"Selecting my German tanks and SPGs" Topic

Ok, a real newbie question here, am starting ww2 in 20mm (not up for debate !!)and would appreciate some advice on the following….

What German tanks and SPGs should I purchase that would provide me with a good enough selection that I could use it across western, eastern and desert theatres? Fine to separate by early, mid and late war.

I am getting lost with all the variants, and although I am not a button counter I would like to stay "realistic", ie no fielding 10 king tigers!!

I hope its not too onerous a question and if a website somewhere exists then pls point me to it !

Wow! That's tough. Pz IIIs would cover all three. Pz IVF and short-barreled IVs. A Tiger I or two. Marders. I'm sure someone will be along to give you a more thorough list.

The nice thing about early war vehicles is that a number were still soldiering on during the mid-war, but are soon relegated to security duties as the mid-war transitions to late war.

One that I would recommend is the Panzer III G and H series with 5CM gun. These served in the Desert and Russia from 1941, but were gradually replaced by the J and L series with longer guns. These things managed to still be in combat against partisans and airborne landings as late as 1945. The earlier version with 37mm was used in Poland and the West and also the very early stages of Barbarossa and maybe the Desert, but were quickly overhauled and up-gunned when the short version of the 5cm became available.

pz3 short & long 50.
Pz4 ditto.
At least one tiger

Stug3
Panther

Revell for most of those if you want quality.

Oh
Sdkfz251 of course.

is there a variant ref on those "short" and "long" ?

Pzr IIIs and IVs and Stug IIIs will do for late 1942 on.

apologies its in the previous post, G & H, J&L

Early war – Panzer II and IIIs; grey for Poland/France/Russia, desert yellow for North Africa

Mid war on, StuG III with the 75mm L40/43 in gelb (yellow) will do for Eastern Front, Italy and northwestern Europe; same for the Panzer IV with the long 75; for late 1943 on Tiger I and Panthers

Pz III H and G short 50mm
Pz III G any J long 50mm

In my own opinion…early war vs. mid-to-late war vs. desert german vehicles look very different.

Blitzkrieg era vehicles are all panzer grey, occasionally with a second color for camouflage.

Mid-war (1942?) came the change-over to yellow primer with standard brown and green cammo colors. There was a mix of grey and yellow AFV in 1942-3, but by 1944 very few grey AFV would be left, maybe more softskins.

Desert was a whole 'nother story, the sand color seems to have been lighter than panzer yellow and overall sand the most common scheme, with occasional green (or brown?) dapple.

The AFV were different too. Pzkw II and 38t are gone after 1942, long-barrel Pzkw III and IV appear in 1942 and soldier on until the end, but 1944-45 AFV run much heavier, Panthers and Tigers, Pzkw IV H and Stugs with schurzen, and so on.

That's my personal opinion. For longest use I'd pick a mix of heavy and light AFV from 1942 (as others have suggested), especially long barrell Pzkw III, IV and Stug III, paint them yellow with brown and green cammo and use them through 1945, but that won't cover the blitzkrieg era, and I'd want to add some heavier vehicles for 1944-5.

Yea, Pz IVH and Panther for the late war, as well as the StuG III (or StuG IV).

Tiger I for a heavy tank. Go with yellow paint scheme for it, and the others, since it was used from 1943 on.

Thank you all for the very rapid answers.Good summary zippyfusenet.

Wow 2 hours, and I now have a great list of vehicles to start with !

Just to add to the discussion:

The Nashorn would be a good addition. first use in Russia in 1942. Stugs would be your best bet. while modeling these try and make barrels interchangeable. This way you can make more use of what you get done early on. Later the models can become the variant(short 75, long 75, 105) as you desire.

Just a point to make; the order changing AFV from Panzer Grey to Dunkel Gelb was in Feb of 1943. This was when the full on war footing of German industry started to crank out AFV in droves(at least for the Germans) and in various varieties. Think Elefant, Panther, IV Variants(Brumbar).

To cover the most ground Dunkel Gelb would be your best bet. It would help to know the units you want to build and get the models for those. Then you cannot be wrong.

Hope this helps and a Nashorn is an over kill. If the enemy can see you or has survived you have done something terribly wrong.

Bravo----out.

As noted above, I think you'll really struggle to cover early war, late war and desert with the same kit. Apart from the vehicle colour schemes, the uniforms in the desert are completely different too.

What to get depends what level of game you are after, but generally I get a minimum of two of anything mainstream (and more commonly three or four) as they can then become a platoon or company in either 1:1 or 1:platoon type rules.

Frankly, the vast majority of German AFVs were produced after 1942 (production in 1944 was running at 2000 per month, in 1940 it was a couple of hundred at most) and the main types are actually more standard than the plethora of 'grey' tanks up to late 1942 as they included virtually every variant of Pz 1, Pz 2, Pz 3 and Pz 4 you care to mention as well as Tigers, Czech stuff etc.

For 1943 onwards, I'd got with the main types – Stug IIIf/g, Pz IV G/H, Panthers and the odd Tiger. For one offs I'd go with one piece of self propelled Flak and some sort of SP infantry gun (e.g. a 150mm Grille). Things like Nashorns, Elefants etc are all very well but they were produced and used in tiny numbers, and e.g. there were more Brumbars than Nashorns.

For a number of years my 15mm late war Germans managed fine with 2 x Stug Gs, 4 x Pz IV H, 3 x Panther G, 2 x Tiger 1, 1 x SP 20mm Flak and 1 x Grille. It was plenty of stuff for all the scenarios and game levels I was interested in, but in 20mm even that is a fair bit of painting.

Thins which do stretch well over multiple periods are softskins, whch you can paint grey but then plaster in mud/dust so they'll do for the entire war.

If doing pre 1943, you really need to decide if you are doing 1939/40 or 41/42 as the mix of kit is really very different, masses more Pz 1/2 in the early period, masses more Pz III/IV later.

Desert is easy, get Pz II, Pz III (short) and Pz IV (short) in the ratio 1:2:1. Add in the odd long barrelled Pz III.

londoncalling:
The German kit you probably want are as follows:
Pz II F Good for Games from 1939 – 1943. The F is a later model but can stand in for earlier models.
Pz III F/G/H Good for 1939-1943. The F is close enough to the earlier D and E models used in France and the Low Countries as it's short 50 mm gun is not that different looking from the 37mm gun of the earlier models and thus can stand in for earlier Pz III versions.
PzIII J both with the shorter L43 barrel and the long L60 barrel. Good from Late 1941-1945. A workhorse of the German army.
Pz IV F1 Good for 1941-1945 and can stand in for the Early war Pz IV D used from 1939 – 1943(?).
PzIV F2 Good for 1942-1945 The workhorse tank of the German army.
Pz IV H Good for 1943-1945 The workhorse of the later German army.
Pz V D (Panther) Good for 1943-1945 Another workhorse of the Germans.
Pz VI E (Tiger I) good for 1943-1945.
StuG III B-F Good from 1940-1945
StuG III G good from 1942-1945
StuG IV F Good from 1943-1945
PzJg I Good for 1940 – 1942.
PzJg III 38(t) Marder good for 1942-1945. My favorite Marder because I'm an old Pz 38(t) junkie.
JgPz 38(t) Hetzer Good for 1944-1945.
JgPz V Good for 1944-1945.
SdKfz 222 Armoured Car. 4- wheeled. Good for 1939-1945.
SdKfz 231/1 (8-Rad) Armoured Car. 8-wheeled armoured car. Good for 1940-1945.
SdKfz 251C/1 Good for 1939-1940 – the most common half track of the Pz Grenadiers and can proxy for the earlier B version.
SdKfz 250/1 alt Good for 1942-1945 the half track of the reconnaissance battalions in mechanized units. Good for 1942-1945
SdKfz 7 Prime mover for the 88 mm Flak 18 and Flak 36 AA guns. Good for 1939-1945
SdKfz 10/4 half track mounting a 20 mm AA gun. Good for 1940-1945
Opel Blitz 3-tonne truck. Good for 1939-1945
Steyr-Ford 1.5-tonne light truck. Good for 1939-1945
Krupp Protze 1.5-tonne light truck. Good for 1939-1945
Kubelwagen good for 1941-1945 field car.
Schwimmwagen Good for 1943-1945 Amphibious car
PaK 36 a 37mm Anti-tank gun. Good for 1939-1945.
PaK 38 a 50 mm Anti-tank gun. Good for 1941-1945.
PaK 40 a 75 mm Anti-tank gun. Good for 1942-1945.
FlaK 36 88mm AA gun. Good for 1939-1945. Used as an AT gun as well. Good for 1939-1945
leFH 18 105mm gun. Good for 1939-1945.
Good luck and good gaming!
Rod Robertson.

Martin Rapier brings up a good point. In 20mm scale, there are visible differences between early and late war German uniforms, not to mention the tropical kit worn by the Afrika Korps.

Blitzkrieg era German soldiers wore a feldgrau (greenish) tunic, blue-grey trousers and jack boots. In 20mm, you can fool with waffenfarbe piping if you please.

In 1943 a simplified uniform was introduced, with a short jacket cut similarly to British battledress, both jacket and trousers in mausgrau wool (a steel grey), no more piping, and half-boots. This uniform became more prevalent as the war went on.

It looks best if you choose figures for one era or the other to match your vehicles, and paint them appropriately. Again, for longest use I'd go with a mid-to-late-war look, unless my opponents were fielding 1940 allies or 1941 Russians.

If you're going to be building forces for 1939 – 45 in all theatres then you're going to have a lot of stuff.
Eventually.

Depending on the preferences of who you're playing, you might want to be doing a spot of creative substitution for a while or stick to one front and period.

In the long term someone who chooses Jerries can end up with a lot of models.
You want to consider what qualities appeal to you.
Do you want accurate models or robust cheap "wargames" quality miniatures.
If you settle for cheap n cheerfull now, are you later going to be replace these with more detailed accurate expensive models.
If you want accuracy then which model to buy in plastic kits is something you need to research for each model.
You can also expect to spend some time building each of them.
For example.
Dragon do very nice kits of some things, however, I would consider the revell Tiger a better choice.
Most Tigers would have zimmerit applied. But the revell tiger has no zimmerit.
Will this bother you or do you need to learn some modelling skills?
In my case, an enthusiastic friend of mine built and painted my tigers.
For some people, the idea of rolling out zimmerit very thin and texturing it on the model is fun.
For some, not so much.
You can also find your opinions change over a few years.
It's also a perfectly sensible choice to go cheap n cheerful initially and plan on gradually replacing with better quality stuff.

Just my thoughts….even if you are not an extreme rivet counter, you would struggle to make vehicles stretch across a variety of settings without a lot of winking at proxies…but that's a personal view.
My advice would be…don't try.
Pick a battle or campaign that engages you and sustains your interest. If that's Normandy, you can build up a modest battlegroup with Shermans, Fireflies etc, and Panzer IVHs and Panther As or Gs, with Tigers and Stugs for variety.
It then isn't too much of a leap to 1944 Eastern Front, because you'll already have the Germans.
Same then applies if you then want to head to Italy.

Plastic Soldier Company is great for the basic types in 1/72.

As others have said, tall order.
Tigers operated in specialist battalions. So I avoid those, but your collection, your call, but my inverse snobbery will not let me field them.

I'd also steer clear of the peculiarities that abound and stick to the workhorses that saw the Germans through the war.

Early war grey, later war the dark sand, the swap over point is effectively the battle of Kursk (yellow arriving earlier in teh year, grey all but gone by the years end), the desert has its own paint scheme. Not sure how nit-picky the folks you are playing with will be on that.

Consider Armourfast
link

Plastic Soldier Company
link

I found Frontline wargaming good in the past (resin, ok quality but were best bangs per buck)
frontlinewargaming.co.uk

20mm usually means units of 3 for tanks, 2 for SPGs

Mid to late war, the STuG and Marder did the main support work. So consider 2 early STuGs with short 75s (paint grey for Early War, 20 served in France, many more later and elsewhere), 2 later STuGs with long 75s (skirts if you want, but they tended to fall off), one of the 105mm armed STuGs, all in the Yellow/green/Brown for late war. Add a pair of Marders for mobile fire support. Consider a pair of PaK 4.7(T) on a Pz 1 chassis for early war.

So that is 9 models.

Tanks gets tricky. Though to be honest, the precise variants do not matter much with the Pz III and 4, what matters is does it have a short or a long gun, If a long gun, does it has skirts.

Tanks, the work horses:
Before Barbarossa
- The little Pz II was about half the engaged tank force. So if you are doing France and Poland, you will need those.
- Pz IV with short barrelled 75s provided fire support
- Pz IIIs has 37mm Guns and were supposed to have been withdrawn/rearmed after France.
- Much use was made of the Czech 35 and 38 models (neither saw service in the desert).
So as the base force,
3 panzer II, 3 Panzer III or more suitably/easier to obtain, Pz 38(t), 2 0r 3 Pz IVs

Barbarossa to Kursk:
- The short 50 armed Pz III was intended to be the main battle tank, the 37mm was not really used here (a few maybe, but a rarity, the were supposed to be re-armed or relegated to training). The longer barrelled version started to appear after the first winter.
- The Panzer IV f2 with the long 75 appeared as fire support after the first winter
All the pre Barbarossa tanks will do here, but add…
3 Pz III with Short 50s to supplement/replace your 38(T)s, 2 or 3 Pz III with long 50s and a pair of Pz IV f2s

Kursk onwards: paint in dark yellow base coat with the green and browm:
3 Pz III with long 50 and Skirts
3 Pz IV long 75 and 3 more with Skirts
3 Panthers

So for tank models,, that is 25 models to make sure you can cover the German workhorses all through the war in Europe. you can drop the 38(t)s and proxy short 50 Pz IIIs for the pre barbarossa games and bring that down to 22.

Desert:
The 38(t) did not serve there.
Much use of captured vehicles, consider marking up a pair of Armourfast Valentines as German (there is photo evidence of at least 1).

Weirdness/colour. If you wind up with an early war tank left over, paint it in late war colours and use it as the artillery observer. I have done that with a Pz II I have left over in my force (sometimes shows up as an Internal Security tank or a Marder units command vehicle).

Also please consider the Pak 97/38 75mm anti-tank gun, good for 42-45 and sits nicely in my poor foot pounder force (along with horse tows). As after all, only 25=30% of the German army was motorised at best.

Because Tigers were fielded in specialist battalions you can actually field them with either infantry or panzer forces. If you read Otto Carius' book Tigers in the Mud 502nd SPzAbt was sometimes supporting infantry divisions or 11th SSPGr division and at one point attached to Strachwitz's Panzer unit. Similar mixtures occurred with the other Tiger battalions.

Yes, Wolfgang Schneiders extensive and exhaustive studies have examples of Tigers being used in anything from entire battalions to pairs in support of pretty well any formation you care to name.

Luftwaffe Field Div regiment supported by a platoon of Tiger IIs? You've got it.

You really can't go wrong with a couple of Tigers, until you start collecting all the variants….