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"My Apologies to All" Topic


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Editor Julia18 Apr 2016 1:09 p.m. PST

To all TMP members.

I am very sorry for causing a big issue here on TMP. I deleted my post (Editor Julia Has a Request) after I read the 100+ comments.

Before I posted it here on TMP, I asked for Bill's permission because I don't want to cause a problem here on TMP. I am just an employee.

Breast Implants is my dream. It will make me more real woman as what I feel I am. I am a transgender since birth and it was not my choice. If I have a choice I would not choose to be one because it's very hard, but I can't lie about my feelings. It's hard to be in school, it's hard to find a job, and it's hard for those people who don't understand it. Sometimes I have to fake myself just to be accepted by society.

Not all people will understand it and I understand that.

Thank you so much for those who contributed. I appreciate it so much. It's a very big help.

Again, I am very sorry.

Editor Julia

Earl of the North18 Apr 2016 1:25 p.m. PST

My apologies if my feedback was taken as anything negative, which was more that I feel that this isn't the forum I'd expect to encounter such a request rather than any negative feelings or beliefs towards you or anyone else in your community.

Mako1118 Apr 2016 1:33 p.m. PST

No need for an apology.

GeoffQRF18 Apr 2016 1:36 p.m. PST

Julia,

I have no issue with you personally, with transgender people generally, or with your desire to have the procedure. That is your choice, it is a very personal thing and you have every right to be who you feel you are, whether that is genetically or mentally.

My comments were that this is a miniatures forum, frequented by people of all ages. While it carries with it a very wide remit of discussion topics, I felt (and still do) that this was not an appropriate place for that sort of request.

I wish you all the best for the future, but I feel that it was inappropriate for your employer to put you in this position in the first place, and thus in a position where you feel the need to apologise.

Geoff
QRF

Guy Innagorillasuit18 Apr 2016 1:46 p.m. PST

frequented by people of all ages

What's that got to do with anything?

GeoffQRF18 Apr 2016 1:50 p.m. PST

Because I don't think it is appropriate for children, who come here to look at toy soldiers, to end up following discussions on raising money for breast enhancements

I don't know, perhaps I am wrong there.

Hafen von Schlockenberg18 Apr 2016 1:58 p.m. PST

Have you looked at the Nude Figure board lately?

PrivateSnafu18 Apr 2016 2:08 p.m. PST

Geoff go have that pint.

Buck21518 Apr 2016 2:09 p.m. PST

Julia- like the others have said, an apology is not necessary. You did not hijack the board, but asked the owner (Bill) for permission, and he gave it. You crossed your "t's", and dotted your "i's" and lower-case "j's". Procedures were followed on your end. It's all cool…

- Scott

D A THB18 Apr 2016 2:10 p.m. PST

I did not see the post you mention but maybe it would be better to have an Editors board where such things can be discussed. That way members can opt out of seeing things that they either don't understand or would rather not be involved in.

Leadjunky18 Apr 2016 2:30 p.m. PST

Wow seems like I missed another nsfw topic. Good, but I would have liked to referenced the post when one of the editors sends another request for me to support for TMP.

Editor Julia18 Apr 2016 2:43 p.m. PST

I did not know it would cause an argument. Actually, before posting the GoFundMe, I said to Bill that I didn't really wanna ask help for it because I felt ashamed asking people about things for my self. At a young age, I started working for myself and for my family. I did actually quit college and find a job to help my family and myself because nobody would provide for my needs, not even my family. I had to do it because at first my mom didn't support me for what I feel. So I worked hard and proved to them that, even though I am a transgender, I can be someone you can be proud of. I can be someone who can help the family. I had to do it for my mom to accept me.

I am trying to save for it, it's just that I don't make so much to reach my dream. That's why I still post it here even though I don't really want to.

I wish I did not post it here.

Joes Shop Supporting Member of TMP18 Apr 2016 2:44 p.m. PST

No need to apologize. Unfortunately, people often respond to issues by bringing their own baggage with them.

cosmicbank18 Apr 2016 3:12 p.m. PST

Julia hope everything goes well for you and good luck on the project. In a week it will be something else lighting everyone up.

Coyotepunc and Hatshepsuut18 Apr 2016 3:29 p.m. PST

Julia, you did nothing wrong. No need to apologize. You know where we stand on these issues and why, and have our total support.

Bill's house, Bill's rules.

15th Hussar18 Apr 2016 3:56 p.m. PST

AGREED!

Bill should have publicly cleared a path for you before you had your say, Julia.

I may not agree with your request here, but I fully support YOU!!!

No harm done.

peterx Supporting Member of TMP18 Apr 2016 4:18 p.m. PST

Good luck in your life and your life changes, Julia.

Leadjunky18 Apr 2016 5:07 p.m. PST

"Bill should have publicly cleared a path….."

er, No. He should have respectfully said this is not the place.

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian18 Apr 2016 6:22 p.m. PST

I am a little sad today. When Julia asked me about making her request on the forum, I said that I thought that it would be fine, that the TMP community had matured and this would not be a 'big deal'. Obviously, I was wrong.

As I said on the other thread, I see no reason why someone who is part of the TMP community cannot ask for help for a medical expense, when they cannot afford it on their own. This has been done many times in the past, and nobody has complained before.

I recognize that not everyone is knowledgeable about transsexual issues. However, I was embarrassed for the wargaming community when I saw some of the prejudice and ignorance on display today.

A transsexual is someone whose 'mental gender' does not agree with their 'body gender'. One of the recognized treatments is to have surgery so that their bodies conform better to their self-image.

Now, because of your background, culture, religion or other views, you may disagree with what I just said. That's fine. Nobody is trying to force you to believe anything.

But the important thing is that this is what Editor Julia believes, and she is the one who has to live through it. Even if you cannot agree with her, I think you can respect her right to make decisions for herself.

You can then decide whether to help her or not. It is that simple. You don't need to judge her. You don't need to laugh at her. You don't need to bully her or disrespect her. It's a simple yes or no.

PrivateSnafu18 Apr 2016 8:47 p.m. PST

I'm with you on this Bill. I've been inexplicably thinking a lot about this today.

I wish the original thread could be preserved or resurrected. I think there was value in the discussion and argument. If it were to resurface I think it would be best if all the posters were made anonymous. Mistakes were made and no one should suffer any more for it.

There have been a couple incidents lately that have me thinking much, the white male terrorism bullcrap, Winston's bullying, and now this.

I don't know what I've concluded other than we are not really expanding our consciousnesses unless we are right at the tip of the spear in conflict.

Julia was brave to make the post and you are to be commended for your support.

ps. This is miniature related because I was so dwelling on this while painting my Hoplites I needed to check in on this thread.

wrgmr118 Apr 2016 9:16 p.m. PST

Personally I feel it would have been better to test the waters in the Lounge. Those of us who pay to be on this forum, tend to have a tad more investment.

While most of us understand where you are coming from, it is a gaming forum. Thus, some may not be onside or feel it is appropriate to ask for this kind of support. If perhaps you wanted to kickstart a new Napoleonic line of figures, there would be lots of interest and support.

You have my humble apologies if I have said anything inappropriate.

I will also say, you are very brave to have asked this in the first place.

GeoffQRF18 Apr 2016 10:06 p.m. PST

I remain highly disappointed that Bill is trying to turn this into something personal and suggest that "anybody who disagrees with me must be embarrassed or homophobic against transsexual people"

NOBODY said they had any issue with Julia personally, with transsexuals in general or with her request per se and I am highly disappointed in Bills attempts to personally undermine people who, while clearly stating they had no issue with Julia or transsexuals, felt that The Miniatures Page was not an appropriate place for someone to ask for money for non-essential medical procedure, and while I fully appreciate the strength of desire of a transsexual to take further steps to becoming who they feel comfortable, it is not a life saving procedure There are plenty of women out there who also feel less complete due to naturally having small breasts. Indeed there are men who equally feel less adequate due to a short length. Will we be accepting requests for funding for all cosmetic surgery (and it is cosmetic) from any individual who feels they are less of a man or woman due to being naturally unendowed? i have no issue with the desire for such a procedure, merely that this is not an appropriate place for such a request. Open a Facebook group, open a website, whatever. This is a Miniature Page.

However what I found worse was that while nobody who commented had any issue with the request itself, merely stated that they felt that this was not an appropriate place for such a request (and for those that saw the original thread, there were a dozen people before me who had already expressed a similar opinion), it was attempted to twist it into "anyone suggesting it is inappropriate must be homophobic". That's a group attack. It is sad that Julia lives in a society within her own community that finds it much harder to accept transsexuals than perhaps we do in the west, but that doesn't make a miniatures forum any more of an appropriate place for such a request.

Ditto, there were no insults agaibst Julia. Indeed everyone was fully supportive of her in general, merely that this was not an appropriate place for such a request.

However not only was this attempted to be turned against me personally, but it was implied that the Editor had spoken with my business partner who was ok with it. This was a lie. My business partner had not been consulted and I am sure that he will be less than pleased when I discuss who his opinion was assumed and suggested. I know that he too will have no issue with Julia or her sexuality, and may even not be that concerned about whether or not a miniatures page is such an appropriate place to request funding for such a medical procedure, but he will be extremely annoyed that it was suggested that a conversation with him had already taken place and that his opinion was taken in vain.

To reiterate, it is not the original request itself that will cause me to discuss our business relationship here, but that it was an inappropriate request for a miniatures forum in the first instance, that it was attempted to suggest that I had something personally against transsexuals for having the audacity to suggest that it was an inappropriate place, or even here that I am somewhat less than mature for such a suggestion, the implication that a discussion had taken place between the editor and my business partner in an attempt to delegitimise my opinion that this was an inappropriate place to make such a request, and a veiled threat that withdrawal of support for this website, on the basis that it was suggested that I had a personal issue with transsexuals, could be used to suggest that my business had something against transsexuals.

PrivateSnafu18 Apr 2016 10:26 p.m. PST

Geoff,

What do you think you can possibly gain by continuing to participate in this discussion? Cut your losses.

Don't you think you could make better use of your time remastering some of your molds, conducting more QC, or quaffing one?

GeoffQRF18 Apr 2016 10:35 p.m. PST

I am a bit busy answering the emails of support I have received

PrivateSnafu18 Apr 2016 10:43 p.m. PST

Or that! Perception is reality and I think the SJW mafia will make this unwinnable for you. Take it for what its worth.

GeoffQRF18 Apr 2016 10:47 p.m. PST

…actually, opinion to date would seem to suggest the opposite

SoW Reddog19 Apr 2016 12:54 a.m. PST

Well I had 20 quid burning a hole in my pocket. Never bought from Geoff before but I will be trying some of his products now.

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian19 Apr 2016 2:22 a.m. PST

Honestly, that isn't what was taking place. There was no bullying or laughing from TMP membership.

Really? Comparing her request to asking for a bass boat? Using the phrase 'fake boobs'? People were acting like idiots.

Joes Shop Supporting Member of TMP19 Apr 2016 3:05 a.m. PST

"People were acting like idiots."

Yes, some of them were.

Moonraker Miniatures19 Apr 2016 5:49 a.m. PST

Geoff makes some good points in a reasonable and cogent fashion.

Bill, not for the first time, hoists up some straw men and then demolishes them with gusto. Which is a shame.

Stepman319 Apr 2016 5:54 a.m. PST

Wargaming? We don't need no stinkin' wargaming!!! Not when we can polarize the entire TMP community…

nazrat19 Apr 2016 6:08 a.m. PST

+1 to Geoff, and +100 to Moonraker. This is just sad.

Buckeye AKA Darryl19 Apr 2016 6:47 a.m. PST

Bear in mind that when an anorexic person sees themselves as fat, they are often advised to seek counseling as it is a mental disorder. Strange how we accept someone seeing themselves as transgender as "okay" instead of having them seek counseling as well.

Bill, you are SO wrong on this one, and I keep seeing YOU acting like a brown shirt and censoring pretty harmless posts, like mine from yesterday asking about other gaming sites, and Stepman's from just a few moments ago. Really, that is more like bullying (or maybe a case of "waah, I am taking my ball home") than anything that was said about this whole "use a gaming site to ask for a boob job".

So, go ahead and dawghouse me…it will be my first!

Buckeye AKA Darryl19 Apr 2016 6:49 a.m. PST

And +100 to Geoff, Moonraker, and SoW.

Stepman319 Apr 2016 7:10 a.m. PST

^^^THIS^^^

I followed the guidelines. I didn't attack anyone…

WarWizard19 Apr 2016 7:26 a.m. PST

The home page of this site has a banner that reads:
"A web magazine for miniature wargamers"

Really the only reason why I frequent this community.

Guy Innagorillasuit19 Apr 2016 7:59 a.m. PST

Because I don't think it is appropriate for children, who come here to look at toy soldiers, to end up following discussions on raising money for breast enhancements

So you find it objectionable for children to know that women have breast enhancements or that transsexuals exist? Maybe both? Why? There was certainly nothing lascivious in the post or the replies.

GeoffQRF19 Apr 2016 8:02 a.m. PST

Well if you don't get it, I'm sure me explaining it will make no difference. I've had an awful lot of emails from people today who do.

Guy Innagorillasuit19 Apr 2016 8:38 a.m. PST

I find your assertion that I won't understand your explanation personally insulting. I'm quite capable of understanding other viewpoints, including those with which I don't agree.

If you want me to understand, you can tell me. Because right now it appears that you seem to think that speaking about transexuals or breast augmentation is inherently lewd.

Pretending that your opponent is unreachable is a low tactic in any sort of civil discussion.

GeoffQRF19 Apr 2016 8:49 a.m. PST

I'm sorry that you are offended but I am under no obligation to explain myself to yoU

GeoffQRF19 Apr 2016 8:50 a.m. PST

I am sorry that you are offended but I am under no obligation to explain myself to you

GeoffQRF19 Apr 2016 8:52 a.m. PST

I'm sorry that you feel offended but I am under no obligation to explain myself to you

Weasel19 Apr 2016 9:04 a.m. PST

This will be my only post on the topic.


There's two separate issues people are shouting about.

A:
Whether personal requests for money are appropriate for the website.

B:
What your opinions are on transgender people.


One of these is a pretty apt topic for TMP talk.

The other is crap that belongs on facebook or reddit.

Personal logo David Manley Supporting Member of TMP19 Apr 2016 9:08 a.m. PST

Elsewhere in a thread that disappeared for no apparent reason I said that, whilst I still like visiting TMP there have been too many bizarre occurrences of late and it is becoming less fun to be here than it has in the past, Not only that but the site is, sadly, becoming a laughing stock amongst the wargaming community.

This subject is but one example I'm afraid.

I hope this is a temporary aberration and things get back to something like normal.

PrivateSnafu19 Apr 2016 9:10 a.m. PST

Geoff,

It may be worth considering through all the emails of support you are receiving that your perception of the events may be skewed. What you can't hear are people who are making a decision to not make a purchase from you or are being silent in their disagreement. Bathing in the glow of your supporters may have the unintended consequence of turning their voices into a chorus of mere yes-men and sycophants.

You seem very sure about your rightness on the matter, but you may also notice that some of the more seasoned, vociferous, and wise members are not touching this with a ten foot pole. I'm trying to be sincere here. Do as you will, but do it at your own peril. It will probably turn out all fine but I'd hate to see it go badly.

Clearly you and Bill have got some broken fences and you will mend them or not. Some of the things you said are very disturbing. There is a truth in there somewhere, I don't know what it is.

For me this boils down to a question of appropriateness. Generally, I do not believe that GoFundMe requests are appropriate on a forum like this. There seems to be some agreement that if a request is miniature related it could be tolerated. There also seems to be some tolerance and precedence that a medical need would be ok. It seems life-saving over life-changing is the standard being suggested. I'm not qualified nor do I choose to make that judgement.

There were a lot of people who made flippant remarks and jokes and I think that those should just be treated as mistakes. We all make them and I only think you should be penalized if you continue to make them over and again. I believe in an idea that can be summarized in one word "bygones". Don't say "I'm inclined to laugh it off." Do that, to yourself, and not laugh in someone's face.

Again, I don't support GoFundMe requests, however in this case it was a request allowed by Chief Editor Bill and should be permitted. It was probably duffed, granted. Bill makes a point about supporting a community member but who is Julia? No offense, but I initially saw her as an employee of Bill not so much a community member. I've never seen her participate in any discussion or make a fool of herself like so many of us do (myself included). I now realize she is actually part of the community but people don't feel invested. That's what makes the request come off as digital panhandling.

The other part of the story here is that it wasn't really a disagreement over a GoFundMe campaign as much as what the subject was. Whatever you feel about LGBT issues it is disingenuous to think it wasn't about the content of the request. The arguments were flimsy at best. Kid friendly, blah! Don't take me for a fool. If there was ever Faux Hissy Fit Outrage on TMP this is it!

People will argue this, think me stupid, and even insult me over this. If you need to go ahead. I'm using this as a way to expand the way I think about mental health issues and find compassion where I did not think I had any.

GeoffQRF19 Apr 2016 9:20 a.m. PST

Actually I have two trade offers, as well as support from long standing members, existing and new customers… So perhaps they are not that far off track.

My point, right from the outset and on previous contentious issues, is that this is not an appropriate forum for that type of request. You seem to be drawing your own conclusions about my feelings from that, and in many cases are mistaken.

Guy Innagorillasuit19 Apr 2016 9:30 a.m. PST

My point, right from the outset and on previous contentious issues, is that this is not an appropriate forum for that type of request.

And if that had been the only point you made, I would probably be inclined to believe you without further explanation. However, your concerns about child-friendliness are more than a bit telling, and I think you're concerned about the object of the request more than the appropriateness of asking for donations here.

GeoffQRF19 Apr 2016 9:39 a.m. PST

I'm sure you can find whatever reasons you like to challenge it

Guy Innagorillasuit19 Apr 2016 9:44 a.m. PST

Since you're unwilling or unable to clear things up, I guess that's where it will stand.

Black Scorpion19 Apr 2016 10:10 a.m. PST

I and many others voiced concern that this wasn't the place for for such a thing or any personal requests for funding. No big deal, just an opinion.

What's much more concerning is how the original topic is now deleted, a new one started which completely mis represents what was said on both sides.
The original post had none of the nuance and subtlety of the issue that's now being offered, it looked like spam.. I thought it was until I saw the editor has posted it.
No one objected to 'what' the funding was for only 'where' it was being advertised.

Instead of Bill saying 'I know its controversial but I've made the call it's ok' he seems to be twisting things and accusing and going on the attack.

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