"1459 "The White Swans 1459" using ACOP/ACOS" Topic

A Crown of Paper/A Coat of Steel are the rule sets being discussed here. A Crown of Paper is the Campaign system and A Coat of Steel being the actual on table rules.

This isn't a battle report just yet as we havent't managed to get this onto the table due to the number of figures that the A Crown of Paper has generated so this is just a report on the Campaign piece.

The Lancastrians won the first activation and moved the Host commanded by Baron Audley and the Duke of Exeter, together with Margaret of Anjou and Prince Edward, from Coventry to Leicester joining the main Lancastrian army under the Duke of Buckingham.

In the Southwest we had Somerset and Devon recruiting and making their way towards the midlands.

The Earl of Pembroke was effectively pinned in by Lord Herbert and the Percies were too far North to contribute. Stanley was reported as moving Southwards but no one was quite sure on whose side.

The Yorkist forces moved out of the fortified camp and looked at recruiting supporters before having to face the Lancastrians. Warwick and the Calais contingent under Trollope arrived on Turn 1.

Second turn saw more manouvering with Warwick moving Northwards to join the Yorkist forces.

Lord Herbert made a march to join the Duke of York while Devon and Somerset also force marched to try and reach the King.

End result we have two large hosts facing off against each other at Nottingham with the Yorkist forces attacking.

Yorkist (58 Contingents/181 Bases – 8 Nobles, 12 Captains, 7 Men-at-Arms, 84 Retinue Archers, 1 Gonne, 5 Welsh Spear, 57 Levy Archers, 7 Levy Billmen )
Lord Herbert
(Himself, 2 Captains, 10 Retinue Archers, 5 Spear, 2 Levy Archers)
Duke of York
(Himself, 3 Captains, 2 Men-at-Arms, 17 Retinue Archers, 14 Levy Archers, 3 Bill)
Earl of March
(Himself, 3 Captains, 1 Men-at-Arms, 17 Retinue Archers, 19 Levy Archers, 1 Bill)
Warwic
(Himself, 4 Captains, 3 Men-at-Arms, 19 Retinue Archers, 11 Levy Archers, 1 Bill)
Barron Ferrers
(Himself, 1 Men-at-Arms, 2 Retinue Archers, 1 Gonne, 8 Levy Archers, 2 Bill)
Grey of Powis
(Himself, 5 Retinue Archers, 3 Levy Archers)
Master Porter of Calais
(Himself, 12 Retinue Archers)
Baron Montagu
(Himself, 2 Retinue Archers)

Lancastrian (52 Contingents/157 Bases – 8 Nobles, 9 Captains, 8 Men-at-Arms, 1 Named Captain, 77 Retinue Archers, 2 Gonnes, 45 Levy Archers, 8 Levy Billmen)
Exeter
(Himself, 2 Retinue Archers)
Audley
(Himself, 2 Captains, 3 Men-at-Arms, Named Captain, 10 Retinue Archers, 10 Levy Archers, 2 Bill)
Shrewsbury
(Himself, 1 Captain, 2 Men-at-Arms, 12 Retinue Archers, 6 Levy Archers, 3 Bill)
Beaumont
(Himself, 3 Retinue Archers)
Wiltshire
(Himself, 1 Captain, 4 Retinue Archers)
Buckingham
(Himself, 2 Captains, 1 Men-at-Arms, 15 Retinue Archers, 1 Gonne, 12 Levy Archers, 1 Bill)
Somerset
(Himself, 2 Captains, 2 Men-at-Arms, 20 Retinue Archers, 1 Gonne, 8 Levy Archers, 2 Bill)
Devon
(Himself, 1 Captain, 11 Retinue Archers, 9 Levy Archers)

Embattlement is the process of splitting the assembled host into a fighting formation. Companies can be anywhere between 6 and 16 bases of figures. There are also rules covering who can command which magnate. This is the Yorkist host assembled under the Duke of York as an Heir. The "Captains" are minor nobles that I will name later on.

Mainward – Duke of York
Himself, Captain, 2 Men-at-Arms, 8 Retinue Archers (4)
Montagu, 5 Retinue Archers, 6 Levy Archers (3)
Herbert, Captain, 8 Retinue Archers, 3 Levy Archers, 1 Billmen (4)
Captain, 6 Retinue Archers, 5 Levy Archers, 2 Billmen (2)
Captain, 5 Retinue Archers, 5 Welsh Spearmen, 2 Levy Archers (2)

Vanward – Earl of March
Himself, Captain, 7 Retinue Archers, 4 Levy Archers (4)
Ferrers, 5 Retinue Archers, 10 Levy Archers (3)
Powis, Gonne, 4 Retinue Archers, 1 Men-at-Arms, 4 Levy Archers, 3 Billmen (3)
Captain, 5 Retinue Archers, 6 Levy Archers (2)
Captain, 5 Retinue Archers, 1 Men-at-Arms, 6 Levy Archers (2)

Rearward – Earl of Warwick
Himself, 2 Captains, 6 Retinue Archers, 3 Levy Archers (4)
Trollope, 9 Retinue Archers, 3 Levy Archers (1)
Captain, 7 Retinue Archers, 2 Men-at-Arms, 4 Levy Archers (2)
Captain, 8 Retinue Archers, 1 Men-at-Arms, 1 Levy Archer, 2 Billmen (2)

Moving on we now look at the Lancastrian forces who will be commanded by Humphrey Stafford, the Duke of Buckingham.

Late Arriving – Duke of Somerset
Himself, Captain, 2 Men-at-Arms, 7 Retinue Archers, 3 Levy Archers (3)
Devon, 11 Retinue Archers, 2 Billmen, 2 Levy Archers (3)
Captain, 6 Retinue Archers, 6 Levy Archers, 1 Gonne (2)

Mainward – Duke of Buckingham
Himself, Captain, 8 Retinue Archers, 4 Levy Archers, 2 Billmen (3)
Wiltshire, Captain, 7 Retinue Archers, 4 Levy Archers, 2 Billmen (3)
Beaumont, Captain, 5 Retinue Archers, 6 Levy Archers (3)
Captain, 8 Retinue Archers, 1 Men-at-Arms, 3 Levy Archers, 1 Gonne (3)

Vanward – Duke of Exeter
Himself, 3 Men-at-Arms, 5 Retinue Archers, 2 Billmen, 4 Levy Archers (3)
Audley, 2 Captains, 1 Men-at-Arms, 9 Retinue Archers, 3 Levy Archers (3)
Shrewsbury, 1 Men-at-Arms, 8 Retinue Archers, 1 Billmen, 3 Levy Archers (3)
Captain, Captain, 2 Retinue Archers, 7 Levy Archers (2)

Another game where yet again I find myself short of troops for a pick up game. As I am providng all the troops for this, it means that Peter Pig will be getting an order for collection at Salute……

16 Nobles
21 Captains
15 Men at Arms
161 Retinue Archers
102 Levy Archers
15 Levy Billmen
5 Welsh Spear
3 Gonnes

Means I am still short of…..
57 Bases of Retinue Archers – 171 Figures
82 Bases of Levy Archers – 164 Figures
5 Bases of Welsh Spear – 15 Figures

Man, that is a lot of troops.

I'm currently reading about the military campaigns of the WOTR. Interesting stuff, with lots of men swapping sides, double-dealing, etc..

How does the campaign system work?

Are you able to select your campaign strategy and destination(s) on your own, or does the game system intervene/modify that in that some way(s)?

How does the campaign system control the actions of your opponents and allies, and permit or keep you from raising armies, deal with treachery, etc.?

I realize that's a lot of questions, so I'd be interested in reading a review of "A Crown of Paper" if there is one, as well as on the rules you are using for battle too.

Here's the link to the rules:
link

-Will

dbflock grrrrr.

I was going to post up the same link as it has a Campaign run through.

I have had some cracking games of this so far and it does give the impression of the period that I was after. The Campaign game is designed to be played out in a single session of a couple of hours or so. It depends on how you wish to transfer the campaign combats onto your table.

To Answer Mako11's questions.

The aim of the historical Campaigns is set by the particular campaign being played out: 1455, 1459, 1460, 1460-1461 and later. They have done all the hard work for you but there is no reason you couldn't set your own scenario up.

As to where you actually move to is free play to a large degree. Start locations are specified as is a time limit.

The Treachery element is handled by both the campaign and by the actual on table rules "Trimmers" being the colloquial phrase and it is possible to have forces swap sides in the campaign game and then a treacherous event happen on table (but that would be very very rare)

The whole raising and losing forces again is covered by the campaign system. You start with your Riding Retinue, gather well wishers from the Counties and regions you have influence in as you visit the location and you can cause the Levy to be raised. The levy has a finite pool as theoretically both sides can call upon their service.

CAG19- I'm one of the guys that make up "the Perfect Captain". First of all. apologies:
1. Sorry we haven't completed the revision to the game yet… it's been a long process, and still has a way to go… we'll return to it later in the year. It's nearly there.
2. Sorry the game takes so many troops! We have a frightful amount of 28mm WotR figures ourselves, yet we still run out of figures sometimes too! This seems to be a common complaint about ACOP/ACOS, so much so that we thought about lessening the numbers in many of the systems… however it would take remaking many of the play aids and graphics, and at the rate that we revise things, we'd probably only finish in time for the 600th anniversary of Bosworth. And as we've all spent enough printer ink on ACOP/ACOS, we'll spare everyone the pain. Besides, more figures=more fun!

That said, I'll share an excerpt from one of the appendices in the new rulebook (from Appendix A: One-off Battles), below. Note that as it's for one-off battles, it may not be that helpful in a campaign setting, as any calculation will have to be done again to return the troops to the campaign. It's not a stunning revelation, but it's here just to show that we are cognizant of the need for many figures in the system.
Cheers,
-TPC

"6. I don't have enough figures!: In the years since we issued the first edition of these rules, we have had feedback that the amount of bands (stands) necessary to fight a tabletop battle is rather high, particularly when you fight a battle generated through an ACOP campaign game. If players are unable to muster the figures to fill out their contingents, they can decide to scale back their bands to achievable levels, in a couple of ways:

A. Scale back the numbers of bands for both sides by a percentage. So for example, if a battle generated through ACOP requires 60 bands for the Lancastrians and 40 for the Yorkists, they could decide to reduce the numbers by 25%, giving the Lancastrians 45 bands and the Yorkist 30. This should be done before the bands and contingents are embattled into companies and wards, according to the rules for unit size. It is not advisable to scale the numbers too far, as the numbers of units will diminish, giving players a less interesting (though quicker) game.

B. Replace bands with figures: For instance, say Warwick himself brings a force of 30 bands to the table; usually, each band would comprise a stand of 2-3 figures, meaning that a player would need to paint between 60 and 90 figures for his command alone. Instead, he could field a force of 30 figures, but still use them as arranged on his stands. This might take a little extra calculation and rounding during set up, but as long as the same rates of exchange are used by all involved, this might not strain the resources of most players. Please note that it might skew the qualities of the units a bit, as Riding Retinue might need to round up a bit more, but at least a modest army of figures will still be useable.

Note: players who need to do this can take comfort in the fact that most of the numbers reported for battles in period chronicles were often inflated to ten times (or more) than the numbers possible for the era! If they could get away with it, so can you…

•Nobles and Captains: Some players have also expressed concern about the high number of nobles and captains needed for commanders of wards and companies. Few players may have such expansive numbers of command stands available in their miniature armies. True, we do like to see these men and their banners on the field- it makes for a rather dazzling display on the tabletop when you have, say a couple of dozen banners and standards lined up! However, players who lack these stands may merely make a note of which noble is in command of any given unit on a piece of paper, or place the corresponding noble counter from ACOP behind the unit, or even place his noble card there instead (as we have seen some do in photos of their games online.) As long as they are checked for casualties, there would be no substantial change in the system.
Of course, with the large variety of gorgeous figures available now in plastic and in white metal, it seems a shame not to take advantage of the pageantry of the era, and paint up a bunch of these guys and their wonderfully garish flags.

Hi,
first up thanks. Thanks for a cracking set of rules that have rekindled my love for the period.

It has been about a year since I have done any serious painting or gaming. Those who know me, know for whatever reason, I have ended up providing both sides for my favourite periods. And WOTR is no different.

Really my opponent should be fielding half the forces in which case this probably isn't too big an issue. As it is "just" me this means I am nearly approaching 1400 figures and even that probably isn't enought. To be honest if I had found TPC first I wouldn't have made so many foot units up (billmen) and concentrated on Archers :)

Nobles has been a fun diversion from "uniforms" and while I have 48 bases made up so far (started the bases on four bases this afternoon) that is by choice and definitely adds to the look of the table top. Mine have a label on them which I cheat and have used sticky labels for so I can just swap the names over if needed and leave all the heraldry and livery in place. The photos below are from the 1455 campaign game (which doesnt use the CoA)

15mm is my poison and while 28mm plastic is now readily available I was too far down this route to change course and start again.

The 1459 game is a large game. The Yorkist Army is over 12000 strong comprising some 6500 Levy in 14 Companies. The Lancastrians about 11000 with around 5000 levy in 11 Companies. So it might be a while until we actually play this one out

Wow, yes, I can see that will be a very large game, even if you were to go with a ratio of 1:50, or 1:100 real troops.

Thank you for the overview of the campaign rules, and the link to them. I really appreciate it.

Which range(s) of 15mm minis are you using for your WOTR armies?

They look really great!

It's worse than that a stand is 60-100

So a noble base is 1:20 with 3 figs on it
Retinue maybe 1:25 or 1:30
Levy infantry 1:33
Levy archers 1:50 as they are 2 figure bases

Mine are nearly all Peter Pig Bloody Barons figures Range 23
peterpig.co.uk/page23.html

Thank you for the info on the figures, and the troop ratios.

Yea, I figured you were probably going for more miniatures per real combatant. That is an awful lot of figures to paint, and move on the tabletop, but I'll bet your battles look epic.

I have done my figures on DBA bases, so i have four figures on a 40mm wide base, x3 for Levy archers. I have also just put an order in for another 20 packs of archers. Still need another 40 packs.

Think Peter Pig needs to thank the "Perfect captain" for its rise in figure sales ;-)

Ummmmm. Following Mako's suggestion I put the Duke of Yorks battle onto the table. 33 base frontage or just over 3' (990mm) using the convention of a company being two stands deep at my chose base size of 30mm. Too big a game to play out methinks

Thanks Andy P… and if the Peter Pig guys are reading this, TPC could use a few packs of RCW Red partisans ;-)

Nah, megalomania knows no bounds……….

It can be done.

Of course, we'll want a very detailed, blow by blow, battle account, with pics. ;-)

I have a mix of Essex miniatures, which were bought many moons ago, and Peter Pig. I had enough to do Bosworth Field based on orbits from The Longbow Society. Since then I was taken ill with Perryinitus, and promptly bought far too any of the WotR 28mm. I pulled out the 15mm stands the other day, which are based for A Coat of Steel.

I really like the rules and accessories and players at my local club are able to pick up the rules quite easily when I put one off games on. I haven't been able to get a campaign off the ground but it's something I am working towards.

As I am the driving force I too am collecting both sides. My blog is called The White Boar – link

It's good to know the Captain is working towards a new edition this highly entertaining set of rules!