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"Brexit Threat to UK gaming companies" Topic


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Steve Blease01 Apr 2016 2:18 a.m. PST

Somewhat gobsmacked by this news and the major impact it will have on the UK war-games hobby…

link

YankeePedlar0101 Apr 2016 2:22 a.m. PST

Well, it is April Fools Day…

Oh Bugger01 Apr 2016 2:28 a.m. PST

A pretty good one though.

alexjones01 Apr 2016 2:38 a.m. PST

April Fool's day??

Although some of the threats, bullying and outrageous claims made by those Deleted by Moderator are even more ridiculous.

McWong7301 Apr 2016 2:38 a.m. PST

Nice one!

Personal logo Patrick R Supporting Member of TMP01 Apr 2016 2:54 a.m. PST

The Brexit may mean a return to tariffs and pricey customs surcharges for EU buyers, meaning that miniatures might become much more expensive to buy, diminishing sales …

But of course Deleted by Moderator

MajorB01 Apr 2016 3:00 a.m. PST

The Brexit may mean a return to tariffs and pricey customs surcharges for EU buyers, meaning that miniatures might become much more expensive to buy, diminishing sales …

Rubbish.

alexjones01 Apr 2016 3:06 a.m. PST

Highly unlikely since the UK buys far more from the EU than it sells to them. Imposing additional tariffs would not be in the interests of the EU.

Deleted by Moderator

The Man With Two Bryans01 Apr 2016 3:22 a.m. PST

Not rubbish. If the UK is not part of the harmonized VAT system as a result of Brexit, then even without additional duty or tariffs to think about, the collection fee for VAT on cross-border sales will push up the cost of buying figures, except on very small orders.

TMP sees frequent whinges from UK wargamers about the 8 quid charged by Royal Mail to collect VAT on import parcels from outside the EU. Now imagine that applied universally between EU and Brexited UK just for collecting VAT. Norwegian wargamers already know how much that system costs, and they're in the European free trade area.

advocate01 Apr 2016 3:26 a.m. PST

Please, no politics.

More importantly Steve, will I be able to use my figures if I claim they are 'Imagination' troops? Will I have to ensure they are painted in a non-historical uniform?

GurKhan01 Apr 2016 3:27 a.m. PST

I thought we had a "no politics" rule on the forums?

Unless some of these contributions are intended to be comedy, of course.

alexjones01 Apr 2016 3:28 a.m. PST

No you're right, the price of toy soldiers should be the deciding factor

alexjones01 Apr 2016 3:31 a.m. PST

Sorry to disappoint you , I am British

Oh Bugger01 Apr 2016 3:34 a.m. PST

Ah well that's a bit of light humour spoiled.

Personal logo Rrobbyrobot Supporting Member of TMP01 Apr 2016 3:35 a.m. PST

Seems a horse walked by and left a little something…

Umpapa01 Apr 2016 4:00 a.m. PST

We in continental Europe wish You Brits stay with us. :)

Amongst other things, for our common hobby Brexit will surely lower figure & rules sale to EU.

Deleted by Moderator

Please stay with us and it's not an Aprils Fool. :)

MajorB01 Apr 2016 4:05 a.m. PST

Not rubbish. If the UK is not part of the harmonized VAT system as a result of Brexit, then even without additional duty or tariffs to think about, the collection fee for VAT on cross-border sales will push up the cost of buying figures, except on very small orders.

No, because many UK manufacturers are below the VAT threshold.

The Man With Two Bryans01 Apr 2016 4:23 a.m. PST

No, because many UK manufacturers are below the VAT threshold.

That won't matter because if the UK is outside the harmonized EU VAT sytem, ALL parcels going into the EU from Brexited UK would have VAT charged on them, and collection fees over certain values. (BTW, not politics, just tax mechanics!) A parcel that goes from a non-VAT registered manufacturer in the UK, post-Brexit conditions, would become subject to VAT on entry to the EU if the VAT system does not remain harmonized. The VAT system will exist in the EU regardless of extra duties or tariffs that may or may not arise if Brexit occurs.

Lt Col Pedant01 Apr 2016 4:31 a.m. PST

Good use of evidence Bryan x 2.

alexjones01 Apr 2016 4:41 a.m. PST

Umpapa, have you heard the joke. What do you call a pretty girl in the UK?

Polish!

MajorB01 Apr 2016 4:57 a.m. PST

A parcel that goes from a non-VAT registered manufacturer in the UK, post-Brexit conditions, would become subject to VAT on entry to the EU if the VAT system does not remain harmonized.

But who would be liable to pay the VAT and how would it be collected and by who? The UK manufacturer can't if they are not registered for VAT.

Do we in the EU have to pay VAT on products purchased from non-EU countries such as the US?

Ben Lacy Sponsoring Member of TMP01 Apr 2016 5:09 a.m. PST

Prohibition attempted to stop us Yanks from drinking. You see how well that worked. You will just take it underground and have the Speak-easy of miniature gaming. :)

steamingdave4701 Apr 2016 5:27 a.m. PST

@Major B
We certainly have to pay some sort of tax if we import goods from the US with a value of £15.00 GBP or more (and sometimes " value" is interpreted as including postage!). Royal Mail then charge you £8.00 GBP on top of the "tax" (I am not clear as to whether this is VAT or import duty, but it all ends up in the same pot)

Wombling Free01 Apr 2016 5:33 a.m. PST

But who would be liable to pay the VAT and how would it be collected and by who?

You have to pay VAT and Import Duty when you import items to the UK. This money is collected by Royal Mail which also charges you £8.00 GBP for the privilege. Thresholds apply, so low value items will not be charged, and you don't pay VAT on items you buy within the EU, because it is already charged at source, IIRC.

If the UK leaves the EU then it is a certainty that HMRC will seek to carve a further pound of flesh from us by ensuring that items from the EU will be charged for.

edit: ninjaed by steamingdave (also, the £8.00 GBP goes to Royal Mail as payment for ensuring that you pay duty/VAT)

Personal logo Chris Rance Supporting Member of TMP01 Apr 2016 5:58 a.m. PST

Do we in the EU have to pay VAT on products purchased from non-EU countries such as the US?

Yes, Major B we do, if over the threshold. In my case (in the Czech Rep) it is DPH not VAT and the threshold is 22 Euros – but every country in the EU has a value of between 10 and 22 Euros above which goods are liable to be taxed by the local equivalent of VAT.

Oh Bugger01 Apr 2016 6:23 a.m. PST

Indeed just did it and the £8.00 GBP.

McWong7301 Apr 2016 6:38 a.m. PST

Firstbrigade for the win!

MajorB01 Apr 2016 7:47 a.m. PST

Yes, Major B we do, if over the threshold. In my case (in the Czech Rep) it is DPH not VAT and the threshold is 22 Euros but every country in the EU has a value of between 10 and 22 Euros above which goods are liable to be taxed by the local equivalent of VAT.

So whether the UK is in the EU or not, a purchaser would still have to pay VAT at the rate of the country to which it is delivered.
link

In other words, it makes no difference

Unless of course a UK government post EU exit chose to REDUCE the rate of VAT … (or even scrap it).

SoW Reddog01 Apr 2016 7:57 a.m. PST

I'd happily pay the £8.00 GBP charge AND tax for everything I buy from Europe if it meant Brexit.

This would have cost me, oh about zero pounds and pence this year, and the last year, and the year before and…you get the picture.

alexjones01 Apr 2016 8:21 a.m. PST

Thanks MajorB for taking the time to clarify that.

Of course after Brexit the British government would have that option

Mike Bravo Miniatures01 Apr 2016 8:59 a.m. PST

"So whether the UK is in the EU or not, a purchaser would still have to pay VAT at the rate of the country to which it is delivered.

In other words, it makes no difference"

I think you've been misled by your link (rules on how business account for VAT). It will make a difference at the consumer level.

As a consumer if I import goods from the US, I pay UK VAT + customs duty + RM handling fee. If I import goods from the EU, I don't: if I'm paying VAT at all, it's been accounted for by the seller and is part of the sticker price.

Post Brexit, unless a customs union is maintained, I'm now paying UK VAT + customs duty + handling fee on imports from the EU. If I'm lucky the seller is VAT registered so won't charge me VAT at his end, but I'm still paying UK VAT + customs + handling fee.

Now if my EU customers are going to be in the same boat in terms of imports from the UK, it's going to have an adverse impact on sales to the EU.

Unless Brexit is coupled with a devaluation of sterling, I don't see any upside from an international trade point of view.

And that's before you get into how highly you value not having to fill in a customs form every time you send something to Europe, having a degree of harmonised consumer laws, etc.

Personal logo Chris Rance Supporting Member of TMP01 Apr 2016 9:20 a.m. PST

So whether the UK is in the EU or not, a purchaser would still have to pay VAT at the rate of the country to which it is delivered.

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. That tax is only liable if the goods originate outside the EU; goods from within the EU are not liable. So if Brexit happens, UK consumers will be paying this tax on all purchases from the rest of Europe.

MajorB01 Apr 2016 9:34 a.m. PST

I think you've been misled by your link (rules on how business account for VAT). It will make a difference at the consumer level.

So are you saying that a UK government web site is wrong?

If I import goods from the EU, I don't: if I'm paying VAT at all, it's been accounted for by the seller and is part of the sticker price.

I don't think that's true. Yes the "sticker price" will include VAT at the rate of the seller's country, but if the VAT rate in the buyer's country is different to that then there would have to be an accounting somehow. What you say only works when the VAT rate is the same across the whole of the EU.

Post Brexit, unless a customs union is maintained, I'm now paying UK VAT + customs duty + handling fee on imports from the EU. If I'm lucky the seller is VAT registered so won't charge me VAT at his end, but I'm still paying UK VAT + customs + handling fee.

So the only difference is the customs charge?

So if Brexit happens, UK consumers will be paying this tax on all purchases from the rest of Europe.

That's all right then. Most of the hobby manufacturers are in the UK.

Zargon01 Apr 2016 9:44 a.m. PST

Let let's Biggles kiss the French girl and chocks away to sort it :) Deleted by Moderator ;) bring on 3D printed armies let's see them put extra taxes on that.

Volleyfire01 Apr 2016 11:06 a.m. PST

I've imported figures from the US, Aus, HK, and Italy,some of them very expensive, and I've never paid this £8.00 GBP RM charge, not unless it is somehow slipped on at the posters end rather than this end. I can only presume that if the sender puts something like secondhand toys on the label and a nominal value (as some have done with my purchases) then you are below the tax threshold and don't pay accordingly? If that is the case then everyone just puts a low value on the package and avoids this £8.00 GBP RM charge surely? Or am I missing something here?

BelgianRay01 Apr 2016 11:23 a.m. PST

Guess a Brexit will be a good deal for European manufacturers. I do not buy from the US specifically for the import cost, wich is prohibitive.

Wombling Free01 Apr 2016 11:28 a.m. PST

Yes the "sticker price" will include VAT at the rate of the seller's country, but if the VAT rate in the buyer's country is different to that then there would have to be an accounting somehow.

No. It is counted as having been paid. That's how the agreement works within the EU.

I've imported figures from the US, Aus, HK, and Italy,some of them very expensive, and I've never paid this £8.00 GBP GBP RM charge

Have you ever had to go to the Post Office and pay the duty on any of those parcels? If so, then you should have paid the £8.00 GBP charge whether you realised it or not. Our local sorting office has big notices up about it for when you collect parcels from them.

If that is the case then everyone just puts a low value on the package and avoids this £8.00 GBP GBP RM charge surely? Or am I missing something here?

Yes, you're missing the fact that what you suggest is illegal and could land the company that does this in very hot water.

I do not buy from the US specifically for the import cost, which is prohibitive.

Me neither. I've been hit by the £8.00 GBP charge a couple of times and it really hurts on the small orders that I can usually afford.

Mike Bravo Miniatures01 Apr 2016 2:33 p.m. PST

"So are you saying that a UK government web site is wrong?"

No, it's perfectly adequate for VAT registered businesses wanting to know about VAT treatment of business purchases from EU suppliers. But it does not reflect the position for consumers. They are two separate things.

As a consumer I don't have to worry about whether Italian VAT is higher or lower than UK VAT. I just pay whatever the sticker price is.

"That's all right then. Most of the hobby manufacturers are in the UK."

…many of whom will have EU customers, who are going to face having to pay more for UK toys if Brexit happens.

It might not bother you directly if you don't buy from EU manufacturers, but it'll bother UK manufacturers trying to sell into Europe as it'll lose them sales (which may indirectly affect you if your favourite manufacturer has less money to reinvest into new figures).

Rapier Miniatures02 Apr 2016 1:46 a.m. PST

Hey folks, ignore the VAT question, if a Brexit happens, the Gov can abolish VAT if it wants.

Bigger issue is the hitting parity with the Euro or even the Dollar as it freefalls into oblivion. Exporting product would be fine, importing the raw materials is gonna raise the price way beyond viable though.

Martin Rapier02 Apr 2016 2:00 a.m. PST

Well, at least when Sterling collapses, interest rates will rise again. Yay for the hard pressed savers! Shame about all those people with mortgages.

Mako1102 Apr 2016 3:14 a.m. PST

"…bring on 3D printed armies let's see them put extra taxes on that".

Best not to taunt them on stuff like that, me thinks, since they'll find a way. Most likely will heavily tax that material that comes out of the printer to produce your minis/models, like they do gasoline.

mashrewba03 Apr 2016 3:26 a.m. PST

"…the Gov can abolish VAT if it wants" lol -don't hold your breath!!!

Volleyfire03 Apr 2016 11:06 a.m. PST

Have you ever had to go to the Post Office and pay the duty on any of those parcels? If so, then you should have paid the £8.00 GBP GBP charge whether you realised it or not. Our local sorting office has big notices up about it for when you collect parcels from them.

No I can honestly I've never ever had to do this.

Yes, you're missing the fact that what you suggest is illegal and could land the company that does this in very hot water.

Well all I know is they do, it's widespread from my experience, no one appears to investigate it so it carries on. It would take the RM a long time and a lot of investigators to prove some cases I suspect.

Wombling Free03 Apr 2016 11:39 a.m. PST

You're lucky that you have never been tagged to pay extra duty then, vollefire; one of the few that I know that has never been caught by it.

Well all I know is they do, it's widespread from my experience, no one appears to investigate it so it carries on. It would take the RM a long time and a lot of investigators to prove some cases I suspect.

HMRC would investigate it, not RM, and they can be pretty vindictive about even small amounts. In fact, they seem to be more vindictive about small amounts than the largest amounts.

Oh Bugger03 Apr 2016 12:22 p.m. PST

What Dr B said. The process begins at UK Customs.

My last US transaction I had to pay the additional amounts on line before they would attempt delivery. No if's, no but's, no mask.

Gennorm05 Apr 2016 1:05 p.m. PST

well, at least when Sterling collapses

Ain't gonna happen!

christot12 Apr 2016 6:42 a.m. PST

"Ain't gonna happen!"

Actually, it might…Reason being no-one, on either side of the argument, has a clue what actually will happen should the UK leave.
That is the only "known Unknown"

Gennorm14 Apr 2016 9:29 a.m. PST

If Brexit happens the Euro is highly likely to plummet after a massive vote of no confidence in the whole European project.

mysteron Supporting Member of TMP07 Feb 2019 4:55 a.m. PST

I thought I would revive this thread as there is only 50 days to go which may end up with the UK. unless anything radicle happens leaving on a "No Deal " basis .

Without entering into a political melee and for what its worth I am a remainer, the will of the UK population has decided to leave and this should be respected.

However all this aside I am just wondering how this will affect the hobby of ours and would welcome views from some of the manufacturers on here that post like Warlord,PSC ,QRF etc. as well as you guys.

Long Valley Gamer Supporting Member of TMP07 Feb 2019 7:40 a.m. PST

If the pound becomes more in line with the dollar I would think(not being an economist) it would stimulate sales to the United States…

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