"GW hatred..." Topic

Big Fat Budda Butt, there are a lot of frothers here along with some hearsay and unsupported claims.

GW's business model seems to be similar to Starbucks. I don't drink Starbuck's probably for the same reasons people don't buy GW stuff.

And though GW's products are highly influenced by popular sub-culture Fantasy and Sci-Fi, they can be credited with growing the number of miniatures players from the early 80's to late 90's. Of course, had GW not been here I can't say the hobby wouldn't had grown. But I surmise, a GW like company would have been necessary.

GW has also nurtured a lot of talent that has gone on to produce other games and miniatures. Without GW, or a GW like company, I think a lot of the miniature's industry talent out there now would be doing something else.

I think GW also serves notice to other would-be companies as to what is possible. In the 90's, GW was pushing the State-of-the-Art for the miniatures industry. I suspect games such as Warzone, Wargods, and Warmachine wouldn't have come about had not GW shown there was a market for such. (I also believe, Warzone was an attempt to cut into 40k's market share. And I don't fault GW for defending the market they built up.)

Its been claimed that GW hurts the hobby. There is no hard evidence to that. In my experience people who get turned off GW mostly move into other miniatures arenas. People who leave the hobby ‘because of' GW mostly likely would have phased miniatures out anyway. I mean, one GW store in the mall probably adds more new hobbyists in a year than Thane's Games will add during its lifetime as a business.

t.w.

BTW, I currently only pick GW's LotR figures but really don't use any of their rule sets anymore. We are going to be playing 40k 2nd edition soon and I think I'll run some Slann. Team Frog has some great figures and I will be using those as Proxies. (Wow, I can play a GW game I enjoy even though it is no longer ‘supported' by the company.) I would play EPIC, but it really isn't their best set of rules. The current free version on their website is actually a much better version.

PatrickR said:
"I've never understood why GW being a "real business" justifies their prices ? If everybody followed the GW marketing strategy, home computers would so expensive that only the five richest kings of Europe would own them. You'd see about five cars in your lifetime and an average concert ticked would be $100. USD USD"

Patrick, man I WISH concerts tickets were only 100 bucks. In Vegas if you want to see Jimmy Buffets once a year concert at MGM Grand, you dish out a couple of grand, (and that's if there are tickets available).

I wanted to see Stevie Nicks a few years back, but didn't have the umph to cough up 325 for standing room ticket.

100 bucks!?..oh yeah...

Well I vote with my $ - I'm off to the FLGS right now to buy GW stuff.

GW has not tried to put them out of business - they opened quite far away but in the same city and will open their second store also far away but in the same city.

The people I know at GW do not have horns or tails and don't eat babies (although they do eat mall foodcourt food quite often). They know where I buy my stuff and they still talk to me and let me play in the store and some of them even come and play other games from time to time (although we all know they don't have fun doing it – of course).

Oh and just for the record I use Microsoft, eat at McDonald's and if I drank coffee I would go to Starbuck's.

PJ

I have pretty much stopped buying GW at their current prices. $50 USD for plastic terminators is a joke. Come on they are plastic. Give me Artizan Designs, Give me Warmachine (Great game by the way), Give me Crocodile Games.

I really am having a hard time figuring out where these kids are getting their money to by GW stuff, if it is not from their parents.

The only thing that I find good about GW right now is the 2nd hand market. You can find some really good deals out there rather than buying new. Lots of people are unloading their unwanted figures.

I have to say that were it not for GW I would not have become a wargamer. Gw operates succesfull business modle using established marketing principles. They have a proffesional organisation and support their customer base by providing a total package of paints, painting instructions, figures and a fantasy background.

I have mixed feelings about GW. Some of their figures I like and I think that many of their games have sound mecanisms. I do feel that teh games suffer from an overload of special rules. I stopped playing 40K because there were to many list specific rules.

Its their marketing tactics and policies that tick me off.
GW ,like many other business do seem to incorporate for planned obsolecence. The rules are changed every four to five years this necessitating that you shell out £40.00 GBP for a rule book for a handfull of often minor rule changes ( If you compare the past three editions of Warhammer Fantasy Battle you will find thats whats happend.) To sell their latest range, they market them as the a killer army . 4 years later GW makes the announcment that the armies are imbalanced ( hardly a revelatioon when that was the intention)thus compelling you to pay again for the same product.

I believe that in marketing speech its called "Churning"

Mainly because GW has a reputation for sysetmatically screwing over their older customers for years, much of which can be seen in the direction 40k has taken over the last decade or so.

It's hard to explain to younger/newer customers, people who've been into their respective GW games for maybe 3 or 4 years. As far as they know GW has been the same company all that time - sure their prices are a bit high, and *some* of the rules changes/updates are a pain in the neck, but other than that it's a good game and fun to play.

Veteran gamers knew a different GW once, a company that didn't change the scope and content of their game on a monthly basis in order to target a more lucrative demographic, a company that didn't burn bridges to ensure better market share. Older 40k players have witnessed the background of their game change completely and inexorably, often without any more reason than the convenient excuse to release some new model. They've watched as local game store owners, close friends whose shops helped support the industry and further people's interest by providing non-biased avenues for play and objective pricing, have either closed their doors because of how badly they got screwed by GW (seen that happen twice, not pretty).

I even remember when GW stores used to actually be GAME stores, where you could come in and play anything despite the heavy leaning towards GW products. You could play your Space Marine army composed entirely of green army men with little smurf hats (seen that one too), and as long as you obviously put some effort into giving the army some character it was cool. They didn't get down on people for talking about other games, especially other miniatures games. This was partly due to the fact that GW still lacked models for many of the vehicles they had rules for, so people had to use converted toys, military models and components from other ranges as stand-ins (remember Genestealer Cults, anybody? Who still has their converted Patriarch limo?)

GW has simply fallen too far for many of us to ever turn back. Everything else - the prices and price hikes, rules changes/additions/deletions, re-release of new models and subsequent 'phasing out' of older versions - just serves to further aggrivate people who've already written GW off (or support people's reasons for turning their backs on GW).

Smedley

We really need Bill to do a tally and see how many GW-related threads break the 100-post mark. I bet it'd be a pretty high percentage, if we excluded the CA board threads.

"eat at McDonald's "

PJ,

go watch the documentary SUPERSIZE ME and then see if you still want to eat at McDeath's. ;p

GW? Whatever!! LOL!! ;)

Leland R. Erickson
(Himself! Bwahahaahaaa!!!)

Pedantic point from a diabetic:

There's a guy who's duplicating the Supersize Me experiment, only he's drinking diet sodas. He claims that he's as healthy as he's ever been.

This doesn't surprise me. If you look at your standard Coke or Pepsi can, you'd notice that it's the equivalent of a dessert - without any of the chaff to slow down the absorbtion of the corn syrup. These are not reasonable things to be drinking as a beverage.

One more time - second verse same as the first - - I wonder what your beloved Perry twins would have to say about all this. You know, they are very major players in your so called "evil empire" . In fact their beautiful sculpts (I own hundreds and love them) exist because they were allowed to develop and hone their skills while making a fortune (which I am very happy for them) while helping build the "eveil empire".

Bringing up the Perry brothers is not a point in GW's favor, dude. The Perrys sell their niche-market figs for half (or less) of what GW charges. It should be the other way around.

And is, if you look at HeroScape. $2/model, and pre-painted, too.

Let's put our thinking caps on here - this is no slam against the Perrys as I stated I have many of their figures. Think a minute - did you read my first post? Why do you think they can sell their beautiful "historicals" for "half or less" then GW and still pal around with stars in New Zealand?

Hmmmm, Games Workshop, Gotta love em. indeed so.

Why? well if it wernt for GW then i wouldnt be here pure and simple.

And this is coming from someone who started with Advanced Hero Quest back many years ago, then took probably 6-9 years out of the hobby (Other interests like Nightclubs came along) and now married with 2 kids, love the hobby again, been back for 1 1/2 years.

What i will say is the culture shock after walking into a GW store for the first time in said 6-9 years and not seeing things that I remembered as wanting. Man-O-War, Blood Bowl, Battle Fleet Gothic and Epic. Now I know that Blood Bowl and BFG are available from their "Specialist" service and now Epic is back (?), but its not the point. Why? is it to do with shop space?

My only real gripe is PLASTIC/PRICE and I dont even have to say any more.

But at the end of the day im still a 100% fanboy and untill Their prices rise 50% than my wages rise then ill always be a fanboy.

For you new GW fans who never saw their stuff from 10 years ago I suggest you get your hands on copies of WD, Issue NO's of about 100-130 should do it.

I would like to add to sixthlancers comments about the Perry's - and I am not slamming them. Perry's make the majority of their money off their work for GW. Their historical sculpts - if you look close enough to the Wargames illustrated stories and articles are basically sculpts that they do for their own games and gaming interested. Their historical sculpts are not their bread and butter, because if they were, they would have created a better distribution system of their miniatures - as the demand is there but the Perry's themselves limit the distirbution of their figures.

I look at it this way, if the Perry's are going to do Napoleonics, I don't see them buying anyone elses Napoleonics. I have yet to see a figure from another manufacturer in a photo shot of the Perry's personal gaming table filled with what else - Perry miniatures. We are able to buy Perry figures because the Perry Twin love two things - sculpting and historical miniature gaming.

I've always thought that miniature gaming was best executed on a cottage industry/labour of love level. Where the owners of the company are interested in producing the best thing they can and are even willing to have a day job to make it work. I think the Perry's historical lines are a great example - their GW jobs are their day jobs and they produce their own historical stuff out of a passion to make great figures and a love for the era. My favorite rules sets are the smaller press ones (and even the free ones) and I love the ideas and support that games designers who are desining for their own enjoyment produce. No need to feed the mega-beast to have a good time with quality stuff.

Grunhornet said I really am having a hard time figuring out where these kids are getting their money to by GW stuff, if it is not from their parents."

I don't know, all I know is I haven't seen any kids outside of stores with signs saying, "Will sell internal organs for GW products." yet.

Lets think of it this way. Take CokeCola and Pepsi, now lets say Pepsi offered discounts to all stores to sell their product as long as they didn't sell CokeCola. And the stores accepted this deal. So then you go to buy CokeCola and every store you go to you only find Pepsi. Now yes, Pepsi can decide where to sell their product at, but where the hell would they get the rights to demand what independantly owned stores can stock?

That is what GW has been doing. Microsoft doesn't do this, you can go to a computer store and buy a MAC. McDonalds doesn't do this, you can go to a independantly family owned diner and get a better burger. But GW, oh yes. They like to keep competeing companies products off of the shelves next to their products in independant retailers.

Thier prices suck... however, the same can be said of all miniatures out of the UK. Miniatures from Germany and France aren't nearly as bad (though Rackham is close). So, I really don't hold that against GW. The fluff is, in my opinion, kinda cool. Some of it is goofy, but for the most part I like it. What I don't like about GW is the seeming disregard for thier customers.

As for FOW, I don't have a problem with beer & pretzel rules... but don't claim they are more than that

I and several others who still play GW games are angry at their apparent disrespect for their customers, largely to do with the shifting balance "codex by codex" and the complete ing of previously legit armies with new rules releases- or even between "codex"-es. GW got me into the hobby to an extent, but it was Legions of Steel that stopped me from giving up on it entirely, and Defiance: Vital Ground (and Majestic Twelve Games in general)that keeps it attractive and fresh.

Well recently I've been told about a new price rise, £15.00 GBP boxsets going up to £18.00 GBP They are just pushing it up time and again, even if they lose one customer in twenty they are still going to increase profit, they are just charging what the market will bear. Those boxsets, like the Warhammer Skeleton set were £10.00 GBP when they first were released and have jumped £10.00 GBP - £12.00 GBP - £15.00 GBP - £18.00 GBP So that's nearly doubled since they appeared abut 6 years ago, which is qquite a rise. This pricing code of theirs is obviously a diddle to make price increases easier. When they first did them, they were A-£3 B-£4 C/D-£5 E-£6 etc. I *knew* it then, it's was bloody obvious that they'd rigged it for an easy price change then. Whoah, you could have knocked me down with a feather six months later when everything from 'D' upwards went up a pound making it A-£3 B-£4 C-£5 D-£6 E-£7 - Explain that GW!

These plastic tanks of theirs, are definately a rip-off. £25.00 GBP for a small plastic tank? Companies like Italeri make accurate scale models of real vehicles which takes a lot more effort than to sculpt accurately to scale than a fictious model, yet Italeri tanks cost half the GW ones - Explain that GW!

And my last gripe, this fascination with re-releasing games. Warhammer 5th edition was not broken. It's another diddle to move everything along so to keep up you have to buy the new official rules and books. By they way, the quality of those has gone down too, where's all the army background and history and depth gone? The new 40K is over-simplified, in refining the game to make it more streamlined they've gone too far and it's gone the other way. eg. A bike isn't considered a vehicle, it now just gives a character 12" movement or something.

I haven't got the new edition of Warhammer. I have almost everything for the 5th Edition, I got almost every army book second hand, Warhammer and Magic, and it's great, it's just right. I refuse to budge, when my friend comes around, we play 5th edition. I'll play 5th ed with my girlfriend, and it'll be the game I'll play when one day I have children. :)

GW's motto - If it ain't broke, tell people it is and 'fix' it - Explain that GW!

What's funny is that people keep using other big businesses as examples of how GW has got it wrong. The reality is that other big companies in the "normal" business world do the same things that GW has been copying from them.

For example, Pepsi and Coke DO indeed force stores to sell only their products. When was the last time you went to a fast food restaurant and could choose between Pepsi *or* Coke? Not often. Seven Up *or* Sprite? Nope, different bottling companies.

How about going in to a car dealership that has 90 percent of it's vehicles being all from one company? How about companies that certify repair technicians to fix their product? Funny, years ago mechanics somehow managed to fix all kinds of cars without that certification. They probably did it by learning how to fix that stuff and if it was something they couldn't do, they sent the person on their way to another place.

I can get my Toyota minivan repaired by the dealership with special Toyota certified parts and mechanics for a whole lot more than I can get it fixed at the garage by the mall. I don't know if that garage has a special mechanic, but I know my car runs fine. Guess I have to take that chance if something goes wrong.

In truth Baronet Ratbone, it has been a while since I've been in a fast food restaurant. However any big chain restaurant like that makes a deal with those companies to sell only those softdrinks, that is not what I meant. I meant literally as if Pepsi could make such a deal to keep CokeCola out of stores like well, let's name a few Tops, Wegmans, Giant Eagle, Sheetz, Country Fair. Sorry if you guys across the pond (and since when is the Atlantic considered a pond?) don't have these stores, but it serves as examples.

Car deals are also another matter. If one or two brands of cars is all they service and sell, then that's it. Some times you can buy used cars from different companies from them, but most don't service them. These car dealers however buy their franchise from whatever car company they are selling. They are hardly independant.

Now if the dealer/store/retailer has ties to the company I can understand them only selling that companies products. However, most hobby stores are independantly owned. They have no ties to any one game company, unless they want to be one of GW's "Chapter Approved" stores.

It's easy to say if you don't like it go somewhere else. Well that ends up being the general problem as often there is no where else. I order my miniatures over the net or at my local comic book store that years ago sold GW stuff but because of the marketing practice dropped them.

I used to be able to go to a drugstore locally called Thrifty, and there were several other large chains. They were swallowed whole in the same manner you describe, by WalMart here in the US. Mom and pop stores have gone away. Just like when my parents were young and there were Five and Dime stores, that were eaten up by big supermarkets and department stores.

Used to be K-Mart was the power in the world of selling cheap. They died to WalMart because they failed to adapt. Just like old style business models with lots of heirarchy died when the leaner Japanese model showed itself to be more efficient.

Once people never moved out of their hometown and they worked for one company their entire life. That is also gone.

Change is part of life. You either adapt to the change or you die painfully (figurative death). You have to attempt to see past what is disliked about the change because it will cloud your ability to see your own future in the world of change.

Here is my take on this. All you guys whinning about GW must not have a clue on business. GW may be in your narrow minds ripping people off and screwing old customers but the bottom line is that GW knows how to market. They do a good job and also know the business. They know when things are goind sour and how to revive a product and make it better. You guys always want someting for nothing. I say to GW, Good work on makeing the market work for you. Now I dont carry GW and wont because it is not historical. Nothing like ganging up on someone who knows how to make it this market.

Uhm, I am really starting to like Thane, he said it all for me.

czarsguard, I think your take is as narrow minded as the one you criticise. It's good marketting that rips people off & screws old customers, not one or the other, but both. Also, we obviously don't want something for nothing - check out the past polls about how much people spend on miniatures. Good to know you consider your potential customers narrow minded, cheapo whiners.

And we should gang up on someone who knows how to make it in this market if we feel that their success is bad for the rest of the market. And we do this ganging up through purchasing alternate models (like the historicals you sell) and spreading the word that there may be cause to look elsewhere than GW.

No Nathaniel only . No one gets ripped off. No one is forced to buy the items. So if you dont like what GW does then go somewhere else and buy other items. I dont give a rat if you buy from me or not. If makes no difference. In fact I would rather have people who are dedicated to an product than someone who whines because the product does so well. Someone does good and knows how to market an item and you call them rip off artist.

And one last note. Who really gives a rats rearend anyway on this issue. They are still going to market and they are still going to sell. Every store I have been in run by the company is jammed on the weekends. People will buy what they want when they want and that is that!

I think a lot of people actually care about this sort of thing. Good evidence of that would be the number of posts topics like this get.

Things are starting to take their toll on GW though - just take a gander at the value of their stock and it's recent plunge. Even they say that sales are sluggish. Ofcourse, prices can be raised to increse overall revenue, but that drives a small percent of potential customers away. Then I guess they can raise prices again to compensate, but then... Anyway, I don't think elasticity is as much a factor in GW's case as other businesses, but it certainly has atleast some influence.

People will indeed buy what they want and when they want. I completely agree. Demand is part of the market - and consumer awareness is part of that demand. I think GW's marketting practices and the way they compete directly with their indenpendant retailers is a viable factor in determining whether or not *I* will contribute to the demand. I also think that others might be better off informed about possible alternative choices and related factors as discussed in this thread.

Overall I think it's been a good thread - a lot has been discussed honestly and it made it three pages before someone started with the personal attacks.

Nathaniel, you make a good point about there recent figures. IMHO, GW has made a huge error. They have mortgaged short term gains (price increases and nasty policies forcing more purchases) on future sales. Czarsguard, I think where you say 'it's just business', you are wrong. The most successful companies in the world are those that manage for long term value, not short term gain. Look at L.L. Bean. They had a return policy that said, 'if you are unstaisfied EVER with the product, return it.' I had a pair of boots that I used for about three months and hated them. I brought them back and they took them back, no questions asked, for cash. They have my business forever now.

GW, on the other hand, was a company that I used to love. I have a collection of their old dwarves and norsca barbarians. In fact, the first figure that I painted was a GW mini. Now, out of principle (and a dislike of much of their stuff) I don't buy from them. Their prices are ridiculous, but that does not limit me if I really like something. I would buy the Tau. I think that there minis are actually kinda cool. I won't though, because it is GW. When you can alienate a figure lover like me, you have screwed up. I use microsoft, I don't mind Starbucks all that much (though I usually prefer local), and once in a while that McDonald's burger tastes good (despite Supersize me). But, I actively avoid GW.
Business is based on loyalty, and they have lost a lot. Sure, they have cash and can make a profit on LOTR, but I think that they are headed to mediocrity. Soon, other companies offering a better product are going to equal GW. Warmachine, Aegyptus, VOID Urban War, and many others are cathing them. I can see it at my gamestore. I buy Copplestone, Warmachine, Aegyptus, VOID, VOID Urban War, Celtos, Confrontation, Gripping Beast, and Foundry, but not GW. Though in the interest of full disclosure, I might have to break my general rule for their expensive Elysians.

I give them credit when they do IMO good things but I dash them when they do IMO less than good things. Pricing. Retail store policies. Unbalancing rules systems. All things I personally disagree with.

I prefer to download their free rules and use other companies' minis :) It virtually guarantees I have someone to play against (Necromunda, BFG, Epic A (using old minis not the new ones), saves me money and helps support other companies like C-in-C, Mongoose and the Cold Navy folks.

As has been stated, the company isn't gonna changes its ways. Doesn't change the feelings about the situation but it's pretty much a given.

As a rule I think they are doing what it takes to keep profit margin up. I cannot blame them, I don't think any of the other companies will come close to the level that GW is, even with WWW they still dominate the mainstream market internationally for miniature wargaming. When is the last time you were in a gaming store that didn't carry GW, or exclusively carried another line? Are there any other big name gaming companies left from the 80's. TSR, GDW to mention a couple, Ikore, Target, these companies weren't snuffed out by GW, and GW is still here.
All this said I don't buy their stuff anymore, pricing principle, but alot of the other companies are working their prices up with their scale. Hm?

These are discretionary luxury goods and toys at that. To apply any adjectives that imply that the business practices of a successful firm operating in a legal fashion selling these luxury toys are somehow morally or ethically challenged is simply silly. Carried to the nth degree the practice of buying these luxury toys could be considered improper per se since an infinite variety of socially better spending is clearly available.

GW is no more of a rip-off or monopoly competitor than Hasbro, BMW or Gucci. They provide entertainment for those able to afford it and are no different than movie studios, golf courses or luxury car dealers and in return for that discretionary entertainment, attempt to collect whatever the market will bear.

I don't buy much GW stuff but if I'm willing to pay a GW price with my discretionary dollars, then the value is present for me.

They still mess customers around, what about customer satisfaction? Why on earth do they sell rule books/codexes up to 2 months before a re-release?

I do find the sucess of GW puts a dampener of everything else. It drives me nuts when people refuse to try out other systems or simply haven't heard of them, and those players, possibly encouraged by some of GWs policies, who throw a fit at the sign of using non-GW figures to play a GW game even in private. What is this elitist ?

You guys are funny.

I don't buy or do work on GW figures (I'm a historical wargamer) though I do play with my friends.

When Howard says "who throw a fit at the sign of using non-GW figures to play a GW game even in private. What is this elitist ?" what comes to my mind are similar attitudes of rules snobbery:

1) The disdain shown for PIquet, mostly by people who are demonstrably (by their posts) and woefully ignorant about the game;

2) The sort of shouting matches that erupt here over Flames of War

What do all these rules systems/organizations have in common?

Oh yeah, I forgot, they are wildly successful.

I'll go a bit further. For some reason or other, folks tend to feel a bit insecure if their favourite rule set is seen to be not as popular as the other sets.

Yup, it's called jealousy, mixed with an unhealthy portion of the perception of being part of the pack, mixed with equal proportions of the inant desire to be snobs in many of us. Whether that's a hold over of our experiences in public schools or not getting the girl we want for the high school dance, I don't know.

I can't understand why folks here and on other forums have to behave this way.

To apply any adjectives that imply that the business practices of a successful firm operating in a legal fashion selling these luxury toys are somehow morally or ethically challenged is simply silly

I'd say the opposite is true - if you're going to make something that humans don't really need, it should be made in the most ethical way possible. What's legal should be considered the bare minimum. Save operating at the bare minimum of ethical concerns for when the necessities of human life are at hand.

And I partially agree with your nth degree scenario - however I see hobby spending as something that contributes to my relaxation and well being which allows me to continue to contribue meaningfully to society with the rest of my time.

I don't buy much GW stuff but if I'm willing to pay a GW price with my discretionary dollars, then the value is present for me.

I completely agree. My point was though, that in all parts of life there are factors that contribute to our demand of certain things. This is no different with luxury products. If I feel a company has treated me or others poorly, it's my right (some might say duty) to take my money elsewhere. I definitely shouldn't just say "it's not an essential item, therefore ethical considerations don't matter." That would be irresponsibel of me.

"They still mess customers around, what about customer satisfaction? Why on earth do they sell rule books/codexes up to 2 months before a re-release?"

US GW's mail order incompetency was (still is?) pretty bad. Then UK m.o. went the same way. That's when they lost me as a frequent customer. The releasing of the same "newly updated" codex every year to keep your army "official" finally made me sick of the whole scam.

"I do find the sucess of GW puts a dampener of everything else. It drives me nuts when people refuse to try out other systems or simply haven't heard of them, and those players, possibly encouraged by some of GWs policies, who throw a fit at the sign of using non-GW figures to play a GW game even in private. What is this elitist ?"

These seem to be the same people who sneer at other game systems, usually with the flippant comment "Oh, that game plays just like WH40K" or "That's just a rip-off of 40K". I find them irritating.

Take note GW. There is an army of "Davids" out there designing better games than yours as we speak....

I hate it when a car company keeps selling last year's model of vehicle in spite of the new year's release. They should know that my neighbors won't be impressed by the old one. And since the new model features aren't all available on the old model, I can't drive it safely to car shows either.

"if you're going to make something that humans don't really need, it should be made in the most ethical way possible."

So is price of the item considered in terming something ethical? If so, then all those jewelers, artists, musicians working at night clubs, alcohol, a family selling a house (and let's say both parents have been laid off) etc must all be considered unethical.

These guys, including GW, are out to make the most of their talent and product. They will charge what the market will bear. If you think GW is being unethical, then one simply must regard mostly everything in our society today as unethical.

Here's a personal example. I've experienced a major job loss and drastic financial consequences have hit my family and young children as a result twice, so far in my life. Both times I had to move to find work and both times was faced with a bad downturn in the housing market. I had to salvage as much as I could, ie, what the market would give me, when I sold my house. Was the negotiating I did to that end unethical?

By what I'm reading of your definition of ethics, it was.

I honestly dont know what the fuss is about. GW is aimed at a younger market with what is called a disposable income. This covers youngsters with pocket money and young adults with healthy incomes and little to do in their spare time.

The price is a real issue for me but ebay allways has something going. You can nearly allways get a few bucks off the RRP.

I think the other problem is that some of the more traditional companies are staying that way. They refuse to change to open up to a new market. Thats all GW ever did, once upon a time it was about small numbers of figures and they have changed to large number of figures. They have changed from attracting the traditional wargamer to attracting the "new" wargamer.

They are probably the company singly most responsible for giving what was and in some ways still is a dying hobby a kiss of life.

Back to the price issue, when you look at other hobbies it isnt that expencive. Thats the problem, too many people compare their prices with other manufacturers but the truth is they havent competed with other manufacturers for such a long time, they are simply marketed to well.

What they are competing with now are other hobbies. I am thinking of Pokemon, Game Consoles, skate boards etc. When you look at the prices in those industries their prices suddenly become more tangeable.

A console game normall retails when a new release for about £30.00 GBP Thats two box sets, the consoles go for anything over £100.00 GBP at least. For parents its a more appealing option to buy their kids some plastic kits to put together, paint and then use in an army rather than a game that is played for a month untill it is completed etc and abandoned.

The fact is GW is keeping up with other market trends.

And the final issue about price is that GW arnt really that bad. £100.00 GBP gets you enough for an army, the same as it does with most other companies. Look at what you can get for £100.00 GBP with some of the other companies. Looking at orcs and goblins which I collect thats six box sets with ten pounds left over for a character or the best part of a war machine. Thats up to 120 minis albeit multi-pose plastic. I think Gripping beast does deals where you pay the same money and get about 60-80 models in metal although there is going to be pose repetition.

I will allways play GW because it is incredibly hassel free and simple. I dont have time to play long drawn out affairs so 40k and Fantasy allow me to have small two hour battles with most people including my girlfriend who doesnt wargame as a hobby and even she enjoys watching my greenskins run away!

I dont really buy or play GW games any more but....

They are a business.

If they charge more than the market will bear, they will stop selling figures.

If they keep "screwing over" customers then they will lose the customers.

Simple really. Their business model seems to be working so far. When it stops working they will change.

Luckily, in the meantime there are plenty of other games you can use your figures with.

So is price of the item considered in terming something ethical?

No. I have NO complaint about the way GW prices their stuff - they're free to choose whatever prices they want. I was speaking about their other practices. I completely agree with all the points you raised in your last post. There still are ethical considerations for marketting practices, directly competing with your independant retailers, wrongful dismissal cases, treating employees badly, poor customer service, etc., but hardly for price. My only gripe with GW's prices is that I think they are too high for what you get - that is a matter of opinion and percieved value and others obviously disagree. There are some cases where I almost disagree (the new Genestealers are nice enough to almost be worth buying at current prices).

Tim Marshall wrote: "Yup, it's called jealousy, mixed with an unhealthy portion of the perception of being part of the pack, mixed with equal proportions of the inant desire to be snobs in many of us...

I can't understand why folks here and on other forums have to behave this way."

I agree with Tim M. Sort of reminds of those snobs who go on ad naseum about figures not perfectly scaled down from actual human proportions. How many times do they need to go on about pumpkin heads?

This also reminds me of comments made by some TMP'ers along the lines, "if you don't like or buy X, why comment?" I mean really, just look at all the comments by those who 'don't buy or work on GW figures'.

Why must they comment?

Hmmm...

Tim

One thing I do like about GW: releasing their old second edition plastics in little cartoony boxes for cheaper than they were when they were first released. I can get old school plastic genestealers and termigants for quite cheap if I was so inclined. The same with plastic wizards, khorne berzerkers, etc.,. I think it's a great way to clear out old stock of old plastic sprues and give those of us who want them a taste of the old days in both model style and price.

The only thing that has kept me from buying them though, is how certain individuals I know have been treated while employees of GW.

This also reminds me of comments made by some TMP'ers along the lines, "if you don't like or buy X, why comment?"

In this case, I comment because I used to like GW. I used to buy their stuff a lot. Then I became a no longer satisfied customer over some service issues. Then I became aware of how some people I know where treated as employees. Then local stores took a big hit from a GW opening up a short ways away between two local stores after they took the risk of building up the fan base over a period of years. And a variety of other reasons that have been discussed to death in this thread.

Why must they comment?

I think in this case, a lot of us would like to see the leading miniature manufacturer be better. A lot of us do have complaints about a wide variety of issues. At the core of many of them though, are a desire to return to the days where we did enjoy GW's products. Or we'd like to see an impact on their sales sufficient to make them reconsider their current direction. Discussing stuff like this is part of being a responsible and informed consumer.

I don't hate GW. I have issues with a lot of GW's practices though. Enough that I can no longer buy their stuff in good conscious and sometimes see fit to let others know about it. Public opinion is part of the function of the market.

I can understand how the way employees I know were mistreated could have been the result of a bad local manager or something and not be indiciative of larger company practices. Or how independant retailers who carry GW are going into things with their eyes open - GW will open a local store and compete directly with you if you are successful. I understand their use of "flavour of the month" marketting. It drives sales and provides something new for those interested. However, every coin has two sides and the conclusion that *I* come to is that GW isn't a company that's going to get my business.

One thing I do like about GW: releasing their old second edition plastics in little cartoony boxes for cheaper than they were when they were first released. I can get old school plastic genestealers and termigants for quite cheap if I was so inclined.

You can? How? I wouldn't mind picking up some cheap plastics for my Stargrunt forces. Let us in on your secret, Nathaniel!

Local stores have them. I'm pretty sure any of their official independant stores can get them in. They're just 2nd edition plastic guys (and some fantasy) guys in a little box. Often they'll be mixed - termigants and genestealers together, khorne berzerkers and plaguemarines together, etc.,.

Nathaniel,

That was just some friendly razzing of Tim M. Not intended to be serious at all. As Tim M has stated many, many times he really dislikes Foundry-style figures. He has also pinged me on several occassions for what he's doing in this instance. Forgot to put the little smile-thingy in there. So much for my typing skills. Doh!

Tim O

I get the connection now. Sorry about misunderstanding.

Ah - are you in the UK, Nathaniel? Because I've never seen anything like that here in the US. My opinion of GW might be higher if I ever chanced to see a reasonably-priced fig.

One thing has struck me while I've been following this thread in stealth mode; the recurring use of the word "hate" to describe critics of GW, their policies, and business practices. Hate as I understand it (pardon my Psychology background from roiling up to the surface), is an irrational state of mind, an emotional reaction to something, not a rational thought process at all, and usually driven by fear.

By dismissing criticism of GW as "hate," and by dismissing critics of GW as "haters," it seems to me that those who would defend GW and its practices and policies have dismissed the critics and criticisms without having to directly address their concerns, without having to directly defend GW from the complaints.

From where I'm sitting, when someone dismisses criticism as "hate" without first directly addressing the complaint, and when one dismisses the critic as a mere "hater" rather than responding to their complaints in a constructive manner, one is *not* doing anything but lending greater credibility to the critics and their complaints.

I used to play GW games (WH40KRT, WHFB) many years ago. I stopped. Why? Prices. I get more bang for my gaming buck with other, more challenging and enjoyable games (Starguard! Stargrunt II, Silent Death, Full Thrust, Carnage!, numerous historicals) that require less money, remain essentially stable in format, and allow me to use what pleases me as an artist and doesn't artifically restrict me from tournament play. The artist in me especially takes issue with anyone who would presume to tell me what figures I can use to play a game, A GAME! ;)

Yes, GW has every right to do what they do. They are not as far as I know in violation of any US or EU laws, business, criminal, or otherwise. OK, fine. Do I ever plan to play their games/buy their figs? Highly doubtful.

Yes, I *do* own a Tau army; I'm an old anime fan. But I'll use them to suit my tastes in gaming, using the rules I enjoy. Sorry, I want my Tau to point their nasty-ass rifles downrange and blow the s*** out of someone with a single burst. Period.

But I also want them to do so without getting chopped by a spike-infested demon that better belongs in a fantasy setting. I like a "hard science" science fiction game generally, so psychics and demonic entities need not apply (Kzinti always welcome, though...Mrrroww!! Pffft!!!).

But that's just me. Eccentric, allegedly over-educated, artisticly obsessed, and always up to no good. And I refuse, just refuse to grow up. ;)

But don't ask me to blindly swallow "acceptable marketing hyperbole" as holy writ. Neither will I spend X-amount of dollars for a single boxed set of five plastic models when x-amount of dollars will get me an entire 1-ti-1 scale WW2 tank battalion with supports for WW2 in 20mm scale. Gee, let me think!! ;)

Leland R. Erickson
(HisEvilSelf)