"Recruiting Women" Topic

What specific steps should be taken in order to recruit more women to the tabletop wargaming hobby?

D&D to tabletop mini RPG games to miniatures. Actually, I think it's a natural progression. My son and I introduced my oldest grand daughter to the D&D minis board games and now to Zombicide Black Plague. So, when you pass the torch, pass it to sons and daughters.

None.

Play good games and people who like them will gravitate toward them.

I think RPGing is a good "gateway" activity. Most, or maybe all of the Women that have gamed with us started out RPing.

My group has had success by making the game more of a social event.

We normally meet up at my place for a cook out in the afternoon, have some music a beer or two and hang out on the patio.

We regularly have GFs, wives and even kids around so the female gamers are not on their own and feel more comfortable.

Late afternoon/evening we move to game time and most or all of the extra folks go do something else, see a movie etc…and we get down to gaming.

We also do more "mainstream" activities together like boardgames, BBQ and volleyball, out to dinner and/or movies.

I agree with etotheipi -

none

people shouldn't need to be "tricked" into a hobby.

But I also agree with FTG and BigDan, this doesn't mean dropping them into a epic Napoleonic mass game as their first introduction, easing anyone into the hobby can't hurt.

If they are interested in AWI skirmish gaming, they know where to find me.
I think Scarlet Johanson has such an interest, or at least Black Widow does.

I don't recruit.

Steampunk, time-traveling cats that talk and go on adventures.
link

Seriously, board games are a pretty good start (I got my wife into them). Games like Mice and Mystics link can bridge the gap between board games and minis

The hobby and painting side

More women would have a definite "civilizing" effect on the men folk.

I think this is kind of like the chief (or whatever title she has) of the knitting club asking what do we need to do to recruit more men into knitting.

There are always exceptions, but for the most part wargaming is a male hobby. Of course women are always welcome.

Play fun games, don't be an ass. Same as everyone else.

My wife isn't a gamer, but she played in a massive 15mm ancients game at a con once because everyone was nice.

Women want to build things; relationships, families, a happy home. Asking them to play a game that has hunting and killing your enemy as its focus, no matter how abstracted, seems pointless.

You all know what will happen once you recruits woman, don't you. They will want to change everything the club plays.

As to USAFPilot's question, the answer is apparently "penguins":

link

Don't treat them like mythical creatures that cannot possibly comprehend the intricacies of "roll dice to do stuff".

Our RPG groups were always about fifty/fifty.

Half our group are women and their daughters are now interested.

We did not trick any them to play either. We play historical, fantasy and sci fi. Some of the women even enjoy painting and are very good at it.

Women want to build things; relationships, families, a happy home. Asking them to play a game that has hunting and killing your enemy as its focus, no matter how abstracted, seems pointless.

Tell that to my daughter. She wants all of the above AND roleplaying AND wargaming (Team Yankee is her poison of choice). While other girls her age like clubbing (she is 19), what she likes is to meet with her gaming buddies and play a sesion of Pathfinder, Call of Cthulhu or some games of Team Yankee (she is trying to convince me to buy her "some reinforcements" for her Soviet battalion!). Neither her brother nor I have been able to get her interested in boardgames or Seven Years War, though.

Don't get all sniffy about crossover games like Frostgrave.
I am one of the worst "Oh Shiny" people i know. There is a place for Refights, plausible games between historical opponents, and fantasy and sci fi. Some people want to stick to historical, while others may stay mainly to the sci fi and fantasy realms. We also have different versions of "fun." I want to laugh and joke while playing a game. I also can get too competitive so I try to stay away from tournaments. I know that some people live for their tournaments. To each his/her own

If you REALLY want to do this, go ask Cleo Liebl.

How silly, just play games with people and be open to all people who watch to create a positive atmosphere.

None … all enthusiasts should be welcomed and encouraged equally.

Phil

Design and run games FOR WOMEN – conflict games,
but not wargames.

We have one we designed and ran at H'con. It was
a women's Temperance march on a newly opened saloon
in a small town in the American Midwest, circa 1900.

The women who played in the game enjoyed it.

Title is 'Temperance Tantrum'. There's another we've
been mulling for a couple years, title is 'Sufferin'
Gents,' so you can easily guess the subject matter

My policy has been to include war-gaming games in my classes. In most patriarchical societies girls are not exposed to war-gaming. Add to that the general social dismissal of our hobby and it becomes harder. But the classroom could be a good start. Start a war-gaming club at your kid's school. Incorporate war-gaming into your classes as an educator. Talk with your kids teacher about doing that as well.

There are girls which will feel right in place, but there are also many that will feel as they are not supposed to do this because society has told them so. I noticed it with some of my students. You need to be encouraging. And you need to shut up.

One of the male students was always criticizing the female student's decisions (yes they were terrible, but she had never wargamed before) and generally acting the way I have seen many men act when exposed to female versions of male sports (soccer, football). I.E in a terrible way though not openly (more like faces and grunts). That does not help.

You cannot just have an attitude of hey everybody is the same so if I treat everybody the same way it should work. Some people need more encouragement and support to try something they have never tried before and which about 200 years of social engineering by social conservatives has told them they should not.

In my experience, ladies like more adventure based games, though they can enjoy normal wargaming! EG wargaminggirl.blogspot.co.uk

Offer games that emphasize intelligence and adventure, and avoid mansplaining at all costs.

Also try to present the war-game as a puzzle that requires solution, with simply the difference that the puzzle adapts to your attempt t solve it. Both boys and girls like to solve stuff.

I haven't seen any specific efforts to recruit women into the hobby, but I'm seeing more women of all ages playing and particiating at cons than ever before. If you make the effort to make your gaming accessible to all (and heck if I know how to do that) they will join in. And that is a good thing.

absolutly no effort and no need to do it…why the hell should i mix the most 2 most enjoying entertainments in life: good wargames and good sex?

I thought most of us gamed to get away from the women for a while.

My wife wanted to see what I saw in war games so I taught her to play an ancients game. She proceeded to get mad because I killed one of her units. She said "Why did you kill my men?" That was the last game we played.

I had a female in one of the Viking Pig Wars games I ran at Genghis Con. I offered to swap a female leader for the male figure I'd set out, and she turned me down. I don't know if that was because she thought all I had was gals in chain mail bikinis or what. I'd planned to give her one of the more historically accurate Viking ladies I have. Perhaps the Dice Bag Lady is right: ladies prefer to have female figures that are at least vaguely accurate historically.

Of course, seeing how the guys, given a chance to choose, tend to favor the muscular, bare chested berserker figures that are configured nothing like they (we) are, maybe not . . .

Grelber

While teaching middle schoolers, I saw students of both genders, enjoy Matrix Games. The use of reasoned argument, topical vocabulary and a little chance, seemed to hit a sweet spot with them.

I can't believe this is even a real question.

How about not being condescending and presumptive about "what women like" versus "what men like." That might be a good start.

Really, maybe it's best to actually ask people what might appeal to them, based on a description or demonstration of the hobby, and not be concerned about their gender at all. Because different people, of whatever gender, will be attracted to different aspects, and it's unlikely that any specific group will solely pursue one element of entry above any others. Which shouldn't really be a surprise to anyone, as there's hardly a consensus motivation behind the involvement of anyone here!

Seems rather unnecessary, but if you desire to press ahead, perhaps a bit of mood lighting, some soft music, and a bit of wine……..

For a start, make it a requirement that ALL traders carry blossom tufts – more flowers would definitely bring the ladies.

Instead of crude names like "Skull White" and "Blood Red" for paint, how about those such as "Cherry Blossom" and "A Baby's Smile"

Introduce much simpler games that the female mind can process, and scenarios where it is impossible to lose. A cheery applause will work wonders for motivation, and don't forget the pat and kiss on the head.

Replace guns…. with hugs.

Pipette bottles can be bothersome, a neat trick to encourage your lady companion into sharing your fine hobby could be to decant your paints into nail varnish pots. This method of application will be much more familiar to them and will reduce the liklihood of them being startled.

Make dusty old unattractive gaming halls a thing of the past! Liven up your playing space with some scatter cushions, Take That pumping through the airwaves and some scented candles.

Introduce familiarity. Instead of plain old "seizing the objective", why not explain it in a manner she can understand. "Sweetheart, Topshop have opened a new branch and there is a very splendid pair of shoes in there heavily discounted. You have to get the shoes before anybody else, kill them if you must". Shoes can of course be replaceable with anything else that dames like – kittens, fashionable hats, celebrity magazines and the such like.

BE CAREFUL! If the female human you have turned into a wargamer becomes able to play without your supervision, there is a large danger of fast onset of insanity and ugliness. ONLY TELL THEM 80% OF THE RULES TO MAINTAIN CONTROL!

There were several women wargamers active on TMP a while back who could have expressed an opinion, but I recall they left because of the way they were treated here, or were banned because they complained about how they were treated.

So perhaps not acting like morons around women gamers would be a good start

just leave them alone, they have their own interests and hobbies which they are perfectly happy with.

David, I think you may have hit the nail on the head.

"…….. perhaps a bit of mood lighting, some soft music, and a bit of wine……..".

AND NINJAS!

Who doesn't love those?

Perhaps offering to paint their fingernails, or toe-nails too, occasionally, when going to the salon is inconvenient, or not in the budget. Then, when you've got them relaxed, go for some of the following paint schemes (note – this probably will work best on toenails, unless you can get them ultra-relaxed, and to close their eyes when doing their fingernails – a soothing neck massage might help with that, first):

1. RAF Battle of Britain paint scheme;
2. Pea-dot camo.;
3. Vietnam tiger stripe camo.;
4. Flecktarn;
5. shield heraldry for your favorite HYW knights – note, fingernails almost mimic the shape of those heater shields they used to carry;
6. PT Boat dazzle schemes;
7. Western Approaches naval scheme if your gal prefers pastels;
8. RAF photo-recon pink;
9. Luftwaffe nightfighter splotched or wiggly lines patterns;
10. olive drab;
11. and brushed aluminum.

Of course, do so at your own peril. I'm guessing #8 and #11 may be the safest options for most, excepting the most adventuresome and open-minded significant others.

Lufty McLuftface?

Joking aside – I've seen this discussion come up so many times now, and they always seem to end up kind of answering themselves.
How can we "recruit" more women? It's very complicated to answer. One which tends to just lead people to posting a lot of sweeping generalisations about women, which is incorrect.

Culturally, women aren't encouraged to wargame from a young age, which is when most people dip into the hobby, even if slightly that they return to later in life. So we're in a position where a huge percent of women that wargame have got into this as adults, and in the minority.

I see lots of people encouraging their children to play, regardless of gender, and I am hoping that the next generation will have a much more even balance. Part of what I do (full time!) is consciously trying to get more young girls into the hobby , and judging by the messages in my inbox, it appears to be working. There are still too many people who see wargames as an exclusively "dads and lads" activity. My mum inadvertently introduced me to wargaming, but it doesn't rhyme as well.

The most important thing, I believe is there should be more about preventing women from being discouraged, which I feel is the bigger issue, than trying to actively "recruit".

I run an online group of Women Wargamers, which yes, is pretty handy in being the top trump in this sort of conversation. It's a great community, and full, as you might expect, of people from all backgrounds, ages, marital statuses & sexualities playing an equally wide variety of gaming genres and scales.

There's also a lot of highly depressing conversation about people being disillusioned with the hobby, or quitting, on the edge of quitting, or in despair at the lack of suitable places either online or "real world" where they can not get jip, harassment, or anything else like that.

Most of the time when I find new members (which I have to do like some sort of ninja, as when I have openly advertised it before, we've had all sorts of trolls or imposters trying to see what the secret world of pillow fights and space marines looks like) it's because I've had to dive in and "save" them from some forum or Facebook group.

Many women lurk around wargaming forums under gender neutral names and profile pictures, something I haven't done but totally understand. This is much harder to do somewhere like Facebook, so the abuse seems to be tenfold. When it feels like a simple post about *shrug* I don't know, a paintjob, or a rules query, which happens to be from someone with a female name/face is always destined to end up deleted or locked because of stupid kitchen memes or "I wish U wer my girlfriend", it's thoroughly depressing. These are the women who are already super keen and into the hobby but getting smacked down all the time, that need supporting, before we even think about going out there with metaphorical flyers. What would they even say?

"Ladies! Want to be called both ugly AND sexually harassed at the same time? Want to be patronised and called a "rare unicorn"? Want to sit awkwardly through a tonne of jokes about rape? Want to be unable to attend any sort of event with a huge interrogation about your marital status and sexual orientation? Want to be romantically linked to anyone you interact with? Sign up now!"

There have been days where I have questioned why I have built my entire life (socially and professionally), as well as trying to bring more into a hobby which seems rife with terrible attitudes towards women. I feel it has been a hell of struggle at times. There are awful things I cannot post on a public forum that have happened to me as a direct result of people in this hobby/community. So when it feels like such a huge struggle at times for someone like myself, with the determination of a..concrete elephant, I am imagining that there is a whooooole swathe of women who may lightly dabble into the hobby, experience some of this, and rightly think "Screw this", and leave.

Before the laments of "not all men", yes, this isn't everyone. It's always the minority of assholes ruining something lovely. And of course, yes, I wouldn't be in this if it was constantly terrible.

BUT. The part that breaks my heart, is not the obvious morons (you get them everywhere), it's the lack of men who are otherwise excellent – speaking out against it. I disagree with the term "just as bad as", but it is still bad to turn a blind eye, or laugh off something which should be dealt with.
I know it can be difficult to confront people, and as nerds or geeks or whatever, sometimes we aren't the best at such things (generalisation there for you!) but more of it needs to be done. THAT, I believe is the key key thing towards making this hobby a better place for all.

So make sure your gaming groups, your online groups, your local gaming centres, your trade shows are welcoming, but also places that anyone – not just female – feels like they can raise an issue, and most importantly BE LISTENED TO. Otherwise they will just disappear, and you will be left wondering "Why aren't there as many X in this hobby?"

One example could be when I posted in a Facebook group actively looking for more women for my group, and among the swathes of abuse that followed, was a particularly bad photo of a chap urinating all over a woman. Ok so whoever posted that is a moron on the internet, fine. I watched as the "likes" soared up, still thinking "come on, someone will ban this guy or at least call him a prick". I think in that entire thread there were no more than TWO dudes who came forward to back me and the other women up on that. I think one woman decided right during that thread that she was officially done, way to go guys.

It feels somewhat contradictory to my whole "warrior women badass" ethos, but it is a fact that women are a minority, and will be for some time. And again – this applies to any minority – ethnic, LBGT, disabled (Don't make me rant about the model train shop experience with my friend – both female AND in a wheelchair, that guy's mind was blown way too much that day) the fact is that the very word minority – we are often alone with our experiences in that situation, so knowing there is someone who will listen or "has got your back" (without being overbearingly overprotective) really does mean a lot.

--

Another important thing is to not belittle other's experiences. So for example, you might know a female gamer, who has none of the above, or little of the above issues. But don't mistake a couple of anecdotes for evidence of a wider picture.
As I said, I've at times, had some truly appauling times in this hobby, but as the years have gone on, far far less. It's now at the point where I feel shocked when I hear a sexist comment in person, because I am so used to it not happening anymore(to me!). I've become pretty well known in the hobby, so the whole "argh, a girl" so rarely happens anymore, it's "oh there goes Annie" so you could say have a position of privilege in not experiencing so much sucky behaviour. I've also made sure that the people I game with are all splendid, as well as, sadly, letting the fans of a game dictate how likely I am to play it. So my main games currently are SAGA and Frostgrave, which seem to have especially welcoming and friendly communities both online and at events/gaming clubs. So I'm in a pretty nice bubble. In a similar way a male gamer might be from day one (without years of working at it!). So just because something may not necessarily happen to you, or in front of you, it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Hmm. I ended up typing a lot more there than I intended. As I begun –I've seen this thread, quite possibly hundreds of times. And to me, as woman wargamer, what I typed above, seeing that be such a huge deal to me and my fellow female friends whilst people churn off top tips like "PUT MORE UNICORNS IN THE GAME!" or "INTRODUCE THEM SLOWLY WITH A BIT OF PAINTING" just seems so so far away from the ginormous, lava based elephant in the room.

Annie Norman
The Dice Bag Lady, Bad Squiddo Games
Purveyor of "Believable Female Miniatures"
Needing a cup of tea now.

Women want to build things; relationships, families, a happy home. Asking them to play a game that has hunting and killing your enemy as its focus, no matter how abstracted, seems pointless.

My daughter graduates college in May. She just got a job building things to counter UAVs. She will start with high energy weapons to burn them from the inside out.

Well said Annie.

I've been quite fortunate in that the club I attend has been welcoming and have treated me just as they would any other gamer coming along. Mind you, a few of the older guys do go so far in treating me as "one of the lads" that they forget I'm a woman and use male pronouns (admittedly I am a bit butch/androgynous, but still…).

What The Dice Bag Lady said. It's not so much about recruiting women, but about not actively chasing women away from the hobby.

Excellent contribution Annie. Although I draw the line at Take That….

Annie thank you for your honesty.

That said… In the spirit of truthfulness…

As a minority I refuse to pander to or for anyone. I understand the jibes about someone's being. I have heard the comments about lazy Hispanics, drunk Indians, and being seen as an "Apple" enough to known people are incredibly asisinine b cause of our fallen nature. Words and actions can hurt whether intentional or not.

If you like wargaming I will welcome you no matter what your "category" and as a newbie I will assist you if you have have a question but I expect you to ask, I will back you up but I expect you to defend yourself or express yourself first if you feel something is wrong, and I will be glad to welcome you to my games always unless you prove you to be unwelcome.

I taught my daughters and sons to not stand for being wronged (God help the man or woman who tries to bully any of my four sons/daughters as one woman found out when she tried to intimidate my well under 5 foot oldest daughter and found herself physically backed into a corner as a result) and I expect and respect people who make changes where warranted.

I don't think any adult needs rescue but some do need support.

I will say I find these kind of threads more harmful than helpful and that before you decide to "recruit" some category you might start to change the whole demeaning approach of a "type" and just think of welcoming a person to your games.

Annie. Thank you for your thoughtful and well written response. A lot of food for thought.

Excellent contribution Annie indeed. There are quite a bit of replies on this thread that are nice examples of the problem. Btw Annie I am always looking for a more diverse membership in the 19th century wargames and warfare facebook group. I try to keep it as a place where people can enjoy history without been abused by…difficult chaps. All are welcome the rules are clear, and I rule with an iron fist.

Annie's made excellent points with which I wholeheartedly agree.
I was saddened to read in the newly published Baroque rules by Dadi & Piombo that Rule 8.1.10 {page 44) states:

"Soldiers do not live for war alone. A camp may be equipped with prostitutes. This costs 10 points and raises the VDT by 2 points."

[VDT, for those unfamiliar with Impetus rules, is Demoralization Value and not what you might have thought!]

Prostitution was often a feature of life in armies, but to assign it a points value and apparently regard such women as
'equipment' is in extremely poor taste.

On a happier note, when my daughter was in Year 4 (age 9) I demonstrated my gladiator game to her class in an all girls school. It was a success, and I have been invited back every year since to show it to the Year 4 Latin classes. Of course, I have no idea how many of the girls who enjoy playing the game go on to investigate wargaming – my own daughter, now 14, certainly never has!