Rich Bliss | 05 Apr 2016 7:23 a.m. PST |
There have been several threads lately in which the topic of Vendors and Flea Market have been brought up, usually in connection with attendance. I wonder if the advent of on-line sales has changed people buying habits sufficiently to impact the economics for vendors to attend conventions. I think, historically, that many people would plan to attend conventions largely for the purpose of shopping either at the flea market (bargains!) or in the vendor hall. However, with more and more manufacturers and vendors having an effective internet presence, I've found it more likely to buy on-line. Are there others that have experienced this shift? Could this be one of the factors that are causing declines in convention sales and attendance? On the other hand, attendance at conventions like Gen-Con and Adepticon are increasing. What is driving this? Official tournaments with prizes? Convention exclusives? Something else? Any thoughts? |
Timmo uk | 05 Apr 2016 8:48 a.m. PST |
I'm sure UK to US will have significant differences in consumer patterns but I read that last year Salute had 7,000 through the doors. In previous years the quoted figure has been 5-6,000. If those figures are true of course folks may be attending to window shop and choose what to buy on-line later. My spending is split pretty much 50:50. I like to pick up a decent size order at Salute – it's cost effective to do so but otherwise I do small on-line orders. |
GypsyComet | 05 Apr 2016 8:58 a.m. PST |
I watched the convention flea market fade quite a bit in eBay's first five or six years, but as their policies shifted away from casual sellers and toward merchants the flea markets recovered. The spending habits of the two remain different. I take a list to eBay or other online stores, while I take only a budget to flea markets. |
Flashman14 | 05 Apr 2016 10:27 a.m. PST |
I've complained about this a lot. I usually only get to attend one day so I use it for shopping and partially to skirt shipping and taxes. I think if I had done the math I would have stopped going a few years ago. I do still go with the hope that I may find something surprising I hadn't come for. |
TSD101 | 05 Apr 2016 10:46 a.m. PST |
Its just that it gets harder and harder to find stuff I "need" in the vendor hall. Most of it is accessible 24/7 online. Half the vendors I can disregard right away because they cover things or periods which do not interest me. Sometimes the Flea Market has interesting or hard to find stuff. Its just that simple. I was glad the guy with Scenics came but after 2 conventions I heard he was already done with us. |
Mako11 | 05 Apr 2016 10:49 a.m. PST |
I don't go to a lot of conventions, but the ones I have gone to I usually spend most of the time gaming, and not shopping. Took a bunch of stuff to sell at the flea market, and only sold a group of jets out of the lot, and one ship. Had a lot of stuff for sale, but no one seemed to want any of it, so it really wasn't worth bothering taking all of it to the convention to try to sell. |
TodCreasey | 05 Apr 2016 10:59 a.m. PST |
If someone sells what I want at a convention I will almost always wait and buy it there. I likely spend about 75% of my gaming budget at Cold Wars and Cangames. With shipping anywhere from 25 – 50% it still makes sense to shop direct from the dealer. |
79thPA | 05 Apr 2016 11:03 a.m. PST |
I will peruse the dealer hall and flea market to see if something grabs me, but I haven't gone to a convention with shopping as one of my goals for the last 20 or 30 years. |
mbsparta | 05 Apr 2016 11:07 a.m. PST |
My tastes in shopping have changed over the years. I am looking for painted miniatures at a reasonable cost. I still find the conventions the very best location to see, in hand, what I am buying. As for the other odds and ends of gaming it is so much easier to order them online. But when its all said and done I tend to spend most of the cash I take to the cons. I believe we need to support the vendors and flea market in order to keep them returning. Good friends, good games and good shopping are what makes a convention a destination location. Mike B |
Old Glory | 05 Apr 2016 12:25 p.m. PST |
I am convinced that the decline in attendance in the U.S is a direct result of the computer and the ability to view/purchase the product from the comfort of home. Heard this from a good number of gamers = "with the amount of money I would spend on going to a convention I can purchase several armies". Lack of sales tax = the postage. Regards Russ Dunaway |
civildisobedience | 05 Apr 2016 12:36 p.m. PST |
As for other cons' success, I imagine there is a lot at play. But if HMGS is going to seriously attempt to go after that kind of success, they are going to have to change their attitudes and how they do things. Example. A friend and I went to Origins last year. We were standing on the non-prereg line, which was very long. So we whipped out my ipad and both of us preregistered and walked up to the open prereg line. All done in three minutes. HIMGS, on the other hand, shuts down prereg a MONTH before the convention sometimes, and the non-prereg line usually becomes a nightmare. You can't mistreat people and expect them to come back for more. You can't scream "volunteers" as though that makes everything better (and it's not really true either…has anyone ever seen a cost disclosure on what HMGS spends per "volunteer" on rooms, food, etc.?) It's time for HMGS to put on its big boy pants and step up, and it's time for people to stop making excuses. That goes for managing dealers. I read the other day on here somewhere about prospective dealers who couldn't even get a call back when they were interested in taking some space. How about going to dealers who dropped out, offering them extra tables as a bonus for coming back? How about offering extra tables to dealers who agree to bring more stock (nothing has driven me from the dealer hall to the Internet like the blank stare before someone says, "well, we only brought two bags of those…" It goes for GMs too. Stop whining about them getting free admission. Stop requiring them to submit months and months in advance. Stop requiring them to be HMGS members. The work and effort of running a decent game makes free admission a meager reward. And GMs, if HMGS stops treating you like some beggar on the street mooching free admission, respond by showing some pride in your games. Put out some good terrain, pay attention and keep the game flowing. If you gate a problem player, show him the door. Quality and success don't happen, and whining or patting oneself on the back (or making excuses) is rarely part of the recipe |
historygamer | 05 Apr 2016 12:56 p.m. PST |
Buy that man a drink! :-) |
TSD101 | 05 Apr 2016 1:07 p.m. PST |
they are going to have to change their attitudes and how they do things. A man can dream. HMGS, on the other hand, shuts down prereg a MONTH before the convention I cannot understand this, or the thinking behind it. I don't know its simply a terrible system, or if they're hoping to price gouge people for more money at the door because they wont know if they can make it until the last minute. Both are worrisome. has anyone ever seen a cost disclosure on what HMGS spends per "volunteer" on rooms, food, etc.? No, and the members should know this information. Stop requiring them to submit months and months in advance. This. A million times this. Pre reg opened a week BEFORE Cold Wars was even held. Ridiculous. Closing games submission, little more than 3 weeks after Cold Wars ended is lunacy. Not enough time to come up with and playtest a scenario. So what does that do? Means more GMs will submit without proper scenario playtesting. Oh joy. They should extend game submission a month past that. Even if it doesn't make the nice book PEL, there should be an online one and an accessible list at Historicon for added games. |
grtbrt | 05 Apr 2016 1:13 p.m. PST |
I think that the above post (civildisobedience) hits on a lot of good points . I think that it all comes down to 1 very simple thing. HMGS (and a lot of it's vocal members) still believe that they are the best miniature gaming convention around and that people/gamers don't have other options. Until that misguided view changes nothing else will . Part of the problem is that a significant number of the attendees(or the ones posting here and elsewhere ) are content with the mediocrity that is HMGS conventions. and HMGS does a very good job of living up to their expectations . I am not one of those -I want HMGS to put on spectacular conventions .Ones that people are talking about in a good way and cannot wait to go to next year .Not ones that you question your decision to go to . Frankly HMGS BOD should put their egos aside and reach out to the organizers of US cons that people are excited about , but they won't simply because they see no need to(except for sending a BOD member to Britain -yes supposedly they are not paying ,BUT since it is an authorized trip for a non-profit he can deduct it from taxes -so in a sense he is gaining from it ) |
Miniatureships | 05 Apr 2016 4:14 p.m. PST |
HMGS has it's problems, but to address the original question, the answer would be yes, internet sales have effected conventions, just as internet sales have effected all types of standard retail sales. Second, when comparing UK and US shows, one also needs to think of distance involved. The UK is an Island. And in a couple of hours you can be at a major show. Where the US shows look to draw people that are willing or were willing to drive up to 1500 miles to be part of show. Maybe, what the internet has simply done is made the need for the drive obsolete. Look, how much UK stuff do you even see at the US shows anymore? HMGS-east has no booth marked "Perry Miniatures" or "Warlord Miniatures". Gone are the days of seeing a Bicorne, Redoubt, Front Rank, or any other UK manufacturer stand out at the shows. Sure, there is Eureka from down under, but they all have to rely on other US vendors, who fly their own personal banner, to represent them, and how often do you see some of those same UK vendors then advertise special discounts and free shipping as that representative is doing a major US show? Thus the push is towards the internet rather than allowing things to be seen at shows. Personally, this is why I feel the flea market does so much to drain the dealer halls at HMGS-east shows. People are looking there for what is no longer in the dealer hall, and that is a first come first served place and why it is filled with so many second hand vendors (Basically being the flea market avoids being disappointed that the person selling you those hard to find items and not wanting to pay postage, can't get you any more of what you want. Lastly, I find the shows that are growing are also the shows that don't have to deal with the flea market question. They just have a dealer hall. |
GypsyComet | 05 Apr 2016 6:44 p.m. PST |
And by "their" I meant eBay. |
rmaker | 05 Apr 2016 8:28 p.m. PST |
Comparing any wargames convention, especially one oriented to miniatures, with GenCon is pointless. You might as well compare them to WorldCon or any other big SF con. GenCon has long been a media convention. I doubt that half the attendees are even casual gamers. |
YogiBearMinis | 05 Apr 2016 8:38 p.m. PST |
My experiences going to a few very recent GenCons are that there is more gaming and less talking going on there than at HMGS and similar conventions. A certain percentage of those conventions are CosPlay or what have you types, not really "gamers," but the overwhelming majority are playing many games each and every day during the convention. I find the energy at GenCon, despite the crowds, exhilarating. Now, it is certainly easier to run a board game than a minis game, and not as pretty to look at, but those people playing are certainly there to roll dice. |
civildisobedience | 05 Apr 2016 9:15 p.m. PST |
HMGS has a lot of self-inflicted wounds. It is unfortunate, but it is true. And with all due respect, those who mindlessly defend much of this are as much a bar to improvement as anyone else. I'm a member of a gaming club with 40 members. For three conventions now, we've been trying to set up as a club, to have a dedicated spot where we would run a dozen or more games. We were directed to set up the club on the online registration system, but it simply didn't work. We had people trying to get emails answered on what to do. I'm not banging on anybody in particular, but let it suffice to say that very little effort is made to accommodate people trying to do meaningful things to contribute the conventions. How about the seminars? There was a time when there were many varied and interesting ones. Is it my imagination, or has that dropped off too? Is there any way to encourage rules writers or others to do a few more of those? How about companies sponsoring presentations and Q&A sessions on their rules? How about some reserved parking for GMS (maybe GMS running games over a certain size) outside the ballroom. How about stop shoving games into the smelly Host Room when there is CLEARLY lots of space in the dealer hall? How about HMGS taking a role in facilitating companies sponsoring games…perhaps some kind of discount cards or something. How about a room showing movies where people could hang between events? Origins has this. Improve the game registration system to make it easier to facilitate more complex games, e.g. ones that have multiple sessions. Bite the bullet on replacing bad software and systems so there isn't a constant cause of delays and hassles. Why does HMGS need game reg three MONTHS before the convention to get a game in the PEL? It's ludicrous. Why do they close prereg weeks, even a month before the convention? |
ARMY Strong | 06 Apr 2016 5:42 a.m. PST |
I agree with many, if vendors don't give us a reason to buy at the Cons i.e. sales or convention specials why buy the stuff there, Russ is right on line I don't pay tax depends on how much you buy for free shipping, some vendors charge tax and no sale so why buy? Gamers aren't stupid. I buy to support friends who sell there. Just some observations. |
Charlie 12 | 06 Apr 2016 8:56 a.m. PST |
To return to the OP (and away from the usual, repetitive whining by the "usual suspects"), the market has changed and irrevocably so. The economics of packing up a ton of inventory and schlepping to a con just doesn't make sense anymore. I know of more than one vendor who wouldn't come even if the tables were free. The successful retailers are heavily involved in e-commerce, so much so, that they've abandoned any brick-and-mortar presence. The reason is simple: That's what the buying public wants. As for giving out deep convention special discounts, that's a non-starter. The supposed idea of a captive audience of buyers doesn't hold water anyway when those same buyers can use the vendor's virtual store. Once upon time the idea that a con's vendor room was the world's biggest specialty hobby shop is long gone. If you want to know where that shop is now, its real simple: You're staring at it…. And one more thing: At the last years CW, I was hanging out with one vendor when more than one customer would come up, look over the inventory, and when asked if they needed any help (like any good retailer would ask) was told "oh, I'm just looking. I'll put in an online order when I get home". The vendor just looked at me, wondering "Why in hell did I bother coming…". |
Rich Bliss | 06 Apr 2016 9:12 a.m. PST |
So, given the changes, it would seem we should expect a steady decline in vendors attending conventions. The question is "Should we expect a similar decline in general attendance?" If yes, what can or should we do to adjust to it? |
Charlie 12 | 06 Apr 2016 9:17 a.m. PST |
On the other hand, attendance at conventions like Gen-Con and Adepticon are increasing. What is driving this? Official tournaments with prizes? Convention exclusives? Something else? That's easy: Different demographics. Adepticon, Origins and Gencon market to an different demographic than the HMGS cons. They're scifi/fantasy first with some historicals on the side. HMGS is historicals first with some scifi/fantasy on the side. The difference in those two markets is as dramatic as night and day. And given the outright hostility that some members in the historical crowd have for anything scifi/fantasy, I don't see that changing. How many times have there been grumblings that the HMGS BOD allows too many scifi/fantasy games in the cons? Too many. Can HMGS change to make things easier/faster/cleaner? Certainly, and they should. But if you think that Hcon is going to rival Gencon in attendance, then you're just delusional. |
Rich Bliss | 06 Apr 2016 9:22 a.m. PST |
I'm not even worried about HCon. I'll never go again. My 'home' convention is Little Wars and I'm pretty happy withnthnway it is, but I've seen plenty of complaints/comparisons. And it seems that the concern is which direction, not absolute magnitude. |
Dervel | 06 Apr 2016 9:22 a.m. PST |
What I found at Cold Wars was higher prices than what I could get online….? So my regular shopping is almost exclusively online. Sometimes from the same vendors. The occasional cool stuff I want is always limited supply and grabbed up before I get to the hall (my fault I prioritize gaming over hitting the hall). So for me the vendor hall while fun for eye candy is not generating much in the way of impulse buys like it used to in the bad old days. I still love to hit the hall, but it is a smaller and smaller part of the convention for me. Also, it does not help that at the Host is over hill and Dale while the Flea Market is right next store to where I spend most of my gaming time. I can pop into the flea market between rounds of a game. I have to plan time to venture into the vendor hall. Time is a precious commodity for me at the convention. Even at Origins the last few years it seemed the major game companies were trying to integrate themselves more and more into the prime gaming area and time slots…. i.e. it was becoming more about demonstration of the products than straight sales. Now I am certain the Demos generated impulse buys – at least the work on me because I am weak with no willpower:( |
historygamer | 06 Apr 2016 9:33 a.m. PST |
"Adepticon, Origins and Gencon market to an different demographic than the HMGS cons. They're scifi/fantasy first with some historicals on the side. HMGS is historicals first with some scifi/fantasy on the side." So why try to duplicate existing cons? Instead, shouldn't HMGS be focused on what it's supposedly all about? Shouldn't it be marketing to their niche of the hobby instead of trying to compete with other cons that have different missions and goals? Isn't it just possible that this loss of focus contributed to HMGS' loss of attendance? The economics of the dealers has changed radically and will continue to do so. At the end of the day HMGS is a gaming convention, so why not showcase their differences from the other cons instead of trying to emmulate them? Isn't that a brighter line dividing them giving people with that particular interest more reason to go, not less? |
Ottoathome | 06 Apr 2016 9:36 a.m. PST |
Not a bit. I avoid e- shopping like the plague. |
Rich Bliss | 06 Apr 2016 9:50 a.m. PST |
Otto- Your loss. I find it the most effective way to get what I want. Based on the trends, it would seem that you really need to up your buying to keep vendors coming. |
Charlie 12 | 06 Apr 2016 11:50 a.m. PST |
Instead, shouldn't HMGS be focused on what it's supposedly all about? Shouldn't it be marketing to their niche of the hobby instead of trying to compete with other cons that have different missions and goals? Isn't it just possible that this loss of focus contributed to HMGS' loss of attendance? If it wants to grow the hobby, then they need to stretch their outreach. The cons already have a strong scifi/fantasy presence. Build on that by putting historicals in the likes of Gencon and Origins to draw new players into the mix. Besides, many historical gamers are also into scifi/fantasy. Some started out in scifi/fantasy. On the other hand, if you want persist in the "historicals good, scifi/fantasy bad" mantra, then don't be surprised when attendance drops and interest in historicals wane…. |
Ottoathome | 06 Apr 2016 11:59 a.m. PST |
Dear Rliss Sorry, no. Too many attempts to stealidenties and have already tossed off four bills that tried to say I ordered things, which I traced to on line purchases. Besides I order from the same vendors all the time, I know them, I know the line, have the models numbers memorized. |
Ottoathome | 06 Apr 2016 12:12 p.m. PST |
Dear Charlie 12 You betray your lack of knowledge of the History of HMGS. It was formed when after many years of effort at Origins and Atlanticon, by miniature gamers who really truly and admirably put on games at those conventions, and were pretty much given the cold shoulder and the contempt of Board and RPG gamers. In fact the camels back breaking straw for Wally Simon who started the whole thing was when Systems 7, a board game, was voted the "best miniatures rule system." It was chosen by people who knew nothing about mini gamers and were not miniature gamers. Please understand. HMGS was FORMED to separate itself rrom Board Gaming, Role Playing, and Fantasy Sci-Fi gaming because it was being swamped at Origins, Gencon, and Atlanticon, and THESE CONVENTIONS DID NOT WANT US THERE AND TREATED US WITH CONTEMPT. This is what Wally, Pat, and a host of others, including several still on this list and on this side of the grass felt, and we wanted out own convention. WE DID NOT WANT TO JUST BE A FOOTNOTE TO A FANTASY SCI-FI CONVENTION. This we got. In the whole history of the HMGS however there has NEVER been any attempt to systematically castigate or prevent sci-fi and a-historical and fantasy gamers from the HMGS conventions, though others, including the WBC, World Board Gaming Championships, which have since moved on to Pittsburg, HAVE IT IN THEIR BYLAWS THAT NO MINIATURE GAMES ARE TO BE ALLOWED AT THEIR CONVENTIONS! If you don't believe me look at their event scheduling page. So… it is not the minigamers who are tossing out the Board, Sci Fi, and Role Playing Gamers, it's the other way around. In this vein I might add that I, along with Walt O'Hara, Rich Low, Andy Turlington, Jim Mcwee and several others a few years ago set up TRIADCON , which was supposed to be an effort to reunite the branches of wargames. This failed primarily because the mini gamrs were doing all the work, and the board gamers were doing all the complaining, and did not want mini games in the convention. Since them THE WEEKEND, which is run by myself and is put on with lots of mini games, role playing games, and board Games, is this year having a Sci-Fi theme and has many sci-fi games in addition to historicals, but has WELCOMED about two dozen board gamers who want to go to our show in Lancaster rather than truck out to Pittsburg for the WBC. We have welcomed them with open arms and in fact paid for additional room for them. That's because all of us do board games as well. All of the people involved with The WEEKEND (this year on June 17th to 19th) are big miniatures GM's and put on huge extravaganza games, and we play Board Games and Role Playing, and SCI Fi games as well. Most notable from LAST years convention is Tracy Johnsons's "After the Holocoust" a reworking of the SPI classic game of recovery from a thermo-nuclear war, on a 6 x 10 foot table, with lots of fun and a hilarious back story. So no one has any cause to throw intolerance or exclusiveness in the face of HMGS or any of the miniature gaming conventions. |
Old Glory | 06 Apr 2016 4:11 p.m. PST |
You could also get killed in a car wreck on the way to the convention --or be the victim of a strong armed robbery --or God knows what? My comment was not based on my thoughts – as I said -- I have been hearing this for some years now from real live consumers. Either way --it is what it is. I think another handicap is that the growing conventions are -- I believe -- privately owned so decisions can be made strictly for business reasons? Regards Russ Dunaway |
Charlie 12 | 06 Apr 2016 5:37 p.m. PST |
Otto- Yes, I know the history. And it is totally irrelevant. This is 2016, not the beginning of time. Putting several historical games on at a Gencon or Origins or whatever under the HMGS banner isn't going to threaten the 3 cons. And it'll get the genre exposed to a different demo group (some of whom may have no idea that it exists). If that's so horrific, then we have much bigger problems in play… |
Charlie 12 | 06 Apr 2016 5:50 p.m. PST |
Russ- Totally agree with you. |
Charlie 12 | 06 Apr 2016 5:54 p.m. PST |
I avoid e- shopping like the plague. Welcome to the alive and thriving 1980s…. |
vagamer63 | 06 Apr 2016 9:13 p.m. PST |
As someone who doesn't get to as many HMGS Cons now as I used to I'd like to offer the following observations and comments. First, when I'm able to make it to one of the "Big 3" I generally make a pre-order to a couple, or more vendors for pick up at the show. This saves the postage, and helps put a little coin in their pockets for the show. Often I find I forgot to include a few items in my order, so I pick those up also! Do folks forget the vendors are at these Cons to support the gamers, and not the show? They are there to make money to be sure, in on-site sales as well as future on-line sales! Especially, when so many gamers complain on this very site (TMP) how they very much prefer to "see and touch" a line of figures etc. prior to making any purchase! Without the support of the vendors most cons currently in existence could never take place! Going back 40 plus years ago, I remember a time when GENCON and Origins were the only two things going. Not to mention that at that time Historical Miniatures Players were treated more like "Chester the Molester" back in those days! Thus when Historicon and HMGS were born it became Nirvana to most of us in many ways, and it felt good to be welcomed out in public along with a group of the like minded! I don't mind the occasional Sci-Fi or Fantasy game, as I've played some of those with my local group so no big deal! However, we don't need to become the next GENCON, ADEPTICON, or WhateverCon! We do need to take a good hard look at ourselves though, and if change is needed, as it appears, then we need to make those changes to update/upgrade our game (Conventions)!! Many have stated that more benefits should be handed out to GMs! At this point I disagree! Case in point is exemplified in the following link from this very site! TMP link Of the 3 pictures of games being played I will say the following: If I were a member of this club I would be embarrassed to have these three games posted on a widely viewed hobby web site, as an illustration of the types of games our club was capable of doing at a Major Convention of any kind! I'm just saying! Why do so many folks want HMGS to carry the water at other shows as mentioned? If you belong to a club, or just a group of Historical Gamers why don't you take the initiative to put on games at the big Professional Shows on your own? Organize yourselves, plan, and take action instead of waiting for someone else to take the lead! Then contact HMGS to supply you with some flyers, placards, or advertising support! If you're waiting for someone else to take your idea for action don't be surprised if you're waiting a very long time for nothing to happen! Are changes in the 3 HMGS shows needed? Yes!! The best way to start making changes though is to start with yourself! First and foremost, stop complaining so much, and start doing something positive! Then, you can say, "See what I did that works!" I also totally agree the first thing HMGS should do is completely dump the current registration system, and collecting data that as near as anyone can tell serves absolutely NO useful purpose for as long as they have been collecting all that information! Go back to simple paper and pencil. It's better to get people in the door, then have them standing in a useless line wasting time! Especially when the Wi-Fi continues to be so disastrously unreliable! Then all those Volunteers standing around Registration doing nothing can pick up a pencil, and get put to use!! Maybe it's time to run the Flea Market as a one 4 hour session on Saturday Morning! Raise the table prices a little, and limit the number of available tables! That should weed out some of those that don't really need to be there! It's worth a try at least! |
Millercop16 | 07 Apr 2016 1:51 a.m. PST |
Many have stated that more benefits should be handed out to GMs! At this point I disagree! Case in point is exemplified in the following link from this very site! TMP link Of the 3 pictures of games being played I will say the following: If I were a member of this club I would be embarrassed to have these three games posted on a widely viewed hobby web site, as an illustration of the types of games our club was capable of doing at a Major Convention of any kind! I'm just saying! WOW are you kidding me! Thats a bit harsh that group puts on games every con and takes care of kids with free armies. Nicest guys in the world. To be honest just a little taken back by this comment. |
Moe the Great | 07 Apr 2016 6:04 a.m. PST |
I don't know how the vendors are doing, "Making more or making less then usual, but at the Cold Wars Flea market, I made $1,500 USD in three hours. So IMHO the flea market is bring in the money. |
grtbrt | 07 Apr 2016 7:03 a.m. PST |
I will limit myself to just a few points from VAgamers post (and the comments following) first of all the Game .This illustrates the problem trying to get any constructive conversation going . VA was addressing a specific point about GM's and the vocal group that want to give them special treatment,while also addressing the BOD stated "we need better looking games " issue . Millercop instantly took it as personal insult to that group(and I guess himself) and came back with the "they do a lot and they are really nice " argument -Which in no way addresses the issue at hand .Unless you take the argument view that because Millercop did not directly refute the statement, He must agree with it (though that might be reading too much into the semantics of hobby postings ) While we do not need to become the next "whatevercon" HMGS can learn a lot by looking and studying those cons . What they do well, what they fail at ,strengths ,weaknesses, etc.. My frustration comes from the fact that HMGS BOD doesn't seem to acknowledge that anything is wrong or do anything about it . Also when groups do want to "carry the water" at whatevercon, HMGS couldn't care less (ok they likely could ,but it is near the bottom of the rung- unless it is a member of their inner circle then …..) and no support. Actually our group has done a very good job recruiting new members at cons (Gencon in particular ) and when/if they ask about HMGS ,we tell them our experiences . The upshot being of approx. 30 Full members and 25 aux. members of our club I am the only HMGS member (and I only re-joined so I could use a flea market table ) But I would love HMGS to become what it can be – A great Miniatures convention. I just do not expect it |
Millercop16 | 07 Apr 2016 11:18 a.m. PST |
Kevin I was not personally hurt but if you read what was stated it was harsh. Everyone has a skill level with modeling some better than others. Listen I post all kinds of things on here to get a rise out of people and laugh with my buds but geeze. 60 members in a club can make noise! I agree historicon needs to become a better event. If all the clubs banned together you would be surprised what could happen. |
Miniatureships | 07 Apr 2016 3:01 p.m. PST |
When you look at other cons, you are not looking to duplicate the games, you are looking to duplicate what brings in the gamer. This is especially true if you are thinking about the economics and growth of the convention, which is standard business economics. Also, for those that complain about limited stock at the shows, you need to consider that manufacturing cost have gone up, meaning like everyone else, the manufacturer has to cut back on what they can do. If the shows are slowing down in sales for the manufacturer, then producing large inventories for something that is decreasing in sales, doesn't make sense. Even notice how many of the big box stores have cut back on the number of various brands they sell of the same item? Once they may have had 5 to 7 choices of one product from various companies and now they only have two. the answer is simple, economics due to consumer purchasing. The thing that I find interesting is that people who deal with vendors who run short, are the same people that use the computer. And, if you are really interested in seeing something, why not contact that dealer prior to the show and ask them to one set aside so that you can look at it. Now, You may run across a dealer that has something you didn't know about, but then again, the issue may simply be economics limiting how much stock of each item he can take, and you fell victim to first come first served. |
TSD101 | 07 Apr 2016 10:42 p.m. PST |
If I were a member of this club I would be embarrassed to have these three games posted on a widely viewed hobby web site, as an illustration of the types of games our club was capable of doing at a Major Convention of any kind! I'm just saying! Care to post some pictures of games you've run at HMGS conventions vagamer? |
snurl1 | 08 Apr 2016 2:13 a.m. PST |
The Dealer hall could use some new blood. This last Cold Wars convention was the first time that I brought most of my money back home from a convention. I see that several dealers have decided to stay home and sell on line. I don't like to shop on line unless I have to. I like to SEE what I'm buying in person, not on a screen. I like meeting the people who run these companies too. |
DCallan | 08 Apr 2016 8:11 a.m. PST |
Here is an example why a vendor should consider attending miniatures convention even though it may not produce an immediate profit. Last year, I attended a con looking for 2 specific vendors on the vendor list: Warlord Games and Sarissa Precision. I had to limit myself to 2 because of budget. I had specific items in mind from both vendors, but wanted to view in person before making the purchases. Oddly, Sarissa Precision did not show up. I was told by the information desk they had paid for their spot, but a no show. Warlord Games sold out of the items I wanted. Oh well, so as long as I was there, I went strolling and discovered a vendor/manufacturer I was not aware of, Foot Sore Miniatures. I spent most of my money on the new vendor and told myself to increase my budget for next year to include the new vendor. A year later, I go back to this same con and made purchases as planned at known vendors. Besides the direct sale, vendors were able to promote future products already in the works, which I will take into consideration when budgeting. Once again, I discovered new vendors while walking around and made purchases there as well. The lessons. Conventions not only allow vendors to reconnect with their current customers, but exposes them to possible new customers. Reading multiple threads regarding the decline of various conventions in attendees and vendors, I have come to the conclusion that I will reduce my on-line shopping to a minimum and save that money for convention shopping to support vendors who make the tough decision of attending conventions even though it may mean an unprofitable investment for them. If they support my convention, I will do my part to thank them for their support. |