"US trench gun issue. How?" Topic

Okay, so ww1 "trench guns" (shotguns).

We know they were available and that the Germans didn't like them one bit but how were they issued?

Did the battalion or regiment have a pool available and parcelled them out as they saw fit?

Issued to certain units? Assault teams and raiding parties?

How many were available?

good question. I had the same question about the Thomson sub machine guns. Some years ago. no one seamed to know.

seems there were enough of them to make a big impact on the german forces facing the US troops.

The New York Times
September 30, 1918

REPRISAL THREAT OVER SHOTGUNS
German Ultimatum Demands That America Cease Arming Troops with Such Weapons.
WILL EXECUTE PRISONERS
State Department Defends Use and Will Warn Germany of Counter-Reprisals Here. Will Threaten Counter-Reprisals. American Position Plain. Shotguns Used in Police Work.

AMSTERDAM, Sept. 29.--Germany, through the Swiss Legation, has sent an ultimatum to the Government of the United States that if no satisfactory answer is forthcoming by Oct. 1 to the German protest about the use of shotguns by American soldiers "reprisals will be taken."

the guy who posted this stated he has also been looking for the answer to your question for over 4 years. :)

Quite by happenstance, I just this morning read a thread on this very topic on the Axis History Forum (WW1 section). According to "informed sources", 6-shot pump action Remington 97 shotguns were issued to non-coms for trench-fighting purposes.

Interesting tidbit – if the trigger were kept depressed by the operator, the gun would automatically fire with each cycle of the pump action.

The Germans did not like them one bit.

B

I have read accounts from the Vietnam War where Marines would hold the trigger back so it would fire each time they pumped a round into the chamber. Not quite but almost like a semi-auto shotgun. I am sure WWII Marines did the same, institutional memory being what it is. Does anyone know if the Army used shotguns in WWII or Vietnam?

Vietnam: link

I know for a fact the USMC used both the M870 and Winchester 1200 in Vietnam.

Shotguns were issued in very limited numbers in ww2, but in Europe, they were mainly used by MPs and the like.

The ability to hold back the trigger and have the gun fire after working the pump action is a trait of model 97 & 12 Winchester shotguns. I've demonstrated it with my model 12 on several occasions. That trait is one of the reasons that model 97s are so popular with cowboy competition shooters.

According to Gordon Rottman the Marines only issued shotguns to MPs & POW guards.

REPRISAL THREAT OVER SHOTGUNS
German Ultimatum Demands That America Cease Arming Troops with Such Weapons.

From the people who gave us flamethrowers and poison gas……

Nope, poison gas was the French.

Alright, so WW1 trench gun issue?

There's gotta be a figure out there for guns per battalion or some such, but the firearms books I have, that list these guns only talk about technical specs.

I have read that they were division assets, I have read that they went to recon platoons, I have read that NCOs could draw them … Perhaps there is some truth to all three and more.

All make potential sense :)

Thomson sub machine guns and BAR were just entering service when war ended.

The French technically did not use poison gas first as there gas grenades were filled with tear gas. So, the Germans were the first to use a poison gas.

As far as the Marine Corps is concerned you should look more at ships companies and then Battalions. Before WW1 and during, lots of Battalion were made up from ships companies and weapons were issued as needed.

Back in the late 70's and early 80's I was a young US Special Forces trooper. In the jungles I tramped through, at least one of us carried an "Atchinson Automatic shot gun.
These were of British production and a great asset for clearing jungle trails. I can tell you the "Baddies" did not like them one bit.

The French technically did not use poison gas first as there gas grenades were filled with tear gas. So, the Germans were the first to use a poison gas.

I'll let him answer for himself, but I thought that "rmaker" was referring to the use of gas to kill shiploads of rebelling slaves on Haiti during the French Rev/Napoleonic period – in which case, he's right. From memory, they locked them up in the holds and fed in gas.

I thought the topic was US Trench gun (shotguns) in WW1 and the Germans doing reprisals for the US using them. In WW1 the Germans were the first to use Poison Gas while the French were the first to use a non deadly gas. The Germans were the first to use flame throwers. I have never heard of reprisals against the Germans who released gas or used a flame thrower.

The basic argument that the French used poison gas in Haiti is in dispute. The basic problem with the use of gas to kill shiploads of rebelling slaves on Haiti is "Why". Having killed 100,000 thousand slaves with poison gas you now have to dispose of the bodies and it would not be a few officers who would have written about it.

So 19 posts later and we're as far as we started :-)

I even dug through a WW1 infantry manual a while back but it had nothing either, though it was for a platoon commander.

WWII orbat 1 per company for hunting