"GW hatred..." Topic

Oh we're glistening from the sheen
from the sweat cuz GW hate thread has reached fourteeeeeen.

@ Maxxon. FASA lost the case, that is why there are Battlemechs designs no longer in production the "Unseen". The thing is Harmony Gold then went after merchants that were selling models of Macross stuff under the title of Macross. HG claimed they have exclusive rights to Macross merchandise under their title Robotech.

Anyways, I throught the reasons of why the hatred of GW was clear by now.

Do I hate them? … You could say I have grown to hate them. Their priceing has gone up higher and faster than any other miniature game out there. They have created an attitude that has caused friction among gamers.

I would say I've grown bored of them. Bored of weapons with pitifully short ranges, oversized weapons, and limited selection of abilites. 40K is a shell of it's former self, so much so that it isn't cool anymore.

Is GW the Darth Vader of the real world?

Started off with integrity and potency.

Turned to the dark side and created an empire.

Became sick man in a mask with a iron grip on the galaxy.

But underneath it all he's still "got good in him".

There is certainly a love/hate vibe going on in this thread.

Javelin had some pretty good points about GW.

Excellent points actually…

It seems that GW is no different than any other company when it comes to the behavior of the board. They are primarily concerned with their own salaries and the shareholders…

It would be nice if they could keep their entire line in production from the days of Citadel to their current miniatures. It just sucks to want a unit of a figure that they no longer produce, and the process of tracking them down is prohibitively expensive.

I wonder exactly how good it was that they bought out Sabertooth? I have to wonder what else the company could have done if it was not a subsidiary of GW…

"It would be nice if they could keep their entire line in production from the days of Citadel to their current miniatures. It just sucks to want a unit of a figure that they no longer produce, and the process of tracking them down is prohibitively expensive."

I have the feeling that they didn't bother to save their greens or masters, so most of them you will never see again. I was dropping 5 grand a year just ordering archive models from them. Then they discontinued them all. And then then UK mail order began acting like US mail order. Needless to say, my money is happier staying with me now…. :)

Oh man, I get to start page 13!

Yeah, that new carnifex… all plastic…. all $45.00 USD … all hideous paint job…

If this is not a reason to dislike GW, then what is?

Now, given that with the exchange rate, the price should be about $55.00 CAD Canadian. And… I'm shocked. It is!

When the exchange rate was 1.5 to 1, I could understand the prices were a bit wonky. But they're actually making the US/Canadian cost make sense. As for the other prices that were higher in Canada than the US, GW fixed that by raising the US prices :)

quote: "GW… look at how many games, rules and figures have come and gone. Try and buy Armies of Antiquity (have they done a recent reprint?) the most important of the WaB supplements. Their figures are continually coming off the shelves, other wargame suppliers dont do it anywhere near as much if at all. "

Erhhh, most WAB players would agree that Armies of Antiquity is now the *least* important of the WAB supplements since most of thw "quick and dirty" lists have now been superceded by newer works (as was always the stated intent!).

And, if you want to order it, Warhammer Historicals have it in stock. If you don't have it in your local WHH stockists, it's probably because they don't order it anymore!

Regards,

Dave

quote "It seems that GW is no different than any other company when it comes to the behavior of the board. They are primarily concerned with their own salaries and the shareholders…"

Quite right – it's a multimillion pound business. The board run it as such because if they didn't they would go out of business.

quote "It would be nice if they could keep their entire line in production from the days of Citadel to their current miniatures. It just sucks to want a unit of a figure that they no longer produce, and the process of tracking them down is prohibitively expensive."

Yeh – while we're at it I had a really nice pair of jeans that I bought from Next 10 years ago and I'd like to get another pair – if only they still produced all those old product lines back to the year dot…. (I know it was a "it would be nice" comment, but I couldn't resist!)

Regards,

Dave

quote "If this is not a reason to dislike GW, then what is?
"

Do you dislike every company that produces a product you neither like nor want? It's not a good reason at all.

Regards,

Dave

Judas stated "It seems that GW is no different than any other company when it comes to the behavior of the board. They are primarily concerned with their own salaries and the shareholders…"

The swine! Whay kind of monsters ARE they? All of us working for registered charities free of charge raise their hands…. now.

No-one ?

Pat

Judas stated "It seems that GW is no different than any other company when it comes to the behavior of the board. They are primarily concerned with their own salaries and the shareholders…"

The swine! What kind of monsters ARE they? All of us working for registered charities free of charge raise their hands…. now.

No-one ?

Pat

Oh good Lord! GW is trying to make MONEY? Those monsters!

I don't think there's anything wrong with GW trying to make money. There's just a few things I don't like about the [b]manner[/b] in which they do it (see the first several hundred posts of this thread for people's thoughts on that).

"The swine! Whay kind of monsters ARE they? All of us working for registered charities free of charge raise their hands…. now.

No-one ?"

Probably not. But that doesn't mean we love our greedy employers :-p

Sorry for the fanboys, but while I like some of GW's products (and think a lot of it is ridiculously overpriced), I don't feel any obligation to love or adore them. To me they're just another toy company, and a rather unsympathetic one at that (unlike many of the small businesses I got to know here on TMP). They'll have to work harder to win my heart.

I guess that what es-off people about GW is that at one time it was perceived as being more "Sympathetic" to the Gamers/customer base than it is now..

Now, it is just another impersonal corporation that is making products that are in demand by a segment of the population.

I don't really dislike their miniatures (other than finding them a bit overpriced, but I could do something about that if I really wanted to), nor for that matter much of the Warhammer Fantasy products (Considering that I ignore about 90% of them, and again…price is a little high).

It is the cookie cutter nature of their written products that I have already gone on about that I find objectionable…

I also have no problem with the CEO & Board worrying about the bottom line. I just wish that they would consider thatthey might be able to get just as good a bottom line with a little more consideration of their consumer base.

Foxmeister said…….
Erhhh, most WAB players would agree that Armies of Antiquity is now the *least* important of the WAB supplements since most of thw "quick and dirty" lists have now been superceded by newer works (as was always the stated intent!)…….

you said … 'most WaB players would agree……. etc etc? thats a bit of a sweeping statement old bean…..

There have been a number of replys on here that have said you dont need lots of the supplements to play warhammer, just the rule book. Now you dont need AoA for the majority of army lists. Its a rip off. cant you see that? Why stop producing AoA?????? there is no reason what so ever…. it is clearly to get people to buy their supplement comics. WRG havnt stopped producing their army list books. If your happy to keep doleing out money to GW tabloid-games press nice one, but expalin why there should take AoA off the shelf…. I would offer this… because it has too many army lists in it, so discourages the purchase of their other comics. Yes?

Hammer

Comics? What are you on about?

Do you KNOW for a fact they have stopped producing AoA? My local store just got a big shipment in of Armies of Antiquity, so at least THEY have no problem stocking it.

And why do you actually care since you disparage ALL their products so?

"you said … 'most WaB players would agree……. etc etc? thats a bit of a sweeping statement old bean….."

Wow, Hammer, talk about the pot calling the kettle BLACK!! Weren't YOU the one who said, "Goth/rock type young lads buy GW."? I have never seen a more sweeping statement in my life— and incorrect, if all the people I have seen playing GW games here in the States are any indication. I don't see too many Goth types in general any more, really— it's mostly passe'. But keep on trolling, dude…

quote "Why stop producing AoA?????? there is no reason what so ever…. "

Who said they have???

quote "is clearly to get people to buy their supplement comics."

I'm sure the authors of said works, who are not GW employees but wargaming enthusiast would be very glad to hear their work refered to as comics!

quote "thats a bit of a sweeping statement old bean….."

Oh the irony!!!! Re-read your own posts for a masterclass on sweeping statements … :-) I wasn't aware that only your gross generalisations were permitted on this forum! (my apologies!!!)

Having said that, as to my "sweeping" statement…

Pop onto the WABlist and ask how important AoA is these days.

Pop to a tourney and ask how important AoA is these days.

Better still ask WAB players who don't refer to WAB supplements as comics.

Or even better, ask Rob Broom of Warhammer Historicals.

Oh – and while you are at it, why not read AoA in the first place, particularly Jervis Johnsons foreword?

quote "but expalin why there should take AoA off the shelf…."

Once again, who said they have? Look on the WHH site and you'll find AoA in stock. I've not heard that it is being discontinued but you clearly have! Chapter and verse please???

Regards,

Dave

Heh.

Oh dear the defenders of the faith :o)

Firstly, I have clearly said on a number of occasions I play Wab with friends at our club / shop (where Rob Broom often visits and I think recently won a mini competition with his Japanese)

I did not say I have never made a sweeping/generalisation statement, I only said that in this instance yours was… and it was.

We over here have had problems getting copies of AoA and suggestions that it is not for reprinted. It may be different over your side.

AoA may not be important to the competitons over there, or over here for that matter, but it is a publication that contains lots of lists for a smaller financial layout than having to buy the time period specific supplements.

As for the Supplements themselves, I have procured all of them to look at and im entitled to be riveted buy their content or not. Because thats called 'opinion' and in my 'opinion' if you take out the rules, pictures and lists, your are not left with much. If your impressed with their historical depth thats fine because you have an 'opinion' too, but im not.

The writers may not be GW employees but they were paid to write the supplements and if you get paid and people buy what you have written the buyers are entitled to say what they like about them. Books, Magazines, comics, news papers all the same. Its like 'artist' who paint everyone can express a like or dislike, so dont get all indignant if someone think differerent to you.

Nazrat…Opinion is not Trolling just because someone will not subscribe to your 'opinions'. Just like being taken in by GW pretty pictures and gloss is not being a GW sheep.

Hammer

Ah, methinks thou dost complain too much.

For what, pray thee, wouldst thou complain about if not GW?

To tellthe truth, 'tis a Grognards paradise, to be sure.

(Appologies to William, but I feel he'd appreciate the sarcasm)

quote "Oh dear the defenders of the faith :o) "

Not at all – I just asked you to enlighten us as to why you said AoA has been discontinued.

quote "We over here have had problems getting copies of AoA and suggestions that it is not for reprinted. It may be different over your side."

Oh please what utter nonsense! You stated that AoA has been discontinued but now it's just a suggestion???

I can well believe that AoA might not get reprinted at some point since it is largely redundant these days. Notable exceptions: the Chinese, Japanese and the Crusader lists – and the last two list are absolutely awful anyway!

WHH have the book in stock – if they have the book, stockists can order it and put it on the shelves.

Two other quotes!

quote "If your happy to keep doleing out money to GW tabloid-games press nice one"

quote "As for the Supplements themselves, I have procured all of them to look at "

"Nice one" Hamer! – Looks like you were taken in by all the pretty pictures and fluff then, since you procured all the supplements just to look at them!

quote "in my 'opinion' if you take out the rules, pictures and lists, your are not left with much."

Erhhh, the main point of the supplements are the additional rules and the lists – of course there isn't much else if you take that away. They are not supposed to treatise on historical warfare, in the same way the WRG reference books are.

quote "Its like 'artist' who paint everyone can express a like or dislike, so dont get all indignant if someone think differerent to you. "

I'm not indignant – the whole point of debate is to discuss opposing points of view.

However, WAB supplements are not comics – that is a completely different form of literature/art. If you want to level specific criticism on particular supplements, please do (Lord knows some of them deserve it!).

Regards,

Dave

P.S. FYI I'm on the same side of the pond as you are.

Should this thread even be in the historical WWII section?

Well obviously its here, long and always the same so I figure I may as well pipe up as well.

I have four Warhammer 40k armys. For years I played at least once per week and oddly liked the fact that GW changed the rules (at the time) because I thought it reflected that they where trying to get a better balanced game.

Now I feel quite different. GW's games are like comic books, each character (army) has ups and downs and the same story goes on and on and on and on rare occassions an entire army may . . die. The game system is so far out of balance its nutty; whoever made the formulas to determine the points for everything on a whole must be on heavy medication. Furthermore givin all the stats that the game uses: WS, BS, I, W, M, Ld, and Save – they still make rules to break other rules for certain armys. Wow is about all I can say and don't get me started with wargear or the points costs for that crap.

I do like their sculpts and I must credit GW for both thier success and getting lots of people back into tabletopping. Perhaps I'll purchase the odd GW model here or there, though my armys aren't growing any larger. I won't sell or ebay my them, but I doubt I'll play with thier TIRED and unbalanced rules.

Yeah. The WW2 point has been raised already. It really should never have been crossposted to WW2 or Ancients (although with WAB, perhaps ancients). I'll send the editor a not and ask to have it moved.

Nathaniel,

Your request has been granted.

I had a difficult time finding this topic this morning. A search for it revealled it still being on the WWII board, which is where I usually found it.

Appropriate that it was taken out, but I fear for the life of this topic! I am hoping we reach 1000 posts, but tucked away in the Industry page it may not be as easily found to some of our friends debating the issue.

It's actually EASY to find, Tim— especially if you ever posted to it. I just click do a search for threads I have posted on, and there it is, like an ever growing cancer. 8)=

Okay, maybe moving it killed the thread— it's been a day and no new posts…

Tim: "tucked away in the Industry page it may not be as easily found to some of our friends debating the issue."

For true GW hater, no mountain is too high.

Griefbringer

This definitely seems to be winding down after the move, so I guess there aren't that many true haters after all…

Aw come on guys! We can show more love than this! I mean this thread is taking a life of its own!

How about a hand for the red shirts out there!

Everything's been covered. I don't think this thread will hit it's lofty goal of 1000 posts unless some person starts make crack pot generalizations and gets everyone fired up again.

And I just don't think I have the energy to do it. Wait… I feel some building up:

White Dwarf Magazine pretends to be a hobby magazine but is actually just a series of advertisements. GW has somehow tricked a lot of less than brainy people into actually paying to view these ads. What can one say about the intelligence of all the people who pay to see GW advertisements?

I did my best. But let's be honest here, if the thread has arrived at a place where someone has to be purposefully inflamatory to keep it going, perhaps it's time for us to walk away satisfied that we all expressed what we wanted to express.

I could always go post a link to this thread on GW's message board— that would get a hoard of pre-pubescant fanboys flooding in here to defend their beloved.

Let's not.

I don't think WD pretends anything anymore.

I says right on the cover "Games Workshop Catalog and Hobby Supplement" (or something to that effect).

If they pretended, they probably stopped a long time ago; the WD concept has been about the same since 1993 or so (ie. no outside ads, promoting only own company products).

By Nathaniel's logic, we could probably claim that: "Wargames Illustrated contains advertisements, and there are people out there who go and buy it. Somehow WI has tricked a lot of less brainy people into paying to view these ads."

Griefbringer

Reminds me of one thing:

I have back issues on CD for two different magazines. One is WI.

WI is obviously just scanned from the old mags, so the CDs include all the old ads too.

The other magazine made its CD from DTP files, and they removed the ads from the CD.

I actually prefer the WI approach. It's fun looking at the old ads, cursing yourself for not buying all that stuff in 1988 when it was dirt cheap (and you were dirt poor but that doesn't count).

(The other mag is not a wargaming mag. Its name bears no relevance to the case.)

I agree, old ads are cool. If I come across some old WDs in 20 yrs time, I'm actually far more likely to buy them than today :-)

Thread is dying boys. We tried our best. Moving it into the Industry board has killed it. How do you get intot he Industry board? I had to search for the thread. Does one need to be a supporting member?

Cpt Miller: "Moving it into the Industry board has killed it"

Should we post about that to the obituaries board? ;-)

Cpt Miller: "How do you get intot he Industry board?"

You just have to go to TMP link

Just memorize the ID numbers for all the boards, and hopping around gets easier (going up and down the navigation tree is slow and boring).

Griefbringer

As some were asking of some proff of GW bad behavior to indy retailers:

gamers-exchange.com

As some of you may or may not know Gamers Exchange has closed it's doors Monday August 1st 2005. After a simple issue with Games Workshop could not be resolved in over a month, resulting in new product shipment delays, and restocking delays we have decided to withdraw from this business entirely. It is clear to us that Games Workshop no longer cares about its independent retailers. This is evident by their 17% drop in accounts last year, and their opening of 30+ Games Workshop branded hobby stores. The issue was simple and could have easily been solved had Games Workshop had any coordination between their account managers and their accounting department. We were told for over a month that it was a shipping delay issue because they moved to a new facility in Memphis and that a lot of orders were being lost in the system. We were promised tracking numbers that would never come, FedEx drivers were having complaints pushed against them for no reason, and it was all for nothing. It got so bad, at one point our Account Manager had to pull product off the Glenn Burnie store shelf and UPS it to me over night to restock our Space Marines and Necrons.

We appreciate all the loyal patrons of the store and hope to stay in contact with a vast majority of them. Rob is thinking about continuing the Fantasy Campaign at another store for those interested in playing. Our contact info can be found below.

I don't like GW.

Well, actually, I just thought this thread needed more posts…

Well, two words should suffice – "overpriced products".

Griefbringer:By Nathaniel's logic, we could probably claim that: "Wargames Illustrated contains advertisements, and there are people out there who go and buy it. Somehow WI has tricked a lot of less brainy people into paying to view these ads."

Except for the fact that the ads are from a variety of companies and the articles, pictures, battle reports, etc., therein are not designed primarily to sell a particular new release. Or if they are, then yes, we could claim the above statement.

It's not dead yet.

I wondered what happend to this thread. To find it here. I posted this on another thread but I'll repeat it. Sit down and think about it for a moment.

First consider the cost of a Space Marine squad is $35.00 USD for 10 plastic models. That's $3.50 USD each.
Now a Tactical squad is $20.00 USD for 5 plastic models, that's $4.00 USD each. The same kind of plastic models that are in the Squad box.
SPace Marine Terminator squad box $50.00 USD or $10.00 USD each model.
Tyranid Warriors box $35.00 USD for 3 plastic models and 1 ripper swarm or $8.75 USD each.

Now Eldar Guardians $35.00 USD for 16 plastic models, which is $2.19 USD each.
Eldar Dire Avengers $30.00 USD for 8 plastic models, or $3.75 USD each. And all they are is Guardians with different heads, that's $1.56 USD for the different head.

Now Mongoose publishing Starship Troopers MI $19.95 USD for a box of 8 plastic models, $2.50 USD each, and they're 30mm scale.
Arachnid box $19.95 USD for 6 plastic models $3.33 USD each. And these things are nearly as big as a Carnafex and easily as big as a Tyranid Warrior.

Is it just me or does any one else see something wrong here? Gamers need to really wake up.

I'm quite glad I discovered Stargrunt in 15mm scale. My forces at present:

Four New Israeli squads of eight men each: $4 USD per squad or $16. USD

Three power-armor squads of six men each: Again, $4 USD per squad ($12 total).

Four DLD Productions Komodo APCs: $8 USD each, or $32 USD total.

Two DLD Bengal MBT's for fire support: $10 USD each, or $20 USD total.

Four Targe figs from Mechwarrior for use as infantry walkers: $2 USD each, or $8. USD

Total cost: $88 USD for two platoons, six vehicles, and four walkers.

I have the same number of everything for my Kra'vaks, except that I used Old Crow grav tanks for the vehicles and Uziels for the walkers. Since the Old Crow tanks are cheaper, I can field this force for $76. USD

So for $164, I can have up to fourteen squads, twelve vehicles, and eight walkers fighting on the tabletop. That same amount of money at the GW store would buy me:

Three Land Raiders;

or

Two squads of Elysian drop troops;

or

Three squads of Terminators;

or

Two Carnifexes and two squads of Genestealers

Etc., etc. It's no contest — I can have way more fun actually playing by going 15mm and staying away from the overpriced GW stuff.

Although I do have to say — the single good deal GW has going right now is its LOTR stuff. The figs are nice and the prices are still decent, by and large. The new Moria boxed set looks like a pretty good deal.

I remember a rumour from a few years back that New Line had specific price requirements in the license agreement that forced GW to sell the LOTR stuff for lower than what they wanted.

They are hated for many reasons, but the unreasonable cost on a desireable product probably does it. Knowing they could sell more for less only adds to the aggro. Their "no veterans" policy sure ticked my group off.