"GW hatred..." Topic

I don't know why it is, but my regular gaming group has a real reluctance to house rules, and its not just for 40K, but for ANY game we play.

You have my condolences. I don't know how many wargames I've played over the years, but something like 90% of them could stand a little tweak. Primarily, it's because playtesting can't catch all the odd situations, and we as players want to see stuff added or fixed.

I'm also lucky in that my group trusts my rules judgement. I've GMed for years for them, and they know that I like my rules ultra-fair. (Obsessively so.) They also know that I'll admit when I'm wrong - they'll let me make the ruling in-game (to keep things flowing), knowing that we'll talk about it afterwards. I've been known to see reason in said situations.

To use a metaphore.... It's like having a dear friend or beloved relative whom you've had to totally give up on because of addiction or self destructive personality. Deep down, you still love that person but you can't reach them. Often, they get away with stupid behaviour or are even rewarded for it, which only makes it worse. They become more distant, callous and stupidly self-assured. You sometimes get so mad, you'd want to kill them yourself, if they weren't already doing such a good job of it.

I don't hate GW at all. In many ways, a business person, I admire and understand what they have done. They often frustrate me, even anger me. I feel that they have squandered a huge amount of good will and customer loyalty for short term gain.

What I really do despise is the sycophant culture that surrounds them. There is an adoring, obedient, servile core goup of fans that also seem to be "leading lights" in the so-called "GW Hobby". I'll avoid naming names because I'm sure some of these folks are at least occasional posters here at TMP. I wouldn't want to be accused of making "personal attacks" and get Dawghoused. If you care, just spend some time at some of the better known "unofficial" fan forums and these folks will soon stand out.

- - I remember reading that - he tried using the Clan War initiative system, the poor guy. It's not that you can't do psuedo-simultaneous movement in 40K (we've done it with the Great Rail Wars system), it's that Clan War's system is ponderous, and not one I'd recommend. - -

Ah, that puts a new light on things.

.

- - And in case you're wondering - the reason we're not using the GRW system is because it's got a practical upper force limit that's actually fewer units than a large 40K force org. - -

Really? How so?

.

- - You have my condolences. I don't know how many wargames I've played over the years, but something like 90% of them could stand a little tweak. Primarily, it's because playtesting can't catch all the odd situations, and we as players want to see stuff added or fixed. - -

Agreed. But for some reason my regular group is very resistant to that.

- - I'm also lucky in that my group trusts my rules judgement. I've GMed for years for them, and they know that I like my rules ultra-fair. (Obsessively so.) They also know that I'll admit when I'm wrong - they'll let me make the ruling in-game (to keep things flowing), knowing that we'll talk about it afterwards. I've been known to see reason in said situations. - -

Lucky you, my group isn't that nice to me. In MY game, fine, but in a game where I'm another player, forget it. Heck, they even get somewhat rules lawyerish at times, which is very annoying.

As a retail store, I did not like their new policies on dealing with storefronts beginning in qbout 1985 whixh is when I stopped carrying them.

They have continued their restrictive policy toward retail outlets since that time.

in regards to products, I do not like their casting material (plastic), rules are are under constant revisions due to supplements which is often a sign of weak mechanics, and packaging.

No sour grapes or hatred as I have been in business since 1983 without relying on their sales.

What I hated, as a high-school player with a near-minimum-wage income, was going into the store and realizing that I worked for 7 hours to pay for one carnifex. I hated that in order to find willing opponents you usually had to get at least 1500 points together (more like 50-60 hours of work now...and that's with some ebay deals and old figure bargains) And then, after I do all this just to kill some time playing a GAME, i end up playing some power-player who keeps sighting obscure rules that bestow super-human abilities on his (and only his) figures, and then argueing every possible point of contention, actually claiming that the arm of my genestealer that pokes out above the hill constitutes line of site. So I just take it b/c I just want to PLAY and end up losing all the time b/c i'm not enough of an a**hole to win with their rules.

As much as this is, indeed, a rant - my relationship with GW isn't one of hatred. I'm just tired. I'm tired of being told I don't know the rules when just a month ago I had them memorized. I'm tired of the obscurity, the power playing, the (rarely but very maddening) cheating. And I'm tired of shelling out my money and worse yet, my time, to a game of diminishing returns (fun). Now some of the stuff thats above is GW's fault and we could argue all day about how much they do the rest of it, but at this point I'm just done.

Hillman,

I think you're off base here. Most of the folks here that have had a problem with GW, its rules or marketing style have been FORMER CUSTOMERS, REPEAT FORMER CUSTOMERS. As such many of us have watched the bloom fall from the rose so to speak. For me it was when GW went to the 3rd edition rules. I was vigorously buying space marines and having a great time with them going against my buddies Space Wolves and Orks. Then the rules change hit. We were disolussioned to say the least. We were happy with 2nd editon. It worked the way a skirmish level game not set in the 14th century should work.

3rd edition to us was a medieval skirmish system using sci-fi blasters and lazerblades instead of broadswords or crossbows. Couple that with the massive price hikes and we went on to other areas of gaming. It's almost cheaper to pay the annual defense budget of Bolivia for a year and get to play with their army than to buy a GW one. This along with the rules shenannigans, the seeming inability to publish anything that is not either:

A) Derived from the Warhammer/Warhammer 40k universe or...

B) Derived from the Warhammer/WH40k rules engine

have all kind of soured me on GW. Now, I respect their artistic talents and their ability to improve the quality of rulebooks and packaging, however they reached a state long ago with me that has turned me away from them.

Now as to FLames of War, I hope they succeed. I'm an old Battleground WWII player (in 15mm) and bought their stuff when it was Battlefront. I loved them then and I love them now. I'm seriously thinking about getting their rules.

So you see Hillman, I'm not cliqueish, far from it. I personally think its slavishly devoted fanboys like yourself that can't see what is going on with GW. I would not be surprised to see them out of buisness, or under new ownership or management within 3 to 5 years. The chickens are coming home to roost.

I can't believe I've read all of this, I just feel compelled to add something.

I started wargaming sometime back in the late '70's with my older brothers. I built my own army in the early '80's (15mm Essex Marian Roman) Cut my teeth on WRG 6th. Played lots of games collected lots of figures.

I got to the point recently where I couldn't find an oppponent with an army that mathed mine in scale and/or period. I always used to be quite sniffy about Warhammer, but I have recently realised that I can pitch up at the local club and find an opponent.

I still do historical, but there is space in my cabinets for GW.

Matt

-GRW [has] a practical upper force limit-

The Great Rail Wars uses a card-driven initiative system. The simple version:

You get a deck of cards, and every unit in the game gets a card dealt to them. You then count down from Ace of Spaces to Two of Clubs, with every unit performing its actions (move, and shoot or fight) on its card's turn.

The practical limits of this system arise from keeping track of all the cards dealt. When we played GRW, a player never had more than six or seven units on the table at a time, so you're only keeping track of 10-15 cards, and you still have space on the table for all your paperwork. (GRW Posses are usually smaller than 40K units; and their ranges are larger, increasing force dispersion further. GRW games are characterized by large, empty spaces.)

If you play 40K with smaller forces (1000 points or less), then the system works as advertised. The problem is that you start running out of space on the table at 1500 points. Once you hit 2000, you've got another table to keep your cards on, and you're having trouble figuring out which unit goes next.

(Just because I call this the "GRW" system doesn't mean that it's exclusive to GRW. Its RPG-style successor, Savage Worlds, uses a similar system. As does ARES, I'm told.)

Thane Morgan and emau99 pretty much hit the nail on the head for why I dislike GW. I'll add/elaborate on those points just a bit:

The elitism that emau99 talked about on the previous page starts with top management and permeates the entire corporate culture of GW. From the official GW and Fanatic forums (where I was shouted down by hordes of Fanboyz and eventually cut off by mods when I commented on the new Epic pricing scheme) to the GW store employees (I was once called an a**hole twice by a GW staffer - in the Carousel Mall store in Syracuse, NY, in case anyone wants to know), the attitude I get from the company is really just "shut up and buy minis, stupid little customer!" That's why I deal now with folks like GZG, who are responsive, courteous, and really want the customers to enjoy the games, as much as buy them.

The second thing I'll add (it was mentioned already) is the shrinking pool of games GW supports, and the complete lack of logic and/or explanation for cutting out certain lines. Mighty Empires, Man o' War, Space Hulk, Warhammer Quest, Talisman, and even Epic in its earlier incarnations - these just seemed to be cut so that the core lines (40K, WHFB) would get all the money. But some of us were very committed to those games, and having the rug pulled out from under us was difficult to swallow. I knew a lot of people who actually left the hobby around the mid-90's because they were shut out of the lines they really enjoyed.

I wouldn't necessarily say I hate GW, and it sure as heck isn't for any reason so shallow or vapid as "they're too big" or "they're so successful". But I do resent the upper management team and the climate they've created - the power-gaming, the greed, the lack of diversity and creativity in the product lines.

Firstly I don't hate GW, but I hate what they have done to the fantasy gaming hobby as a whole. When I first started buying fantasy figures I had a huge Dwarven army collected from many manufacturers and I would take it to our local club and we would play Warhammer and have the best laugh ever. Each week we would try out new stuff. A guy turned up once with a great model of an Ankolasaurus (sp?) with a howdah full of orcs on its back which had taken him weeeks to model and paint put it on the table and first go had a Magic Myst spell cast on it, oh how we laughed. Try that now, turn up to play with a non-GW figure or a slighty different paint scheme and watch the fur fly. At least a good thing to come from these 'developments' is that I got into ancients.

I don't like the way GW call price rises 'price changes'.

I don't like the way I bought a whole set of codexes for 2nd edition 40k, all the add ons and 3 armies to suit, only for GW to make the whole lot obsolete (even the armies had to be changed to reflect new weapon restictions) with 40k 3rd edition.

I don't like the way they stopped the original IG transfer production as I was half way through a jungle fighter army.

They said 4th edition wouldn't affect the 3rd edition codexes...say that to my jungle fighters.

I finally bought codex chaos, weeks later a new codex was anounced.

I don't like the way a friend of mine was told to buy something or leave (even though he was a member of the club and regularly spent hundreds of pounds in the shop-he is obsessive) in a GW store because he did not reflect thier obsession with appealing to the younger audience.

The miniatures are extremely good, but when the plastics start costing as much as the metals, you have to question the pricing policy.

I am not a fan of John Blanche's work.

A lot of GW printed products are reprints of pictures and articles from WD and previous works so you are not necessarily buying a wholly new product.

I have collected GW products for 20 years. I have cupboards full of thier products (painted & unpainted minis, WD, rules/codexes & novels)and still find myself extremely impressed with the standard of their miniatures, backgrounds and (some) of the artwork. I have stopped buying all of thier products with the exception of paint (I started painting an army with them so I am fairly tied there) because they have become faceless, a multi-national conglomerate. Gone are the days when GW was a company of gamers for gamers, they got greedy and I prefer to take my business else where (Hasslefree miniatures, a family based company with exquisite miniatures, reasonable pricing and an extremely friendly approach).

I wouldn't say I hated GW but I do have issues with the way they have chosen to expand so much, at the expense of their followers.

Hmm.. I think my opinion has been captured in a few posts here already. Nothing more to add.

I want everyone here to stop, and think of this topic, but instead of GW, think Oil Companies.

You might find some interesting parallels.

- - - -

Thanks Meiczyslaw, just checking if that was relevant to Aetherverse. I can see how that would defintiely be a problem!

I'm planning on picking up coloured 'rocks' to use in the initiative system for Aetherverse (those pretty little plastic or glass rocks that I've seen used as markers in CCGs). I think they should work well.

Well... I started playing WFB with the first edition many moons ago... When figures cost the princely sum of 35p each...

And after many other periods and interests Im back to GW again. I like the figures, most of em, dont mind the rules, I have a set of each edition so I chop and change, and its sometimes easier to get opponents.

That said I dont buy much from the stores. Most is bought off Ebay. I dread to think how much my armies would have cost if I had bought them in the shops! I dont even mind their staff too much... Some are a bit eager but I quite like baiting them, and some just stare blankly when I tell em Im painting a Waffen-SS unit up...

The one thing that does bother me a little bit, and its a small thing so I dont know why it bothers me so much, is that despite GW's Historical forays, there has been some snide remarks made about historical gaming in WD lately. Go check out the 'Tale of Four Gamers' in, I think, the last issue... Its only a small thing but it bugs me alot...

Wow, Thane Morgan that was right on target, I have experinced the same GW marketing tactics in my area.

Now to experince this first hand you would think it would influence your views of GW a bit, wouldn't it?

I played Battletech long before I found out about 40K. And sadly I wish I would have found something else first. All GW wants now is fresh meat for the grinder. And noobs will flock to them, why? Because they often don't know there are other choices out there thanks to GW attacking the gaming markets in a way to ensure that there were almost no outlets for other games.

I don't hate GW because they are big, successful, or just to be cool. I hate them because I can, I do not buy any of their paper weights and plan to sell off anything of theirs I do have. So that will be less money they'll get from people looking for deals.

I've never understood why GW being a "real business" justifies their prices ? If everybody followed the GW marketing strategy, home computers would so expensive that only the five richest kings of Europe would own them. You'd see about five cars in your lifetime and an average concert ticked would be $100. USD

I do not hate Games Workshop at all.

Far from it.

They are the best think that has happened to miniatures wargaming by bringing in new players to the hobby.

The best thing is that the young generation eventually grow up, some take longer than others, but in time eventually these players begin to see the viability of other genres and historical periods, as well as how much more they can get for their money.

For the record, I'm nowhere near being a fanboy. I rarely play their games and have a tiny, sporadic collection of their product. I was opining based on what I've heard in game stores and in conversations with historical gamers. It's only a small portion of the zillion reasons gamers have legitimate issues with GW. Since we've all heard the usual reasons, I thought I'd offer another point of view, that's all. Actually, I swiped it from the book "Rebel Sell".

I love Games Workshop because they taste great with beans on toast.

- - I've never understood why GW being a "real business" justifies their prices ? If everybody followed the GW marketing strategy, home computers would so expensive that only the five richest kings of Europe would own them. You'd see about five cars in your lifetime and an average concert ticked would be $100.00 USD - -

If you have monopolies, that pretty much does happen.

Of course the question is, will you sell more computers if you price them at $1000, or at $100 USD million.

If it is $100 USD million for a low end machine, will even the richest people buy them? So even though you might make a huge profit of $99,999,500 off selling one computer, it is unlikely anyone would buy it.

However, if you make $500 USD profit every time you sell one, and you sell a million of them...

The simple point is, GW charges what they do because they can. That is it. It may not be 'ethical', but what is?

As long as people buy, they will charge high prices. It is not a complex concept. Truth is, I bet most companies would do the same thing, they just know they aen't selling "gamer crack" and don't have that luxary. Somehow, GW has developed "gamer crack" (and I'm not talking about some fat 40K player with low rideing pants here).

As long as they make money, they will charge what they can. I guy I know looked confused once when someone talked about "price gouging". He asked "Do they force you to buy? Do you need to have it? No? Then if you don't like the prices, don't buy. There is no price gouging, you either pay what they ask, or you don't."

If their sales start to drop off, one of two things will happen:

They will raise their prices to make more profit on smaller sales (which usually results in yet more loss of sales, so this is a long term negative spiral).

Or they will lower their prices to make their product more attractive.

It is very simple, if you don't like the cost of the product, if you don't feel you are getting value for your dollar, then don't buy.

As for the rest of it... meh. I don't care.

I just wish they would acknowledge that they are part of the wargames community & dump the "GAME WORKSHOP HOBBY" bolacks.

Wargames 'community'?

If we didn't hate each others guts to the extent we do, it might be a community.

And if the media hadn't firmly established wargamer = lunatic.

I'm not surprised in the slightest that GW established themselves as 'seperate'.

Its pure semantics. It works to keep the straights calm, and that alone may have made them millions.

I always thought it was because GW killed puppies...

;o)

Oh now I remember... Its actually the price... I pay £40.00 GBP every couple of months to buy a computer game that will keep me entertained for weeks...

£40.00 GBP in a GW store buys 4 character figures, a paintbrush and some paint that will dry out by the next time I visit.

I base my view on them purely upon my opinion of value for money for GW products. Crappy figures (Reaper are better!), Crappy rules (which version now?), Crappy paint etc etc... they base themselves on marketing driven drivel designed to appeal to kids. Not something I wish to buy into at the ripe old age of 32.

I am a wargames hobbyist - in what way are they supporting my hobby? If games workshop were gone tommorrow - It wouldn't affect me at all. String 'em up I say!

I'd like to second the complaints about prices. 45 dollars for 10 metal figures, 30 for 16 plastic figures. You know what's worse? The prices are the same in Germany, in Euros! That's like 60 bucks USD! 10 mediocre pewter figures! You need hundreds of dollars to play a single army. That stinks, and has kept myself and many others from playing.

Loves:
1) Fluff for all of it. 40k is wonderfully dark; a neat world that implies so much that is unwritten. Fantastically rich.
2) The rules - Never played but I've read tons of Battle Reports and am a member of several Yahoo pages dedicated to various armies. Tactical depth seems extraordinarily deep as I've often argued.
3) Love 'Eavy Metal Master Class painting guides - not the "Get Yer Army On the Table for Beginners" articles. I learned to paint from Wargames Illustrated and Minature Wargames but I learned to paint WELL from 'eavy Metal teams from the last few years.
4) Codexes and support books: Love em - great inspiration, great resources, great eye candy. Just overall fantastic and there's really nothing comparable.

Hates:
1) Prices - they're really indefensible -if they can prosper with that kind of structure than god bless'em. But I'm out.
2) Figures - of late (last three years??) they have been anything but inspired. Conceptually Witchhunters, Sisters of Battle, Beastmen, even Chaos are very cool but damn I haven't liked any of them - way too baroque with all them ridiculous additions and details.
3) Paints - I think they popularized three tone shading so I do like the selection but this new batch with the great lids give ridiculous coverage while the batch just before covered well but had crappy lids. Vallejo Game Color for me now ..

Misc: For all, they've popularized miniature painting, miniature gaming and have expanded the hobby exponentially. If anyone wants to make an argument for how they are second in that regard I'd love to hear it as I need a good laugh.

[is anyone reading these?]

Well! This has surely inspired me to go look for Tau battlesuits at blowout prices on ebay!

I was building all of my arguments, but I think that Thane speaks for me as well.

To me, the question should be more like, 'what do you like about GW?' It is a much shorter list. Near as I can tell, I like 1 figure a year about of all the crap they produce. I bet that I have spent $1,000 USD on figs and games in the last year and I know that exactly $14.95 USD was spent on new GW minis. I think that I also bought two older GW minis, but that might have been 2003.

In terms of the tactic that I actually think will destroy them is their new obsolesence policy. Of course it only applies to games at their stores and tournaments, but it creates a nasty stigma in the hobby. This hobby should be the one that I grew up with. It was open, welcoming, low-dollar (so that kids are not barred) and was more about strategy than who bought the most recent codex or demon.

I bought a Nikon years ago. Every nikon lense that they EVER produce will work on my camera. And, every lense that I have will work to the limit of whatever body I use with it.

The same is true with my minis which is why I will never play 40K, WH, or the rest of their crap.

Ironically, I do like WH Ancient Battles, but that is because it remains untainted from the skulls and chains, and skulls on chains, and chains on skulls, and skulls on skulls... It is also semi-independent like the other games that I like.

" skulls and chains, and skulls on chains, and chains on skulls, and skulls on skulls..."

You forgot flying skulls , servo skulls, assassin skulls, skulls on spikes, skulls on swords, skulls on armor, skulls on guns, skulls on buttons, skulls on earrings...

ad nauseaum,

Marc

Hilarious Captain Miller!!

But be careful... ...the term "ad nauseum"(TM) is now a trademark of GW, as are all latin phrases in the Codex Imperium Snoterificus (TM). Expect to hear from their lawyers... ;->

It is the very hypocracy of these type of posts that make me read this page less and less!!! GW is big, GW is evil, GW doesn't care, GW is selfish, I don't like Old Glory's big bags, their figures are gawky, Renegades are too big, Black Tree is a sock puppet, let's all kiss Perry's feet (although I suspect in some ways you support GW when you buy a Perry Miniature), this company is great, this company is a monster, some companies never finish their ranges, some figures are too small, 90% of all WWII vehicles and lace war figurines are somehow wrong - - - - -booohoohoo - -a bunch of old gossipy women. These are toys for people to buy with EXPENDIBLE income. If you don't like GW simply ignore it, why have endless posts like this? I"m also quite sure GW is at this very moment biting their finger nails, tossing and turning in their bed and in a complete rout because YOU THE MIGHTY don't like them. By the way the word evil among adults is reserved for men like Adolph, Pol, Bin Laden, and quite a few more. The word "evil" should not be used in the same sentence with little toys. Also - - -go ahead and critique and criticize my typing and spelling as I'm sure you also correct peoples mistakes even to their face. I love my hobby and every manufacturer has gone to heroic efforts to meet our needs (ya, I know, now you are all going to yell they made money). If they raise their prices to reflect economic times it is a foul deed they do - - - - -of course I"m sure most of you being noble and all are quite convinced you need a hefty raise at work and everything you sell you just love giving a big discount. I'ts not the providers I worry about in our beloved hobby - - - - - my concern is a pervasive attitude I hear more and more amongst the consumers. Oh, one more thing I also have never been to one trade show that I thought was over priced or bad. I am on every front a happy wargamer of 40 years with thousands of figures who often is astounded by the rise of discontent. Just a rant and a thought. I apologize to anyone who posts with legitimate wargame questions such as ob's, uniform questions, historical facts, etc. - - - -I must admit I am now embarassed but still have the courage to submit this letter - - -since I'm at it having been around casting "THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS "MOLD SHIFTING" and a werewolf would kick a vampire's butt.

Well if people like to play their games then great. If not find something else to game, just have fun doing it.

Sometimes we forget this is a hobby and just like Baskins Robbins has 31 flavors, everyone should be allowed to game what they like.

GW? - It is what it is.

Ed

Thought wrote: "I'm planning on picking up coloured 'rocks' to use in the initiative system for Aetherverse (those pretty little plastic or glass rocks that I've seen used as markers in CCGs). I think they should work well."

I've got a whole bunch of those from my Magic playing days, and they work very well. The rules mention using either counters or cards. The nice thing about our init system is that it doesn't run into the max-unit problem because you're not putting a card out next to every unit before doing any sorts of activation.

It's the same reason the Clan Wars init system just didn't work out. Rolling a die for EVERY UNIT took forever... and THEN you had to hope that nobody picked up the dice through the ENTIRE turn, because there were like 3 phases where that initiative had effect. :)

With AEV, the reason that most everything is combined into a single main phase is to prevent that from happening; there's just that one phase where you need to do init. And since you do it as the phase goes on, you don't have to keep extensive track of who's acting when.

(BTW, I'm really kind of pyched to see an Aetherverse discussion going on interspersed with this thread. It's GREAT.)

Triskele, I couldn't agree more!! However you forgot to mention a very critical issue heavy infantry while advancing with pikes can interpenetrate light infantry, while light infantry is stationary, but not while firing, and in or near rough terraine, with cavalry on flank, or routing friends within three, or general near, while being fired upon by enemy bow, while they themselves also have bows, or no general in four, and flaming pigs near. Of course this is all very real as my Egyptian chariots with horses the size of dogs slame into and rout my plate armour Teutonic Kights. Also I might add my pikemen cannot be used in a tournament because the helmets and shields are wrong and we know this because we found a etching from a second grader on a weather stripped column. I don't really car though I never did like those figures - -the pikemen were too big, the officers were too short, the musicians were too expensive the standard bearers were inaccurate and the manufacturer would never make my casualties as he discovered I only wanted three of them and wanted to spend less that $1.50 USD - Also it needs to be known I am only a rabbid historical gamer. One more thing it needs to be known that the Napoleonic French Army having walked hundreds of miles through mud, goo, slime, no Hamptons or Micky D's, with no one ever losing their shako (I can't keep mittens or sun glasses one week) still forged across the battlefield in full dress. I also like Wal Marts and the new historical magazine released at Cold Wars.

My opinion of GW - summed up by the look of shock I saw on a woman's face when she saw the prices on a couple of packs of GW minis 'little Jimmy' wanted for Christmas. I felt really bad for her. I don't know if Santa brought 'little Jimmy' what he wanted or not.

By the way the word evil among adults is reserved for men like Adolph, Pol, Bin Laden, and quite a few more.

Pffft. Speak for yourself. There is everyday evil on your own street if you have a close enough look. Or do you consider the workaday worlds crimes and abuses just too pedestrian to qualify?

The word "evil" should not be used in the same sentence with little toys.

While it may be a bit harsh, I believe you will find that they arent so much talking about little toys as they are the little toy companies business practices and corporate culture (encouraged by the other grown-ups who own/run said little toy company). If its one-tenth as bad as the rest of the corporate world, "evil" is as good a word as any to describe the soulless, compassionless, amoral beings who run things.

You think that's bad, you wouldn't believe the disappointment in my wife's face when her "little" husband wanted a completely restored 62 corvette for Christmas. You would have found it very sad - - I think it ties in to the fact that when I was a kid my mom hit me with a broom once - -I think I also discovered why I post on here so rarely - -my pointy finger is killing me!!!!

Thane summed it up very well. The only thing I'll add is that I do dislike them because they're successful - the reason being is that that means there's lots of GW gamers around who don't want to look into anything else. They already have their hobby and generally look down on other stuff. Warmachine, Reaper, Confrontation, FoW and others have put a dent into it though! In my mind, a monoculture is always bad - even a gaming monoculture.

@sixthlancers - nice rant! Having no paragraphs was a nice extra touch. You're forgetting something about "evil" though - it's like a vector. It has both magnitude and direction. Using an independant retailer to build a market for you and then swooping in and driving them out of business after they took all the risk is evil - it's pointed in the same direction but has a lower magnitude than some of the things you listed.

Nathaniel, Thanks for the comments on my rant. When K-Mart shut down dime stores they were quite happy, the crying started when WalMart came along and devoured them. Micky D's does not have a monopoly on bergers and it is not unfair to me because I cannot get a "big mac" in a Berger King. Games Workshop cannot stop a consumer or a retailer from supporting, promoting, and or distributing many of the other fine products available. They can simply dictate how, when, and where the product they rightly own and copyrited can be sold.

As far as business arrangement, at the risk of sounding arrogant and possible a BS'r, I own and operate a multi-million dollar company and enter into a substantial financial risk without binding contracts. If I could not afford one or one was not offered I would be very wary of such a capital outlay from the onset - - a great risk indeed - none the less that is the real business world. Once again in my openion "evil" is Nazi Germany, Wounded Knee, the Sudan, Georgia 1965 and countless other things and acts that should make us all shutter. Yes, business is sometimes ruthless - - but evil?

Sixthlancers, thank god your pointy finger is killing you! Take your own advice and quit whining. If you don't want to be in the discussion, you know where the door is. I know that I am biting my nails hoping that you won't leave!

Sorry your mom hit you with a stick... But I bet the car is nice!

I mean no sincere rebuke, only a gentle one. We are all wargamers afterall.

This is astonding!!! 90 some posts and I'm "whining" - the whole silly post is nothing but a whine. I just feel compelled to come to the defense, for some sick reason, of helpless GW who is simply too big and bothered and home sleeping in their beds to respond. I didn't get the car and we had to suffer by going home and spending some time in our pool - -wouldn't you know it - now my left pointy finger is starting to hurt.

PS - I know, I know I spelled Burgers wrong - - how dreadful. This is why I need a secretary or wife at my side constantly. Important fact when I go to Baskin Robbins I have always, still do, and always will get chocolate.

Is the multimillion dollar company a liquor distillery? Why would you ever risk millions without binding contracts??? As a lawyer, I am offended. ;->

And I still hate GW.

Why didn't you get the car? Your assets clearly require that you drive a 62 Corvette!

"Quite frankly, no one else is offering the quality of writing, editing and publishing that GW offers"

<ahem> I really have to take serious issue with this outrageous and utterly irrational assertion. *I* have the privledge of working with one of the finest writer/editors in the whole freakin' industry. I really very much doubt that GW has a PhD Orientalist on its staff with a curriculum vitae that could strangle a carnosaur like a chicken...;)

Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express Content Team
metal-express.net

The best examples of "evil" are not the extreme ones like Nazi deathcamps, genocide in Rwanda, etc., but the small ones in day to day life. Choosing to screw someone for a buck, harsh words meant to wound, pride, elevating yourself at someone else's expense. Day to day selfishness is the beginning of the spectrum of evil with genocide and mass murder on the other end. Ruthless business practices are definitely on the spectrum. The word "evil" is not reserved for the extreme cases - we just don't like thinking of it applying to day to day things because then it applies to us.

They can simply dictate how, when, and where the product they rightly own and copyrited can be sold.

Right - and when people don't like the way they do it, they can choose not to purchase it and talk about it on message boards like this one - even to the point of encouraging others not to give the company in question anymore of their money. Fact is this thread is a useful part of the process - this is a symptom of GW pushing things past what the market can bear. It's not "a bunch of old gossipy women" at all.

BlackWidowPilot - No kidding. After each army release, GW releases FAQs and clarifications out the wazoo. Quality of editing indeed.

Thane Morgan said:
"Jesus H Christ. I can't believe we have to go through this again. I really want to leave this alone, but people keep bringing up stupid strawmen arguments and bogus insulting personality assessments.

Fine.

I don't hate GW. I think their an unethical company that puts out schlock. I think they do damage to the hobby, by attempting to define themselves as the hobby, then dumbing down the product and insulting their customers' loyalty, resulting in driving people away from the hobby when people should just be driven away from GW. "

Umm..Thane...not sure if you are referring to me or not. I just asked the question.
Secondly I don't think Jesus had a middle initial, and if he did, I am not sure if it was "H".
Umm..Thirdly...I find it interesting that you say that you "don't hate GW", but you give us an interesting dialogue on "all of the bad things that they did", but you never mentioned any of the "Good" things that you have noticed, or "WHY" even after all of the stuff that they did that you listed, that you DON'T hate them.

Intersting enough, the second paragraph in your posting, you could remove "GW" and replace it with "Microsoft", and have the same argument...

Hmmm... this far into the thread, only a handful of people will read this. But here goes anyway:

People "hate" GW for pretty much the same reasons they "hate" Microsoft.

Partly it's because of their sometimes questionably business practices (e.g. illegally controlling retailer pricing).

Partly it's because of perceived quality issues with their product.

But mostly it's just their complete and utter lack of humility and respect. Microsoft at least acknowledges that competition _exists_.

Partly it's unavoidable. Who loves Exxon? Big businesses are doing well if they get a neutral reaction.

But it is also earned by actions and attitudes they could change if they really wanted to.

Oh, and the fans. Fanboys are the worst part of almost any gaming system, and GW has LOTS of them.

Nobody here hates GW, we just think their products are overpriced for what they are, and many TMPers don't care for their style/subject matter. Other than that it's just another entertainment company trying to maximise profits without really caring about the hobby. Which is why we don't *love* GW, but that's a different thing. I suppose Fanboyz often confuse not being fond of or critising GW with hating the company, as they themselves are so enthusiastic about it they can't handle the fact that others are not.

i grew up on gw products, the background and the rules are all an integral part of my childhood . my personal beef with them is the level of aloofness that comes from their sales and executive types . they look at gamers as customers to be exploited for maximum profit, and maintain an unwholesome and hostile attitude to their online fans[constant threats of ip law suits on dubious legal grounding]. Anything they do to try and improve their product is used as a cover for price rises, hence although we get plenty of options on the new termie sprues they cast a ridicoulous amount!

I personally would love to see them run as a healthy competitive corporation that can see its own long term interests in not being hostile to their own consumers, or leaving them feeling neglected by abandoning old units and models[keep the rules and gouge people with increased mail order prices].

This is an amazing thread. . .

I have never seen such a display of emotion of a company and/or product. It is a wonderful thing to see folks let it all out. It also shows how folks care for this hobby. How much we want it to succeed and grow. There are a lot good people in this hobby. The bad one are few but the squewky wheel gest all the attention. Not one can really deny that GW has good product or that GW has terrible business practices. But never let a single company dischourage you about this hobby. Its a great past time. A great way to meet some real nice folks and can be good for the soul, like any good hobby should be. There is plenty good gaming around to discover. Someday GW will price themselve of the market and the rest of us will still be here playing other games with our friend. Its up to us to make the hobby more noticible and bring in new blood.

I was brought into this hobby by GW back in 89. I still have all my old RT stuff. Space Hulk was the best thing they ever put out. Just because they stop producing it does mean I have to stop playing it.

Play what you love and if it doesn't love you find something else to play. . .Enjoy the hobby first! It all about the hobby and the quality time we spend on our selves.

Battle ON!

I like GW products for the most part. I had designs on building a 40k army, but due to the expense involved it looks like a no-go. I really wish it were otherwise.
But you know what they say, "Wish in one hand..."