"GW hatred..." Topic

Hammer says:

"Real wargaming appeals and satisfies a very wide section of society. "

And then goes on to remonstrate with Nazrat:

" resorted to personal slur and lost."

So the first comment I quoted, which you've made into a theme here is not on the same level as a "personal slur"? You are being deliberately provocative and then cry foul when someone rises to your incessant baiting behaviour?

Sorry, there's no difference in the two behaviours. It does not speak well for your conduct by you trying to make it so.

"The above is a very accurate observation."

So you extrapolate your observation at your hobby store to the rest of the world. Excellent. Your observations invalidate those of others. You are so concerned with pigeonholing GW players into stereotypes. Such behaviour would normally bespeak a fundamental and deep seated insecurity if it were observed elsewhere.

I don't know how your apparent inflexible view on wargames would react to the realities outside your own microcosm, but the people I know who play 40K are: a lawyer, a teacher, a university lecturer working on a his pHd and numerous other professional people who simply don't fit your stereotypes and all of whom are over the age of 30. They also play historicals, but their first love is 40k wargames.

Some don't realize that stereotyping is a dangerous thing, especially when their stereotypes are based on their own narrow views and experiences. Presumeably there is a need in some people to boost their egos by looking down on groups of people. It makes it convenient when targetted groups are not of any race or ethnicity, but it still is the same thing.

Lately on TMP, I have encountered some people in this hobby who have expressed extremely unpleasant attitudes and world views that the majority of us hope will someday evolve out of human behaviour. I can honestly say I would be loath to have such folk around my historical wargames table.

Judas said: "The goal of the Tyranids is to absorb all of the genetic material that is in their path is it not?. The Tyranids are experts at close combat. The weakness in the Tau is in this specific area. To IGNORE IT IS IRRATIONAL"

You're right. That is irrational. But who ever said galactic empires were dominated by rational thought.

We as humans certainly aren't. I mean any day now an asteroid can come from out of deep space and cause a cataclysmic event which could wipe out the human race. Scientists say we are due for one any time now. That's a pretty big threat.

We have an extremly poor system of early warning (I think I read somewhere that we actively scan about 2% of the sky)and no contingancy plans to deal with a huge asteroid on direct course for earth (beyond the 'ole dig a big hole and drop a nuke down it theory, made popular in movies).

We certainly have the technology to build a defence system against such threats. We could also colonize the moon or other places in the solar system in order to spread humanity around and make us a harder target to take out (not having all your eggs in place and what not).

These things are all within our power yet we do not do them. Why? This is irrational!

Judas, you seem to be dealing in absoloutes and black and white thinking. The world isn't such a simple place and things don't fit very nicely into preconcieved boxes of logic.

Human history is riddled with irrational acts, anarchy, and decisions that don't seem to make much sense to us historians. There are plenty of things that man could have done, but didn't.

We are not Vulcans and neither are the Tau.

And besides, the Tau seem to do quite fine without needing to be experts at close combat (both on the table-top and in the fluff).

One last thing. Do you ever play historicals and say "man the Persians suck cause they have no phalanx! The Greeks use phalanx formations on me all the time and my army list has no provision for me to adopt the same thing. This is irrational. Obviously the Persians would realise the superiority of the phalanx and use learn how to use these formations for themselves. After all the Persian empire is a vast and rich domain. Their armies led by competant military leaders. They certainly have the capability to adopt phalanxs'. Historical ancients suck because the backstory for the Persians is irrational!"

Give up, Holden! he WON'T reply when he is so obviously beaten in every way. He'll only come back with the same trolling he's been doing for pages now. It's been fun attempting to engage him in some sort of debate, but he is unable to counter ANY of the arguments you or I have put forth. Yours have been especially effective, and for that I say, "Good job!"

Tim, I couldn't have said it better myself! (and I didn't, when I tried to!) 8)=

"You're right. That is irrational. But who ever said galactic empires were dominated by rational thought"

Wasn't the whole argument that the Tau WERE a rational group?

So, now you are saying that the Tau are NOT a Rational group?

Which is it, are the Tau rational or Not?

another ppoint you raise… We have a poor early warning system for asteroids and other NEOs… Guess what… If we do not get one we may become extinct… Thank you for making that point, too. We are behaving irrationally… And it will bite us in the behind. But we also do not have anyopne throwing asteroids at us. If we did, and we continued to ignore the need for a warning system… we would not only be irrational, we would be stupid.

I guess that you can suspect that I live in a black and white world… I do not think that I have made any assumptions or otherwise about your ability or character. ALL I have said is that GW produces Fluff, that they have no consistent ability to provide adequate backstories to their games…

The other point that you make… The Persians…

Hmm… they had no Phalanx, and they got wiped off the earth by the guy who had them. They failed to adapt… Thank you again for making that point.

Did you forget that the Persians LOST?

If the Persians were a rational and Scientifically advanced society, which the Ancient world was NOT. The Scientific Method had so far only been hinted at by a few individuals (BTW, this is what I have a degree in, and will be getting another in a few years along with a graduate). es, the Ancient world was pretty much DOMINATED by irrationall views and superstition…

Aside from the fact that you seem to think that I am looking to put things into convenient boxes, what i am loking for is exactly the opposite. The GW world is built upon a series of absolutes of one kind or another. a race either IS one thing or it is NOT. There is little grey area in their mythology…

As for evidence, I have listed specific QUOTES from the Gw material that runs at diameteric opposition to the definitions of those positions, and presumptions.

I have pointed out in each case that a society that
professes to be:

1) Scientifically advanced

2) Rational

3) Diverse in its technology

Would have to either Adapt or die.

All I have seen in opposition to this is:

"No it isn't"

&

"I am right and you are wrong"

Oh, could you name me a Persian commander who was competent who fought against either Xenophon, ANY of the Greeks and Thermopylae, Platea, Gaugamela, Issus, etc, etc. & I know that I am mixing earlier battles between the Greeks and Persians (Xerxes – or was it Cyrus, I get those two confused sometimes and it has been a while since I read the books) and Alexander and Darius

excuse my haste.

That should be "Greeks AT Thermopylae, etc."

Nazrat, could you point out WHERE EXACTLY I have been unable to counter his arguments?

Alsom let me see if I understand your position correctly.

The Tau are a scientifically & Technologically advanced race. (From the GW Tau web-site)

They see no problem as being able to be overcome by this science. (From the same web-site)

They are supposedly rational, yet they behave irrationally. As Holden stated above.

And with all of this advanced technology, there IS a problem that they cannot overcome?

"And with all of this advanced technology, there IS a problem that they cannot overcome?

The players using them on the tabletop "wrong" or inm a tatically unsound manner?

Although I have to admit all this arguing about fluff in a nonexistant universe is quite amusing, but then it's Saturday night/sunday morning after a few drinks….

For the last time. The Tau don't see it as problem that they aren't adept at hand to hand combat. Yes, they could overcome their deficiencies in melee combat but they don't, because it doesn't matter to them. They have already dealt with the problem in different ways (already mentioned).

Your entire position seems to rest on the belief that if the Tau fail to master hand to hand combat then they will fall victim to other, more adept races and become extinct. You also seem to believe that the Tau have tried to master hand to hand combat but cannot.

I believe these premises to be faulty. I don't think GW ever tried to put forth these arguments. I don't prescribe to these beliefs at all. As I have said before, I think the Tau fight just fine and dandy without needing to be any better at melee combat.

They may become extinct and then again they may not. They may be devoured in an overwhealming tide of a massive Tyranid host. Yet again, they may be able to hold off the masses with their superior firepower and technology. That's part of the fun of playing these games. You get to fight the battles. You get to determine the fate of your forces.

Just as the Darius III may have overwhealmed the Greeks at Gaugamela. For a time it was a close fought pitched battle. The Greek left flank very nearly crumpled, and if it had some historians say that the Greek incursion into the heart of the Persian empire would have been crushed right then and there.

That's what makes Guugamela such a interesting battle to fight out on the table-top. Despite the superior Greek formations it was a very close fought thing. It may have gone either way.

The point is that all these countries and empires have their own reasons for not taking what you percieve as the best course of action for them. Sometimes adopting an apparanty irrational act works out for them (as with the Canadians charging Vimmy Ridge in WWI. They defied conventional wisdom and advanced up to the German positions even wilst their own artillery barrage wailed overhead). Then again sometimes it doesn't (as with the gallant charge of Pickets division at Gettysburg).

Is the writing for GW products watertight? Does it hold up under scientific scrutiny? Of course not. This is after all a game first and foremost (and not a treatise on future warfare). No one ever said that 40k was hard sci-fi.

However, I beleive the capabilities of the Tau on the table-top fit in nicely with their described history and backstory. Further, I believe that backstory to be sensible and logical enough.

And that's where I believe I will leave the argument. It's apparant that neither one of use is going to change to others mind. Thank you for the stimulating debate.

And remember, keep on gaming.

Holden88 you said……..Presumably there is a need in some people to boost their egos by looking down on groups of people. It makes it convenient when targeted groups are not of any race or ethnicity, but it still is the same thing……………………………………..
You went on to say…………………
Lately on TMP, I have encountered some people in this hobby who have expressed extremely unpleasant attitudes and world views that the majority of us hope will someday evolve out of human behaviour……….

You also said………………… Some don't realize that stereotyping is a dangerous thing, especially when their stereotypes are based on their own narrow views and experiences………..

and another blast…………. You are so concerned with pigeonholing GW players into stereotypes. Such behaviour would normally bespeak a fundamental and deep seated insecurity if it were observed elsewhere…………………….

Wow………. have you redirected the debate or what. Your thoughts are definitely worth reading through again….
Now please remember this is in reply to your change of debate direction.

Why on earth have you brought up – 'targeting race or ethnics, threatening world views' – into a discussion about whether anyone dislikes GW, astonishes me. Do you try to see some underlaying evil in anything you don't immediately identify with. Everything has to be grey, no opinions allowed here just a very occasional whimper from the corner.

You have edged this debate away from the original question directly towards your socio-political views, then turned a pretty harmless personal views into possible social, political, ethical, physiological warheads aimed at the meek undefended masses. To cap it all you finished with a psychiatric diagnosis. All that because I said GW shops aim their sales at, and in the main sell to young lad's not adult wargamers.

You say stereo typing is a dangerous thing, what is that supposed to mean, dangerous in what way, how dangerous, as dangerous as an ant bite, a wasp sting? or an enemy massing troops on your countries borders? Or is it too dangerous to contemplate, one tiny step if you stereo type groups, the next step, a communist or fascist state? What are you waffling on about, I'm not interested in your social views, do you like GW shops, games, figures and rules or not.

It doesn't get any better when you mention targeting groups which is the same as targeting other races or ethnics. See, your need to dissect and look for the underlaying meaning of any statements because that's the way to root out evil, it reminds me of the renaissance religious witch hunts. " I saw that woman collecting mushrooms under an oak tree on a Tuesday, lets tie a carrot on her nose and burn her as a witch". Yes its as daft as that, well it isn't daft actually, if you think about it, it's a disturbing trait amongst more and more new men and as disturbing as some of GW's graphic pictures of slaughter aimed at kids in their 40K mags. Now there you are something else for you to work on….a bit more pigeonholing. Put a pair of trousers on and leave the tofu-on-seaweed biscuits to those that wear dangly earrings, and debate like a bloke.

Hammer

Wow. 500+ posts, I am so very proud of all of you, but I think as some one pointed out we've gone way off topic now.

About the Tau issue, well historically any army that has not been able to adapt has lost in the greater scheme of things. The Tau have technically adapted by useing the Kroot, which the Kroot seem all to happy to be the meat shield for the Tau. And why not? They get to eat anything they catch and kill right?

Although seeing the Tau have done this, what is there to stop another race from seeing this and taking steps to find a way to create a massive genocide of the Kroot leaveing the Tau exposed? Oh wait, 40K doesn't make allowances for virus bombs anymore.

Just as Star Wars is WWII in space, 40K is Napoleonics in space. I think it should just be left at that, although I prefer my Napoleonics in the 17th century.

I don't like the new 40K, it has strayed too far from Rogue Trader and the universe has changed to much (for me). I like some of the 40k figures and races. I am not so keen on the fluff, for much more than a quick read. WHFB seems better too me, as does LOTR. Bloodbowl was good fun. Necromunda and Inquisitor seem ok – I've only played Necro though. Dark Future was great. GW have made some damn good games, and some lovely figures. Their new plastics are pretty good value, their metal figures not so good. I doubt I'll ever play 40k, I will use Shockforce until I need to use vehicles then I will look for something else as it doesn't seem to cater for them. I will use GW 40k figures with it. I've played GW stuff and bought the figures and White Dwarf since issue 94, so a good few years. I have also worked for them. The fact that they can give staff a 50% discount and still make a profit on the sale sums up their prices. They have stopped the buy x amount in weight of metal figures for £20.00 GBP to staff though. I think you either love their stuff, like it, dislike or hate it. They have good and bad points as a company. I think they have lost their way over the years though since they got shareholders. The arrogance shown in some areas of their business dealings remind me of Chelsea. So, GW – once very very good, now, IMO mediocre – good at some things, awful at others. On the whole I find their shop staff pretty good, and willing to talk about other games and genres, as at the end of hte day they are gamers, not GW clones :-)

Hammer. I didn't say any of those things. It was Tim Marshall whom you've quoted.

Honest mistake with all the posts flying about lately!

Many appologies Holden88 I should be more careful, see I am an old git :-(

Its virtually impossible to commit a mass genocide of the kroot race, as a good portion of their population is engaged on several generation long voyages as mercenary adventurers to aquire new genetic material to avoid the restrictions which the tau inflict upon their diet[by limiting the races upon which they feed]. this would in turn eventually cause the downfall of the kroot race as their gene-pool stagnates .

I think it should just be left at that, although I prefer my Napoleonics in the 17th century.

Strange. I kind of like mine in the very late 18th century and the rest in the 19th century. :)

But good call on 40k, it's like a napoleonic skirmish where the muskets aren't quite powerful enough.

I think you guys should check this week's Larry Leadhead.

larryleadhead.org

Says it all really.

Brian
Currently playing or collecting:
Napoelonics 28mm
WWII 15mm
Warhammer Fantasy Bretonnians 28mm
War of 1812 28mm

" The Tau don't see it as problem that they aren't adept at hand to hand combat."

So, the Tau, a race that has been stated to be a rational, scientifically and technologically advanced society, that cannot see a problem that they cannot fix doesn't think that their inability to perform certain real world jbs without resorting to reliance upon another to do the job is a problem?

Hmm…

So, the 40K world will allow for the Tau to have mixed units with the Kroots embedded in Tau units to ward off any ravaging groups whose battlefield doctrine is to get in close?

I get it… The Tau are a STUPID rational race. They just stick their heads in the sand when they have a problem that they don't want to face…

" You also seem to believe that the Tau have tried to master hand to hand combat but cannot."

Could you tell me where it says that they have tried?

I have looked pretty thoroughly at a lot more than just the Tau's ability in terms of their weapons and technology, and the problem goes way beyond just their H-H abilities.

If the Tau had tried to overcome H-H, it seems that by GW's own backstory the Tau would have been successful, as I paraphrase again from the GW web-site on the Tau:

They see no problem that their science and technology cannot overcome.

Reliance upon another race to do a job for you is a pretty stop-gap measure. It is based upon the premise that the other group is ALWAYS going to be at that place where they are most needed for their specialized skills.

As for the Greeks and Persians… It didn't go either way. Alexander stomped Darius, who then ran through the desert like a little girl…

As for adopting irrational tactics… Not an issue. My point is that Strategic and Tactical DOCTRINE that overlooks an area that is said to be of vital importance is neither rational nor smart, both of which the Tau are said to be.

It has to be one or the other in that case. They are either ARE smart and Rational beings who will address this shortcoming, or they are idiots who will wind up winning a Darwin award for their oversight of an obvious problem, and it goes beyond just their H-H abilities…

But, since you have provided me with what I was arguing all along: That GW products are just fluff that have no rational and coherent thread to bind them:

"Is the writing for GW products watertight? Does it hold up under scientific scrutiny? Of course not. This is after all a game first and foremost (and not a treatise on future warfare). No one ever said that 40k was hard sci-fi."

I was arguing from the very beginning that it was fluff…ie NOT hard Sci-Fi.

Yet, in your very next statement you make the position that it is logical and sensible enough.

Which is it… Are they logical (ie rational, and hold together under scientific scrutiny, which is what Logical means more or less), or do they NOT hold up under scientific scrutiny?

AlienSurfer, I used to work for GW for a short period in the 80s as well (probably earlier than you did). I used to have several figures that I painted on display at the Dalling Road store.

They have lost their way pretty much. I still use some of the Epic 40K figures for other games, but since my ex-wife stole all of my miniatures in 1999 I have not got back into any large scale (25mm) gaming. That will probably change since Renegade is doing a Punic Wars line, but I have not found anything in 25mm Sci-Fi that looks interesting to do. I may buy a few figures to paint as part of a new portfolio, and I may sculpt a few new figures for the same as well… But I have got too used to having the ground scale as close to the figure scale as I can get it. It just feels creepy when I play with larger figures in a game that does not have a similar ground scale to the miniature scale.

I think that as more and more of the GW constituency grows more mature that they will begin to cater more to that growing maturity.

From what I have seen of the developing 40K line it seems that some of the issues that I have with them are beginning to be felt by others as well.

Many of the newer vehicles and figures are beginning to look markedly more modern. The New Predator looks almost like a Vietnam era M113. The Tau and the Elysians are a definite venture into an attempt to gather more "Hard" Sci-Fi players. They have not exactly been big steps into Hard Sci-Fi, but I am pretty sure that 40K will see more of this sort of thing as people begin to see the little inconsistencies in the uses of the technology and the applications that have been so obviously missed.

That is funny that you mentioned the 50% discount… when I was there, employees would just grab big handfulls of miniatures when they needed them. I don't think that practice continued for too long, and the operation was also significantly smaller…

I have mentioned it in other threads, but eventually GW will have to give in to market pressures to remain ompetitive. With the rising use of instatation technologies the manufacturing of miniatures will become MUCH cheaper, and the ability of even poor sculptors to make pretty detailed and proportioned miniatures will increase to the point that getting high quality miniatures will not be an issue.

From the work that I have done with 3D imaging at one of my jobs; I am my boss figure that it will be about 10 years until this same technology is available to the masses. GW will either have to adapt or die.

Yeh, that was ealier than me Judas ;-) It was fun in a way to work there, I worked with three Dutch guys and had a good laugh. I kind of enjoyed running games. What I really hated was the all yell 'waaaarrrrgghhh' idea to decide dice rolls or the odd thing that cropped up. Bad enough on a good day, but on a saturday and a sunday, when you are early twenties and enjoy the nights out on the tiles, ooooh, HEADACHE ;-)

Wow, 500+ posts. I guess we're having a looonnngg weekend, eh guys.

BTW I love all the dark and hopeless 40k stuff, it makes me feel right at home, LOL. Love the new spacemarines and nids as well.

But I'm having to pass on the new hive tyrant so I can buy some white glue instead.

I'm surprised 500+ posts dont crash the sytem, Bill is doing a great job as usual!

"The Tau and the Elysians are a definite venture into an attempt to gather more "Hard" Sci-Fi players."

What are Elysians?

Elysian Drop Troops, from Forge World. Beautiful models, albeit pricey being resin, and specialty figures to boot.

Elysians are troops that have these grav-harnesses that look as if they are to be used as paratroopers of some sort or another.

I do not know what the "Official" rules for them are, as I have stopped reading GWs "offical" product rules/backstories, etc. They tend to be rather incredulous…

But, the models from Forge World look fantastic, and are a bit pricey. I am wondering how well they would stand up to a mold maker. I know that the Epic Tau do not re-cast very well, but then they are pretty tiny. The Elysians are 28mm figures with several modification parts that you can get for them as well.

I keep hoping that they will do some Epic Scale Elysians, as I pretty much only do 6mm Sci-Fi these days. I do have a few 15mm troops, but they are mostly used for smaller engagements. I mostly do Battalion level stuff in 6mm. I have a whole Battalion of Epic Scale Imerial Guard minis and conversions that I have done for playing Striker, StrikerII, StrikerIII & Dirtside-II, plus several companies of the epic Tau and a WHOLE bunch of Adler 6mm figures (probably 2 battalions worth)… If FW do come out with Epic Scale Elysians, they are going to set me back a fortune, as I plan on doing an Infantry Battalion of them as well.

As Nazrat has said: Beautiful Models… but pricey.

GW pretty much ripp… borrowed the Tau look from Appleseed, including the monolens.

If you've got beef with that, take it up with Masamune Shirow. He's actually quite a lot into making his designs believable.

(Though if you look closely, it's actually one big lens and smaller supporting ones)

I have no beef with the design of the Tau, and I am completely familiar with Masamune Shirow. His Appleseed series and Manga were works of art that were very well done.

Shirow did not build defects into his works.

GW DOES. They take the silliest things just to get a game to balance rather than think of a reasonable and rational explanation for the problem.

In Appleseed the Mecha are also not limited by depth perception due to other sensors that are used. The monolens is only for optical visual imaging, and if you look carefully there are several other lenses located over the mecha/armor, but the largest definitely makes it look as if it is a monocular…as you ponted out… So there would be NO problem with depth perception.

But in the Gw product that I read aboout the Tau… They claimed that the Tau had poor depth perception due to their monolens helmets.

What kind of idiot builds a defect into a war machine.

"Hey, lets keep our soldiers from actually being able to accurately range the enemy by having only one lens in their enclosed helmets."

Many of their products have been taken from Manga or Japanime. Many of the early Imperial Vehicles were taken from Miazake models from the Nausica series… It is a pity that they did not just hire their own designers to make a more coherent design philosophy and technological applications for their products. As it is their designers seem to fall down on the coherent design and technological applications side of the equation.

which GW product stated that tau had poor depth perception???

It's completely possible that the Tau "monocles" are actually composite eyes like a fly has. They could have better vision and depth perception out of that "one" eye than out of two if it was a composite eye with several hundred or even thousand lenses.

Now now… if they indeed themselves say the monolens causes lack of depth perception, then it is indeed a stupid thing.

But I've completely missed that one.

Then again, I pretty much ignore their vapid PSB and fluff anyhow.

Besides, what do you expect from a rip-off?

Shirow and Miyazaki are on a completely different level design-wise, but they don't make miniatures games. Unfortunately.

That was my gripe… GW themselves have in one of their products a statement to the effect that the monacle of the Tau lens causes lack of depth perception…

What is PSB… I agree with the Vapid and Fluff parts (See my several pages of diatribe to that exact point on previous posts in this thread)

Actually a lot of the Manga producers have products that are used in games, but I have not seen one in the US or western world. I saw a game based upon a Manga back in 1988 when I was in the far east for a few months, but seeing as I didn't read Japanese all I could do was to admire the packaging and peices… At least I assumed it was a game… It had several "playing pieces", a map, and some dice that looked like eight sided sticks, and a few charts that were written in Hirakana or Katakana (I do not know which one is which).

I imagine that Manga designed gaming products will become more prevalent as the language barriers fall (There are several companies that specialize in the creation of translation services. It will not be long until they have reliable real-time translation for Computers, PDAs and even cell phones… Of course, that is just one barrier. The other will be the creators of such products realizing that there is a market for the games.

I just hope that it is NOT GW that seizes upon the idea first, and thus turns it into a difficult market to enter.

"All that because I said GW shops aim their sales at, and in the main sell to young lad's not adult wargamers."

If you had said that, it would have been a valid point. The rest of this debate, for the past 3 or 4 pages, anyway, has been fascinating and I've learned a number of things from both sides of the coin.

However, you have said much, much more than what your cry of innocence above indicates. It's cowardly behaviour, in my opinion, to make not so subtle attacks on groups of people for whatever reasons (insecurity is but one hypothesis) as side bars in a debate in which you are embroiled.

Now you are upset because I am challenging you on those comments.

Too bad.

I'll say it again – you're applying your own limited experience (of course you communicate here as if it applies as a universal law of physics or some such) to us all and painting people who play a certain game with poor quality stereotypical latex paint.

It's that simple. You can deflect from what you've done here all you like with charges of redirecting the debate. A responsible adult takes responsiblity for his actions. If those actions include making outrageous and demonstrably incorrect assumptions while arguing a point, he has to put up with the consequences of what he's done.

Indeed, you yourself have changed the direction of the debate: I, as a historical wargamer, have taken issue with the, in my opinion, ridiculous assertion you make about fantasy and SF wargames not being "real" wargames. The other debate with Judas et al is interesting and on topic.

So what makes things such that you are permitted to "change the direction of the debate" but others of us, especially the fantasy SF wargamers who you so obviously look down on and toward whom you have behaved in a colonially patronizing way are not permitted to do so?

Or is it that you understand that debate meanders but you're only prepared to take the corners when you're ready for them and not when anyone else is?

Now once again, I will describe your behaviour here: you are applying stereotypes (and later, when confronted, feigning ignorance about why doing such is simply wrong) and behaving in a snobbish way towards people who have different preferences than you.

Tim Marshall (got it right this time) OOOoww you are a one… Timothy…

Timothy said…."include making outrageous and demonstrably incorrect assumptions"

Timothy then said " I'll say it again – you're applying your own limited experience"

Is that not an 'outrageous assumption' as you have no idea what my experience is? no I suppose its not in your rules book……

Im a coward… you said…. Take that sir… 'smack'… I will see you at dawn……. your choice of weapons……. oi. dont you shake that feather boa at me sir…..

Ok, Ok… I submit… you win, im totally wrong, your completely right…. see…there you go, you've won.

My most hublest regards…. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

whisper…'GW still aint wargaming' :-p…. WHO SAID THAT…. HAMMER LEAVE THE ROOM AT ONCE…… yes sir……….'sulk'

That's right Maxxon, Shiro and Miyazaki's designs are two different things. Shiro goes for the modern high tech look and Miyazaki's are all period peices meant too look like they're from WWI. If you were to play these designs against each other in a fight, I have no doubt that Shiro's designs would wipe out Miyazaki's.

But that's beside the point. GW is not the only to have done this, GZG has a few tanks that are straight out of the anime Gall Force.

And Judas, could that game have been S.F.3.D now called Machine Kreiuger (sp?) or something like that?

And did I say 17th century? Sorry about that wasn't thinking straight. And another correction, 40K is Napoleonics in space with WWI tanks with lascannons.

No, I had seen the SF3D stuff as early as 1980… This was something different that had a more Gundam look to it, but it wasn't anything Gundam that I could recognize as late as 1988. It could have been another series that did not make it to the US until the early-mid 90s. I was dead for a period during the 90s so I missed out on quite a bit that happened from 1994/5-1999…

17th century would not be too far off either. It is 200 years too early for Napoleonics, or 40K (That's a joke, son…get it???), but the battles were still line 'em-up and shoot 'em-down affairs…

Judas Iscariot, you do know that in a good portion of the background is in character for the imperium and as such runs propaganda negatively against the xeno races .

a brilliant example of this being the imperial infatrymans uplifting primer, but as this fails to mention the tau i guess it mus tbe in something else .

Geez, Hammer, don't give up on me, for goodness sake – take a few shots – how else are we going to make 1000 posts?

I cant think of anything else miserable enough to say… im all out of wind-up material…. :o)

Im finishing my ECW rules ready for proof reads and off to the printers so im in check everything in sight mode….

Hammer

Gee… And page 12 is just around the corner…

It can settle down for a bit and then someone will add a post and it'll start all over again.

All it takes is one inflamatory comment.

Let's see…

GW doesn't produce *real* wargames — no wait, we covered that already.

GW fluff is inconsistent and dumb and therefore they are too! — nope we've hoed that row before.

GW models are cartoony and out of scale even with themselves. — Hmmm. Another point already addressed.

GW uses gothic/edgy imagery to appeal to pre-teens but their products like real substance — I think we've already been down that road.

GW prices are too high! — Stupid horse! Get up, I'm not done beating you!

I think we've convered pretty much everything. Here's the new challenge: State good or bad points about GW that have not yet been covered.

Good point, they're not stingy when it comes to buying their staff coffee or tea in the mornings.

Points at Esrik s

HE'S ONE OF THEM! GET THE GW LOVING HERETIC!!! ;)

I do seem to remember Bryan Trying to pour Coffee or tea down my throat every time I turned around…

It isn't GW anymore, but I did get a good deal buying the rights to a few of their miniatures.

Now, I just need to find the molds (The Ex-Wife again)…

GW is the only miniatures gaming line to be cool enough to spawn a line of video games! What other se of miniatures rules out there can make that claim?

There. That otta be good for another hundred posts!

Yeah, I know Shirow has done video game design work. That's why I said they don't make _miniatures_ games.

Miyazaki's probably too old to make anything but films. He's been trying to quit making films for the past 10-15 years, but he is Studio Ghibli and Ghibli is him…

But both men excel in design work that is well thought out and internally consistent.

(This has increasingly less to do with GW)

This months Australian edition of White Dwarf is the absolute worst issue of that publication.

Amongst other things, they show examples of the "new" Tyranid farce painted in seemingly random colours.

It's like they pulled the bits from the box and just painted them up differently just to demonstrate that one could use different colours.

And don't get me started on the RIDICULOUS terrain articles from the past few months.

GW actualy give examples of using essentially a 40 dollar (Aussie) mini to create some of the most poor examples of terrain I have seen, just to give it that "Tyranid" look. What a joke.

It's so bleeding obvious that some git has got a huge GW Studio bits box worth of gear and whacked it together like some gimp off a DIY home improvement show.

And they try and give the impression that they are focusing more on the "hobby" aspects of the hobby. I'm sure that we've all got spare Tyranid warriors and Lictors just lying around for those must have authentic terrain pieces.

I think I'd rather spray paint my faeces green and drape it across a battle bunker games table…

Just a note on my last post:

I have my Opsrey book on Tyranid Elites you know…

SeattleGamer,

You wrote:
"GW is the only miniatures gaming line to be cool enough to spawn a line of video games! What other se of miniatures rules out there can make that claim?"

Traveller had a computer game done for it. I cannot recall the name, and I do not know if it was ever released, but most of the 3D images in the newer Traveller materials came from that game.