not. The material might cost more; that is a more legitimate price increase. But when we are talking about similar materials, similar sizes, and close qaulity in sculpt, radically differen pricing is almost predatory. That is a major reason that I dislike GW. So, as long as they are following that model (and for any company that follows that model) I will avoid their figures. Just because a space marine has a cloak and a sword does not mean that he should be 4 times the cost of one holding a bolter. Greenstuff is not that expensive and neither is scultping talent.

It is just crappy treatement for customers. And I refuse such treatment. It would be like paying $20,000 for a regular F-150 and $40,000 for one with leater seats. Sure, there might be a small increase for leather, but not DOUBLE or more!

"I want to make a comment about something I saw in here, and in an odd way it indirectly relates to the main discussion:

- - go watch the documentary SUPERSIZE ME and then see if you still want to eat at McDeath's. ;p - -

Actually, that documentary can be accused of many of the same sins as Micheal Moore's stuff. It had a point to make, and made it. If it didn't, it wouldn't be sold."

"Thought,"

let me answer this matter on this particular forum just this once. And let me establish once and for all that I am anything but a "bleeding heart liberal." I am the son of a lifelong Republican WW2 USMC veteran whose values and views I share. I am a registered NON-PARTISAN voter. I have voted for both Republican, Democratic, and independent candidates for a constellation of offices and issues, and I vote in every election, local, state, and national.

That said, I have never once watched a documentary that didn't try to make a point. Nature of the beast. That said, Moore asked more than a few pointed, important questions in his documentaries that are extremely embarrassing to some very powerful, corporate entities and their highly partisan and blatantly disingenuous and venal supporters and highly vocal champions. Many very vocal people do not appreciate this -clearly because their cherished dogmas and/or exhorbitant profits are being challenged.

That's my take on the subject, and until sufficient empirical evidence is presented to convince me otherwise, the well-funded pundits of the Corporate (Quack) Right will no more convince me than the silly PC crowd of the New Age (Quack) Left of the American body politic will convince me that Moore's work is the Holy Grail of political science.

"The experiment was unscientific, and uncontrolled, the results purely anectodal."

In the strictest sense of the Scientific Method, you are correct. Even so, the severely detrimental health effects directly resulting from a diet high in saturated fats, hydrogenated and partially hydrogineated oils, high fructose corn syrup -which seems to be used to spike more processed foods on a daily basis-, are well and thoroughly documented, as surely as the adverse health effects of smoking, over-consumption of alcohol, and the use and abuse of many other substances.

"Apparently after seeing it, another person performed the exact same experiment, he however had been eating McD's for a long time. Guess what, he didn't have any of the nasty side effects the guy in Supersize Me did."

Yup. And I remember how my Anatomy and Physiology proffessor in college explained that everyone has a family story of a relative who smoked two packs a day, ate a high fat and high calorie diet, didn't exercise, never gained an ounce, never got sick, and lived to be 100 years old. This is genetics.

The majority of us do not have such Godzilla genes, but must use better judgement in our eating habits.

"Why? Could be many things.

A couple I can think of are:

Could have been psychosomatic. The guy in Supersize Me wanted to prove that the food was bad, and so he beleived it was bad, and he got sick, because he wanted to.

Could have been a shock to his system. The guy in Supersize Me exercised and ate well, and then suddenly stopped exercising and started eating McD all the time, and this freaked out his system. Meanwhile the other guy, who was more 'normal' didn't have the radical shift.

Or it could simply be another case of YMMV."

Yes, there are always variables. If you took SUPERSIZE ME as your sole basis for judgement, I would argue that you are *not* educating yourself properly. If you take it along with a reasonable amount of additional information on nutrition and exercise, I would argue that you have made a reasonable effort to educate yourself.

"Me, I could probably eat McD every day and not risk death."

Perhaps. I suspect that you're dead wrong here given the terrific amount of data that points to the less-than-beneficial effects of eating such overly processed, spiked-with-sugar, fried-in-hydrogenated-oils excuses for food found in fast food restaurants. Certainly if you're active physically, have a healthy family background lacking any history of congenital disorders, heart problems, hypertension, et al., you're odds of avoiding detrimental health effects from such a diet are lower than average, but otherwise if you're not one of the genetically lucky minority, more likely you'll very quickly find yourself another victim of the obesity pandemic affecting the American people in increasing numbers.

"My diet overall though probably isn't much better than eating McD all the time, so it wouldn't be a big shift, just boring."

Again, it sounds to me given the extremely limited data you've provided that you are part of a genetic minority of people who are resistant to the health effects of a high-fat, high-sugar, low fibre diet. Unfortunately most of the rest of humanity cannot on the evidence tolerate such fare without serious long term and highly detrimental health effects.

I for one do not eat *any* fast food, as doing so on a weekly basis directly contributed to a near fatal illness that I am only now just recovering from after over two years, 63 days in a hospital, two major abdominal proceedures, and a myriad of other unpleasantries associated with this experience. Personal bias? Damn right, and I've the scars to prove it.

Do I blame the fast-food chains for my illness? Not precisely. I *do* accept the idea that the CEOs and their sycophantic minions at the corporate level knew that the long-term health effects of the food they're serving our children will have serious health risks associated with them, but being good corporatists, they cannot allow that unpleasant fact interfere with their company's stock value.
I also accept my own responsibility for being in denial, eating my stress, and fuelling my depression over the death of my last surviving blood family member (Mom), and eating myself into an ICU bed.

Did I eat it every day? No. But the concensus was and remains that my consumption of a high-fat, high-fructose, low fibre diet was the straw that broke this camel's health's back.

Just like no sensible person leaves their political education to a single documentary, no one IMO should leave the maintenance of their health to a single documentary. Rather, if the arguement looks good, INVESTIGATE IT FURTHER.

Now, can we kindly get the Hell back to the discussion of miniatures gaming?

Thanks. ;)

Leland R. Erickson
(HisEvilSelf-Minus-22-Inches-of-Intestine)

This has to be the coolest Anti/Pro GW thread ever! For my health, I'll never eat GW again! Nor will I ever buy those horribly overpriced miniatures from that bloated corporate entity we call McDonalds! Take that GW/McDonalds!

Although I have absolutely no interest in GW or its products (and never have), I must say I've learned a lot by reading all these posts, and have found it all very entertaining and interesting.

Quite frankly, I'm surprised there is as much hatred and criticism of GW as is stated and surmised, as so many (far, far too many) posts on TMP have to do with GW products. I'm thinking that GW must appeal mostly to teenagers and those in their 20s (as well as a few adults with a disposable income, who probably have far, far too many games and miniatures in their possession, as they obsessively continue to keep buying new stuff when it comes out; or who are in some way linked to GW).

As far as why I never liked Games Workshop, quite frankly, I don't like their style. With the exception of the current LOTR line, I especially don't like their miniature designs or their gaming concepts and products. GW is too obviously trendy (once again, appealing to the younger generation and, at the same time, imposing a standard upon them); and, considering the fantasy and futuristic aspects of gaming and miniature usage, I don't think this hobby should be limited to current trends in anything, as current trends limit imagination and creativity, not progress it. Just because something is new and modern, does not make it better; classic quality can never be improved, only changed and done differently.

But I have also noticed that GW has become somewhat of a corporate monopoly, much the same way the original TSR had become in the early 1980s. TSR got a great deal of backlash back then, for many reasons, and their miniature division was absolute crap (and we all know what happened to that in a couple years time). But back then there was a great deal more competition and band-wagon jumpers, than there are today; and it's lack of competition at the right time that creates a monopoly.

Even though I will probably never buy a GW product, I am still thankful that they exist, as they maintain the hobby of miniatures and gaming, bringing both to the mainstream and introducing both to a new generation.

"Now, can we kindly get the Hell back to the discussion of miniatures gaming?"

No.

- - - -

"But I have also noticed that GW has become somewhat of a corporate monopoly, much the same way the original TSR had become in the early 1980s. TSR got a great deal of backlash back then, for many reasons, and their miniature division was absolute crap (and we all know what happened to that in a couple years time)"

I heard a rumour that the current CEO of GW was the CEO of TSR when it went to pot.

If so...

Wow, this has got to be the coolest thread EVER; it's almost become, like, uh, philosophy or something...

I don;t understand how people get so het up about GW but it sure does make TMP an amusing read.

The one thing I really disagree with is where people here often claim GW sustains the whole hobby and without it we'd have to go back to playing with Airfix 1/72 plastics. This is dross - no-one anywhere I've ever played with whose interest was historical would ever dream of playing GW and conversely the GW kids (and they are always kids) have zero interest in anything else nor ever develop one. One day their balls drop and you never see their spotty mugs again.

Liking GW or disliking them is a pretty subjective decision. For my 2/d worth - I think they do actually suck because:

1) Way, way, way, way to expensive. Their prices are just absurd compared to other genres of gaming.

2) Juvenile, nonsensical background, silly names, skulls and, like, rilly big gunz!

3) White Dwarf. What is this garbage and who are these troglodytes who staff it? I'm sure White Dwarf's requirements are behind the constant upgrading of everything, otherwise they'd have an empty mag every month.

4) The constant upgrading of everything.

5) And the rules are too complicated with every other figure having some sort of comlicated opt-out of the core rules. Who the hell has the time to keep up to speed with all this? It's more time consuming than trying to follow professional sports.

What is there to like about GW games for grown adults? Kids like it but kids like all kinds of stupid things because they are kids.

There you go, and that's coming from someone whose only ever played 40k a handful of times.

And I think I've contradicted myself by getting het up about this. GW rants are much easier to get into than their games, that's for sure.

"5) And the rules are too complicated with every other figure having some sort of comlicated opt-out of the core rules. Who the hell has the time to keep up to speed with all this? It's more time consuming than trying to follow professional sports."

Well! Apparently *you* haven't been buying a " Newly Updated " codex/army book every 4 months to keep your army *Official* ....!

"This has to be the coolest Anti/Pro GW thread ever! For my health, I'll never eat GW again! Nor will I ever buy those horribly overpriced miniatures from that bloated corporate entity we call McDonalds! Take that GW/McDonalds!"

ROFLMAO!!! ;)

Leland R. Erickson
(who always appreciates a good, solid critical wit!)

"All you guys whinning about GW must not have a clue on business. GW may be in your narrow minds ripping people off and screwing old customers but the bottom line is that GW knows how to market. They do a good job and also know the business."

But if they DO screw older customers, are we not entitled to have an opinion about that? Or does having an opinion makes us narrow minded? Hardly. And for the record, stating the obvious and making rude blanket statements doesn't exactly mean your IQ is off the scale either.

Here's what you (in your infinite wisdom) and many others simply fail to understand: the people who have the most and worst things to say about GW are the ones who saw and experienced firsthand their shift from a friendly gaming company to a megaconglomerate multinational marketing phenomenon. We got into GW products when they were a nice company to deal with, who didn't regularly alienate their VERY LOYAL customer base with 'mass marketing' maneuvers.

It's always interesting to see posts from folks who have no knowledge of GW's history. They look at modern day GW and say things like "You're just jealous because they're successful", "Why hate them, they're here to make money". They draw comparisons between GW and other ruthless big-money companies, who make GW look like the March of Dimes by comparison.

And why shouldn't they? After all GW's a reigning giant of the miniatures gaming industry, why shouldn't they engage in the tactics they do? Simple:

Gamers are a small demographic who support a niche market, and they're used to being treated differently than the guy who wanders into a Ford dealership to buy a pickup. And since it's a niche market with a small (yet fiercely devoted and very choosy) demographic, most companies treat their customers (and potential customers) with respect.

GW doesn't. In fact, veteran customers have been treated WORSE than new customers for one simple reason: new customers still have armies to buy and build, whereas older customers already have their armies and aside from the odd squad or vehicle here and there won't be spending a lot of money on GW stuff.

Even if GW hadn't started as a nicer company and grown in the the lecherous cancer it is today, it still would grate against many gamers simply because their approach is so different, so distant. Add in the history GW has with many people and you have a recipe for discontent.

The reason there is so much 'hate' against GW is because they've been around a long time and had years to build a sizeable customer base, then they switched gears and lost a lot of those customers. Now they're reaping the rewards of their clinically-engineered marketing strategies, for good and ill.

Smedley

I was talking to the owner of my local shop and he told me some of the grief GW have given him.

Years ago when they wrapped up the Marauder Miniatures range, he still had a lot, and they offered to take them back and reimburse him for their value. They took 4000 blisters off him, and then paid him 10 pence for each one. What a swindle! I don't know if he sorted it out, but there was an ongoing row with GW over that for some time, he was livid.

Ah, just throw my 2p worth into the McD's side of things.

Firstly, , I thought it was common knowlage that Burgers and other fatty foods made you FAT if eaten in excess (and in this case dumb).

At the end of the day, If you eat to much of something and wonder why you dont feel so well, STOP EATING the damn stuff and stop being so Thick.

Maybee McD's should sue the persons paerants for not educating their kids on healy eating.

Ah, but GW does the slash-N-burn marketing ploy. Once they sell their wares to a group, they move on to a younger demographic and teh cycle begins again.

They can make great games (Space Hulk), they can make good looking minis (My beloved Guardsmen of teh RT era and Valhallans),but GW keeps alienating their customer base (burn) and move on tot eh younger demographic (slash).

Marc

Veggie,

Though it would be a bit of hijacking to respond, the point about McDonald's liability is not that adults don't know that it is fattening. It is that it is aggressively marketed to kids in a way that gets those kids to engage in unhealthy behavior.

Good lord, does this thread still have legs?? Ladies and gentlemen, it's time to stop feeding the troll.

Norscaman, lol, just because the name is Veggie dont mean im a veggie, I love Meat, MMMMmmmm Saussage ;)

It stems from the fact i used to work in a prodjuce departement in a supermarket many years ago, just that ive kept the name ever since going online around 97.

Even if McD's Target their food at kid's, shouldent Pareants take the responsibility for allowing their kids to get FAT and not take care of them,For me its more a case of Parental NEGLECT.

Same as some suing McD's because their coffee was HOT and the burnt herself, bet she'd be the first to complain if the coffee was cold.

Veggie, you got your facts wrong. I am going to assume that you are a brit for the sake of hijacking this thread. The coffee case you are suing about involved a cup of coffee that was 202 degrees farenheit. That is nearly boiling. She had third degree burns when the lid popped off the coffee because it was insecurely placed on the cup. That is a standard product's liability theory and England has exactly the same theory; though I'll bet not as many drive-throughs.

I buy your point about the parents. But England and the U.S. have the same tort laws. All of our laws are based on English law. Heck, Maine still has all of the Norman forms of property if you can believe it!

I am a lawyer here in the U.S.

But back to GW... ...will it top 200???

Gentlemen, this topic is veering into politics - please adjourn the political discussions to the CA board...

I have played 40K off and on for 16+ years now and I can tell you why I hate GW and why I repect them too. I hate them because a number of my figures that collectively I spent a small fortune on are now completely useless. I have figs going all the way back to the Rogue Trader days. Heck, all my figures for 40K they no longer make anymore. I'm an Ork player, and the best days, the days I would absolutely crush my foes was with the 'Ere we go! rules and army lists. That was back before they even had rules for mobs of vehicles and dreadnaughts but I fielded them that way because it simply made sense. Back in the day, my Ork hoard peaked at 6000 points. Then came second edition, and a third of my army was completely useless. The rules for them no longer existed. Things kept on changing until finally I gave up. Now with the fourth edition rules, the fiction finally matches how Orks actually play in the game. I am finding out that a Kult of Speed army can be quite deadly. Shaggrudd Dethblasta is coming out of retirement.
I must say that I have to respect them as well. GW knows who to cater to. The game seems a little simplified and kiddish? When was the last time you went to a Games Day? I'll never forget going to the one up by Chicago and there were more kids at Games Day than there was at the Transformers convention in the next hall. GW knows the future of their company lies with the kiddies. Just like the cigarette companies, get em hooked early and keep em addicted so later on they'll write letters to message boards complaining about their once great army. They also know who to target as well, the parents. Why? So the parents will pull out that credit card to make JR happy whenever he wants that new space marine army he doesn't have a prayer in skill to paint. But that's ok, GW offers painting classes every week for the new gamer. Did I just hear a cash register drawer just open?

"Gentlemen, this topic is veering into politics - please adjourn the political discussions to the CA board..."

Amen, Brother Bill, amen...! :)

Leland R. Erickson

What is with all those spikes and skulls? Sheesh, a man or beast cannot move without spikes and skulls encrusted on their unforms / armor. Is that why the price hikes are there because of the extra material needed to add on all those spikes and skulls? That being said:

LONG LIVE THE EMPORER'S POINTY STICKS!!!!!!!!!!

if you don't like spikes and skulls then stop looking at the models encrusted with them!

Eldar, Tau, and much of the imperial guard range are free of all these commonly complained about gw design problems . Even the basic tactical marines are pretty much skull/spike free .All it takes is for more 'hard' sci fi gamers to see one chaos army and they have this fit, and denounce all gw product as covered in skulls and spikes, when in fact the opposite is true . The only armies bedecked in such a manner are the ones who are to be 'evil' . while this might be a tad shallow of gw, it is not a problem with their entire range .

If you wants to hate them over their taste in sculpts, at least do it cos they take masterpieces and replace them with mediocre junk .

One more thing that I hate GW about: they quit printing non warhammer games. like kings and things and the 2nd edition talisman. I loved those games.

Even the basic tactical marines are pretty much skull/spike free

True, true... now we're into the field of purity seal proliferation. I'd buy the old Beakies in a heartbeat, even with those wierd bumps on their shoulderpads. And I do have to say that I like the Cadian sculpts; it's easy enough to trim off the half-dozen Imperial Eagles from their various pieces of equipment.

thats one of the weird things about gw . how ever infinitely more detailed, and technically superior new kits are to old, i find myself hankering for the old beakies, skeletons, hell-even the squats thos models had soul and character to them .

good point about the purity seals though .

Tim M wrote..."No way Tim O is toast, I'll kick his butt! No, wait, I'll kick the butt of his metal pumpkin heads!!!

There take that!"

In addition to the pumpkin head thing, I've noticed a new trend in GW figure design. The legs seem to be getting even shorter and the hand MUCH bigger. The plastic dwarves are the worst offenders in the giant hands department. The Catachan (sp?) fighters have giant torso and very tiny little legs.

I don't mind consistent over-sized details/bits, but when only some of the model's bits are over-sized it's pretty bizarre (we're talking wargame minis here, not the other kind of "models" with over-sized bits).

Curse you Tim M! Ever since you mentioned the pumpkin head thing, I can't stop noticing! Latest issue of WD had some figures with really odd proportions (Skavens seem to have lost their legs like the GW dwarves).

Tim O

"You MUST have the specialist figures. Now, do they cost more to produce? Well, maybe the sculpts are slightly better, so increase the sculpting fee... ...but that does not result in a quadruppling of the price! Or at least it should not. The material might cost more; that is a more legitimate price increase. But when we are talking about similar materials, similar sizes, and close qaulity in sculpt, radically differen pricing is almost predatory."

Actually, the increased pricing for specialty figures can be justified. Assume you are building an ACW army. When you are building that army you will have many many infantrymen. In fact, many of those figures will be used over and over again. You may have 100 copies of any given infantry figure.

But then you want a Robert E. Lee figure to command the whole thing. You are going to purchase only 1 Robert E. Lee figure, not 20, 30 or a hundredd. In fact a unit of Robert E. Lee figures would look downright silly - unless you are into clones.

From the manufacturers standpoint, that Robert E. Lee figure is not particularly profitable. Most ACW gamers will have one Robert E. Lee figure in their army - two if they have a real fixatio with Robert E. Lee.

Paying for the sculpts and molds for Joe the Infantryman is more likely to be profitable, because the gamer may have tens or hundreds of those.

So it is only reasonable to expect to pay more for the Robert E. Lee figure than the Joe the Infantryman figure.

"if you don't like spikes and skulls then stop looking at the models encrusted with them!"

True but it is a little difficult when it get massive exposure.

"All it takes is for more 'hard' sci fi gamers to see one chaos army and they have this fit..."

Incorrect as I am primarily an historical gamer, I do get to see spikes and skulls just not nearrly as much. Also, I did not throw a "fit" as you say. I merely commented / lamented what I perceived to be overdone and uncessary.

" and denounce all gw product as covered in skulls and spikes..."

All right, where exactly did I make this comment? Oh, also take into account I have Space Hulk, some Epic and 40K Marines, Genestealers , 'nids and Guardsmen (WHo, I might add have skulls as well.)) just to let you know. Please do not pigeonhole me.

" The only armies bedecked in such a manner are the ones who are to be 'evil' "

IN the 40K universe, what is termed "evil" is relative. Every faction has their "evil" side going. Yes, Chaos has more skulls and spikes, but in my opinion, it is overdone. Your opinion may differ and that's fine.

Regards,

Capt.

"Eldar, Tau, and much of the imperial guard range are free of all these commonly complained about gw design problems . Even the basic tactical marines are pretty much skull/spike free .All it takes is for more 'hard' sci fi gamers to see one chaos army and they have this fit, and denounce all gw product as covered in skulls and spikes, when in fact the opposite is true . The only armies bedecked in such a manner are the ones who are to be 'evil' . while this might be a tad shallow of gw, it is not a problem with their entire range."

1. Eldar: no skulls on the rank and file, but the "reapers" do have skull helmets.

2. Tau: I agree with you. On the whole, the only good range in 40K in my opinion, but I do kinda like the new terminators too for some odd reason (despite the skull on their shoulder plate).

3. Imperial Guard: Wrong again. Cadians have HUGE skulls on their guns and their helmets. Winged skulls in fact. Even the Imperial Eagle (I think that GW is now trying to trademark it as 'the Aguillar', though it has existed since the 1500s in Germany) would be far better than the winged skull.

4. Basic Tactical Marines are not free of them. The Tactical Marines each have a winged skull on their chest. And their bolters. The combat squad has a mix of skulls and other stuff on their chests, but again, ALWAYS on the guns. Not even Charlton Heston has skulls on his guns!

5. Chaos: Yes, they are ridiculous, but it does not cause me to have a fit. Instead, I say the Emperor's Prayer 5 times fast and I am fine. "Must buy new Codex, Must buy new Codex, must buy new Codex, must buy new Codex, must buy new Codex!"

6. Purity Seals: Whose purity are they guarding anyway???

reapers, are the one skull type thing in the whole army for eldar .

the skulls on the cadians are tiny!and the rest of the ig range is even more skull free . The Aquila is what they is calling the imperial eagle these days, think its latin for eagle, which is good as it puts 40k back in its pseudo historical base for the background .

i said the tac marines are pretty much skull free, the tac marines have a tiny skull on them that is normally obscured by their bolters.

they are guarding the genetic purity of mankind obviously .

my comments about skulls and spikes were not directed at anyone in particualar . It was just one of the weakest of the normally good anti-gw arguments that repeatedly comes up on theminiaturespage . The only that gets my back up more, is the folks who won't play it cos they don't think its family friendly as it has daemons in it . we play games based on killing people, daemons should be the least of our worries!

Wow... I hated noticed the "He-Man" problems with the IG until you guys pointed that out. I still like the Cadians, but I can see where the Catachans are getting too far out of proportion. One reason I used to love the RT-era IG plastics was the nice proportional sculpting.

link

Boy, here's a blast from the past:

link

Land Raiders for £6.99... 3 Rhinos to a box for £9.99... 30 Space Marines for £9.99... 8 metal Terminators for £9.99...

*sigh*

Of course, gas was about $1 USD a gallon then, too, and the Dow was at about 3,000, if I recall. But still, if I had a time-travelling DeLorean, I'd be heading back to 1989 to grab up some cheap GW plastics.

Worldshatterer, I have to disagree. The winged skulls on the Cadians helmets span the entire front of the helmet. The skulls on the marines are large for 28mm figures and it is clearly the focus of their chest plates. But that is not really my point. You actually said that all these lines were skull free, which is patently false. Each of the ranges (save the Tau and even Eldar, you are right they are "pretty much" skull free) you mentioned has at least 3-4 skulls on them. I hardly call that skull free.

But it raises another interesting thing. I think that the reason that you, and probably many don't see the skulls, is that they are now desensitized. Eventually, they are going to be walking, skull covered, freaks... ...well then they would be chaos marines. ;->

I am only here to note that I haven't participated in this bash GW thread. My moratorium on GW bashing/defending is still in place. I've been such a good boy, I think I'll trip on over to the Diner and have a slice of Belinda's Carrot Cake as a treat. Now, back to the regularly scheduled bashing/defending of GW.

DJ:
Of all the sanctimonious attitudes here on TMP! ;)
(It's a JOKE people, can't you tell a JOKE when you hear one?!)

DJ....join the thread...become one with the thread....there's nothing wrong with praising or not praising GW....join the thread... ;)

That is fine Captain, just for god's sake don't call 'im a "lad"! ;-)

"they are guarding the genetic purity of mankind obviously"

Ah-ha!

So THEY are the ones behind the disappearance of the squats and b-troopers!

Who's next? Ratlings or Ogryns?

There was a time... long long ago... of guardsmen with bolters, guardsmen using Rhinos as transport... a time of RT guardsmen with those skinny lasguns....

*sigh*

I love GW products but I cannot afford them. The armies I collected I was slow to add units to. My competition could afford to field any combination of units in any quantity. A guy with more money to throw at the hobby could afford more tactical choices. I found myself losing frequently because my opponents knew my miniature collection like the back of their hand.

There was one guy I gamed with that could field three marine Devestator squads. On his shelf he had 12 of each heavy weapon type. I had one marine Devestator squad and it stayed the same for every game.

This is the topic thaat just won't DIE!

Yeah, we're shooting for the 200 mark. I wonder what the longest thread ever on TMP was.

"I love GW products but I cannot afford them. The armies I collected I was slow to add units to. My competition could afford to field any combination of units in any quantity. A guy with more money to throw at the hobby could afford more tactical choices. I found myself losing frequently because my opponents knew my miniature collection like the back of their hand. "

Dragon Gunner,

so, your opponents praticed Sun Tzu's principle of "Know your enemy as you know yourself, and in 100 battles you will not be imperiled." I suggest that you *not* despair, but pick up a good translation of Sun Tzu's ART OF WAR. Then, after you've assimilated its contents, go back and have another go at your opponents whose wallets exceed their hat sizes...;)

"There was one guy I gamed with that could field three marine Devestator squads. On his shelf he had 12 of each heavy weapon type. I had one marine Devestator squad and it stayed the same for every game."

Hmmm...sounds to me like either you a) needed to do some serious figure conversion work, or b) you had/have the misfortune to be playing with fanatics who cop the "If it ain't a GW mini you ain't playin' Warhammer!" attitude. The former *can* be addressed by common sense model conversion work, while the later...well, there's a reason I prefer to play with people -young and old alike- who understand that *sportsmanship* and *fun* are more important than having the latest model...but that's just me; I'm kinda strange that way...;)

Leland R. Erickson
(As Himself, Incorrigably Evil, and Glad of It!)

This is dross - no-one anywhere I've ever played with whose interest was historical would ever dream of playing GW and conversely the GW kids (and they are always kids) have zero interest in anything else nor ever develop one. One day their balls drop and you never see their spotty mugs again.

Not sure what gamers are like where you are at, but locally there is planty of cross-over. Some of the most hardcore local historical players are also the most hardcore GW gamers. Odd, but true. :-)

I'll take it to the 200 mark.

I remember a time when the Eldar Wraithlords were called Dreadnaughts and piloted by a living pilot. I can remember when shuriken catapults had the same range as boltguns.

What was the Space Marine chapter that was like all flaming skulls? The Legion of the Damned?

I guess I'll start page 5 now...

I remember a time when Whirlwinds were with the IG...

I think for many folks it is the same thing that turned my son off of the collectible card games. When he would go to the shop to play on Saturday, the shop would have a certain amount of kids with parents who were willing to spend big bucks on the kids. (Divorced parents vying for affection, yuppie parents dealing with guilt of not spending time with youngsters, etc. - -all the things you see in modern society, including kids who know how to play the parents for the things they want!) Anyway, the kid looks at the big, powerful high-priced cards and says, "Oooh, I just have to have these!" $50 USD to $150 USD later, the kid comes over and says, "Hi. Want to play?" Then he promptly trashes everyone at the table, NOT because he plays the game well, but because he has a powerhouse deck. My son got to the point where he only played sealed deck tournaments, where you have to "make do" with the cards that come in the original deck, and rely on your playing skills and luck to win.
I see similar analogies with FOW and the points system in some posts here at TMP. If the rules allow unlikely combinations of things that make a "killer army", then the big, bad escalation effect kicks in. Personally, I prefer to have armoured cars, light tanks, cruiser tanks, artillery, and infantry with Universal carriers for my Brits in the desert, and hope that we can keep Rommel at bay with a fairly historical representation of what was actually there. The win is much more satisfying when you know you have taken the somewhat poorly equipped army and used it to maximum effectiveness.