"What role would Australia played in a cold war gone hot?" Topic

If you were looking at a 1980s Cold war gone hot scenario what would Australia have done? For all the Aussie service men and women who served in the 80s what did you prepare for?
I am trying to work out scenarios where I can use the RAAF, RAN and The Australian Army in such games. Being a proud Aussie I am equally proud of all those who served!

Probably something involving our Navy working with the US against any Soviet navy assets operating in the pacific. There would have been buckleys of any of our defence forces being involved in Europe. We didn't, we don't, have the lift capability to move anything of significance over there.

There would have been buckleys of any of our defence forces being involved in Europe

What's a 'Buckley', McWong?

John T

Named after William Buckley, a convict who fled and improbably survived

Australian Slang for a snow ball's chance in H###

Hopefully, we'd have had some leadup time because the answer is we were not actively preparing for a hot war.

From PDF link

"… The 1975 Strategic Basis Paper ‘was explicit that there was no requirement for the maintenance of Australian military forces for conflict in South-East Asia' and that ‘there were no military threats to Australia or the prospect of major assault'. In 1976, a newly-elected government issued a Defence White Paper, Australian Defence, that explained Australia's changed strategic circumstances and emphasised force projection into the ‘neighbourhood' rather than ‘some
distant or forward theatre'.50 The ANZUS Treaty partners began conducting the Kangaroo series of exercises in 1974, 1976 and 1979. David Horner described exercise scenarios during this period as ‘a window into the nature of the threat that the ADF [Australian Defence Force] was preparing to counter'. There were no scenarios based on offshore counterinsurgency or expeditionary operations. Initial exercises in the 1970s simulated conventional operations that in some ways replicated Korean War scenarios of offensive and defensive operations on land, with accompanying close air support. The navy simulated
battles like those fought in the Coral Sea in 1942 and the air force fought off notional encroachments of Australian airspace by hostile military aircraft and provided air cover for the navy. By the early 1980s, land force elements exercised to defend small incursions by hostile forces intent on sabotaging Australia's mining infrastructure in the northwest (Kangaroo 83) and the navy and the air
force exercised in the northern sea and air approaches to the continent. Small contingents left Australia in support of UN overseas operations. None were urgent, large scale or particularly dangerous. Similarly, force elements from each service operated offshore as tokens of support and demonstrations of resolve as part of Cold War surveillance operations. Several hundred ADF personnel, mostly from the army, served in support of the PNG Defence Force (PNGDF) after independence in 1975. The Government had wound this effort back by 1985.

The ADF was not ‘a truly joint force' by 1985. It lacked joint doctrine and clearly enunciated and practised joint command arrangements. However, this situation was about to change. …."

Fanciful Scenarios

1) Defence of Malaysia and Singapore (Five Nations pact – Army, Navy, Air Force and NZ) against limited Soviet/Vietnamese incursions.

2) Defence of ANZ – Spetsnaz troops in cargo ships, a small task force lands in Tasmania or North Island of NZ, submarine attacks, maybe a nuclear blast over one capital city, local communist insurgency

3) Oberon subs attack Russian ships in Da Nang

4) an RAN carrier A4 strike on Da Nang

5) F-111s (with Mirage-3/FA-18 CAP) attack Da Nang or Southern China

6) ASW with allies to allow shipping to reach ANZ

7) Supporting the Indonesian Govt against a Soviet sponsored coup

They would provide the last refuge for the survivors from the northern hemisphere.

A runway for American bombers

Yea, unsinkable carrier and naval base, though if things got really ugly they could make you glow……..

I read a book on a war between Australia and India fighting over the Cocos Islands. All three services involved. It was similar to a Falklands War combat.

Thanks Munster – not one I'd heard of!

John T

In UK Nuclear War planning, the main role of Canada, Australia and New Zealand was:

1. a place for the Polaris/Trident subs to go to once they'd fired their warheads (or not, depending on the MPs letter).

2. a source of food for the flattened UK (assuming any ports had survived to allow the ships to dock).

3. a place for survivors to go

FM, from the mid 70's until about '93 the government had no intentions of sending more than token forces anywhere. As a couple noted, the RAN may have been attached to the USN for service in the Pacific or eastern Indian oceans. The RAAF may have been committed to support the US as well, but I doubt it- they'd be tied up patrolling to the north (the government hasn't forgotten the lack of fighters in '41-'42) and providing a strike deterrent in case one of our neighbours got ambitious.

The army, though, was practicing for continental defence. In theory that meant training to deploy a battalion group from Townsville (the ODF, now RDF) quickly to defend the north or NW. Later the rest of 3BDE would follow and the forces would build up if necessary.

In reality that meant a shortage of boots, ammo' (ball and blank), people and even rat packs, as budgets were cut to the bone. A MILAN team was lucky to fire one live missile in three years. Tanks and APC's were trucked around training areas, only moving tactically for specific purposes, to conserve track miles. Training was cut back- in 1979 I spent eight months in the bush, but in 1990 I spent perhaps ten weeks. Of the six battalions only two were anything near full strength and could move in under 7 days. The rest would be ready in 14 to 56 days….

To save funds readiness was reduced every budget, we had to "improve productivity" ("From now on you will hit two targets with every round fired!" were the orders on the range after that announcement- perhaps a little tongue in cheek) and even the pension disappeared for newbies in '93. No more than one company was readied to evacuate Aussies from Fiji in '87 and a lot of soldiers were detached from 2/4RAR to 1RAR to bring 1RAR up to strength for Somalia in 93. (That worked in the army's favour, as the government realised what the budget cuts had done).

Realistically, we could fight bush fires, floods and natural disasters, such as Newcastle after the quake. We showed in Malaysia, Somalia and East Timor we could still conduct counterinsurgency operations as well as we'd done in Vieties.

But a determined, well-armed enemy during WWIII? We'd have been green-clad jungle speed bumps (but productive ones).

Dal.

After the UK screwed over Australian and New Zealand primary industry in a scramble to enter the EU (I had family in farming in both countries) I doubt that there would have been any prospect of a hand out for the UK in the form of food or other supplies.

Maybe there would have been some re-settlement of refugees but again after the first waves of 'boat people' from Vietnam there was considerable antipathy towards what would now be termed 'Economic Refugees' from the UK. Maybe families from the US would have been more popular as the US was viewed as a good friend post-ww2, much more than the UK.

After the UK screwed over Australian and New Zealand primary industry in a scramble to enter the EU

Just in case you're interested in the facts, its now widely accepted that the unshackling of NZ agriculture in the late 70's was the best thing that happened to NZ, after the govt was able to cut back on all the subsidies – NZ farming, and so the wider economy, since went form strength to strength. And certainly there is no shortage of NZ butter and lamb on UK supermarket shelves – only now the punters pay full market price!

Certainly I've not come across any other bad feeling towards the Brits – during the 1982 Falklands War the Kiwis stepped forward to volunteer one of their few Frigates to take over a UK commitment in the Gulf to free the Brit frigate to sail South…a fuss wasn't made, obviously, but it happened.

As for the Aussie farmers, well I suspect they simply just got on with it…

Probably doesn't help in the context of getting toys on the table, but its worth remembering that there were an awful lot of kiwis and aussies serving in British units during the Cold War and after – and some of them even had nicknames other than 'Oz' or 'Bruce' – which proves there must have been quite a few!

My RM Colour Serjeant at Dartmouth was an 'Oz' – but we called him 'Colours' to his face!

For what its worth my mate Bryan is painting his TY force up as Aussies, but for unspecified operations against the dreaded Kamarainians or Musorians, probably up in the hot and wet…

I believe he's talking about the UK scrapping the special low tarrif placed on Commonwealth produced goods being imported, not govt subsidies of primary industry.

There is an additional meaning of the Australian term "… buckley's chance of that happening …". One from the southern Australian State of Victoria.

When I was a boy, growing up in the 60's and 70's in Victoria, there was still an ancient and ageing Department Store in the central city area of Melbourne, the State Capitol, named "Buckley's & Nunn's", presumably named after the founding partners. In Victoria, at least in my Schools, to say someone or had something had "buckley's" of ever happening mean't it had no or "Nunn" chance. A twist on the name of the Department Store.

A lot may be influenced by political activity in China and India. If either bacame hostile to the interests of Australia or its allies, then they may become very active. During the Capstone program, the force creation for Korea and the far East, there were some plans involving Australia from a logistical point of view which is what I worked on.

A lot has to do with how unpredictable SE Asia and India/Pakistan as well as China and North Korea acted.

FM, what scale are you looking at? COY level? Battalion? Brigade?

Here's a couple I used for a campaign in Steel Panthers MBT that may be of interest. They're all really far fetched, but created some interesting scenarios.

1. Political instability in SE Asia and increased terrorist activity leads to India/PRC/Indonesia/USA (choose all or any) decide to secure Narbalek and Ranger uranium mines, to prevent them falling into "bad" hands. As a preliminary the decision is made to land on the Top End east coast near Maria Island and to seize the port facilities at Darwin. A and B SQN 1 ARMD, A SQN 2 CAV, 5/7RAR, 103 MDM BTY and support troops have got to Humpty Doo while 3 BDE are at Wilton- all one week before any landings. Break down the actions to taste and the terrain mix should vary from open and hot to swamps and even some FIBUA around Darwin. Enemy forces can be taken from a USMC MEF, Indian/Indonesian SF, etc, and a couple of three-way battles would be possible. Set the year before the USMC get M1 tanks or it's just a roll over for them against Australians.

2. WA, supported by the US or USSR, secedes at the height of the 80's mining boom. Canberra, supported by whoever didn't support WA, grows a vestigal spine and tries to take it back. Plenty of room to use allied forces as enemy or main friendly force. It also opens up the possibility of AUS forces having some capabilities we've not had since 1942, such as mobile AAA/SAM at BDE or BN level.

Apart from that I think you'd be looking at Borneo, Malaysia or VN type scenarios set in the Top End.

Also, what Rudy wrote, particularly with claims by India against the Cocos-Keeling islands. If anything in the way of oil had been found there, India may have decided to chance it.

Cheers.

Dal.

Mako, does his mother know he's playing on a computer?

Thank you gentlemen….Dal I was hoping you would wade in! As for the serial pest he seems to pick a lot of my posts. Perhaps I am being paranoid but when every one is against you its hard not to be :P

It's not paranoia, Jason, it's self preservation. You still haven't told me what scale you're looking at for ground forces. It's a big empty area (as you well know) whixh raises all sorts of possibilities.

How about the Battle of Humpty Doo Pub? It would be between A and D COY 2/4 RAR.

Few pwoplw understand the contributions and sacrifices that the Australian army has made in the stidy of chemical/biological protection back in the 1970s.
An entire island coated with various agents with soldiers running patrols through them in various stages of MOPP gear. The film was very shocking and informative. Cudos to them.

I thought scenario 2 was actually looking quite plausible a couple of years ago – apart from Canberra growing a spine – anyway seems to have gone away with the drop in mineral prices…lol!

As in the film "On the Beach" by Neville Shute, they would probably be the ones who go to look to see if anyone survived in the Northern Hemisphere and check the radiation levels slowly spreading to the Southern hemisphere.

Rudy, what film was that? I never heard a peep about what you wrote.

They used to do NBC courses in the 70's and early 80's. I did mine in '79, with CS taking the place of noxious agents and saline solution filling the squash bulbs instead of counter agents. Still, working in 35°C temperatures at TOPP 3 does wonders if you want to lose weight. Not so good if you don't have any to lose, though.

N417, yeah, the spine bit is "out there", but it works in a fantasy scenario. As for prices, that's market manipulation- people still need bits of the country that can be smelted, melted and formed. Buying is so much simpler at the moment, but if it wasn't….?

Cheers.

Dal.

Sorry Dal I didn't answer your question on scale. I am mainly looking Air/Sea operations in 1/700. Thinking I might run with a Timor Sea escalation with Indonesia rather than cold war gone hot. I just want an excuse to buy this Anzac frigate plus its Seahawk and some Hornets and Pigs to fly from Darwin!
link

sorry guys , late to the party !

may I offer from Australia's perspective in/of the mid-1980's Cold War period .

In ‘recent times' (circa 1985) ;
1. Despite involvement in the Vietnam war as a faithful ally of the US since at least 1962 , including paying its' own expenses throughout the war (other allies eg. Sth Korea, were totally funded by the USA), the Australian government felt marginalised in the conduct of the Vietnam conflict despite a very high "soldiers-per-capita" commitment from a small population , and for example only "officially" found out about the US policy of disengagement from the Vietnam war (circa 1971) via US civilian TV news services ..not via direct diplomatic channels which a faithful longstanding ally would have fairly expected. In the period just after disengagement from the Vietnam War the feeling of distrust for the USA in highest levels of the defence establishment was acute.

2. The post-WW2 Sukarno government of Indonesia was sympathetic to Communism, invading Dutch West Papua (the west half of new Guinea just above Australia) in 1961 before it had a chance to vote on self rule. The 1965 Indonesian communist party uprising was (literally) slaughtered in 1965-66 by the rising Suharto power-bloc who took power by 1967.
Being staunchly anti-communist, the new Suharto government gained US and CIA support regardless of the emerging stories of wholesale ethnic and political slaughter in the Indonesian archipelago.
In 1975 in response to (Indonesian sponsored) civil war in the Portugese colony of East Timor, Indonesia sought unofficial diplomatic approval from the USA to ‘take control' of East Timor. Australia strongly objected to this as it was direct witness to the deteriorating humanitarian situation in West Papua (now renamed Irian-jaya) including actions that could only be described as genocide against the unhappy Papuans. Despite Australian objections, the US gave tacit approval to Indonesia, and they invaded East Timor in late 1975, killing Aussie jounalists and expats in the ‘crossfire'. By 1977 the US was the biggest buyer of Indonesian oil, and the US-owned Freeport mine in West Papua / Irian-jaya was a few years into mining the "biggest deposit of copper, gold and silver in the world".

3. The surfacing of mid-1970's US duplicity wrt to ‘shared' information from the US-Australian operated ‘Pine gap' listening station in central Australia. Apparently the US was not sharing information, being worried about the left-leaning Prime Minister (Gough Whitlam) of the day exposing Pine Gaps' capabilities to Communist Governments. Apparently later it was alleged that the CIA had applied pressure to ‘dismiss' Gough Whitlam (! the prime minister of a longstanding friendly ally nation) because of fears he would close down US bases (incl. Pine gap) on Australian soil. (this is part of the "Falcon and the Snowman" story , the Hollywood movie released…. in 1985. )

….. So circa 1985 Australian government had developed a "go-it-alone" policy of self-reliance ; the Australian government (ie; defence establishment) felt at this time that the US was not a reliable ally beyond its' own self-interests. Accordingly, a policy of not getting involved in regional conflicts was undertaken with the emphasis on bolstering the Australian Navy and Airforce and moving the Army's centre of gravity to the north of Australia (eg. to Townsville away from the population centres of the south east of Australia) and Units such as the "Regional Force Surveillance Units" (a reincarnation of the WW2 "Coastwatcher" units), were formed at this time.
The Australian Defence Force (ADF) strategy at this time was to meet any potential invader a long way offshore with strike aircraft (F111C's) or diesel-electric submarines, or by mining key sea-lanes. The SASR likely would have been positioned at key shipping channels in Indonesia or New Guinea to monitor invasion fleet progress and cause further mischief as need be. But at the time it was considered that there was no likely enemy in the region capable of sustaining an invasion of Australia apart from (very very generously) the Soviet Union or maybe PR China, who both had their own domestic issues. Australia is a big empty harsh place …in 1985 Darwin, Cairns, and perhaps Broome were the only useful northern ports, and there are only four roads (not all-weather) in the northern third of the continent.

( Yeah , so you just miraculously secretly airlanded an airborne brigade at Darwin airport ? .. good one , now what are you going to do ?)

Australia still had a few home grown technical tricks up its' sleeve however,… shared US/UK expertise in NBC technology of the day (and a plan on how to use it), expert signals interception, unique long-range over-the horizon radar, and ‘pilotless aircraft' technology (think surveillance drones or improvised cruise missiles), that perhaps may have been made to work if need be.
Hopefully all of this perspective from now more than 30 years-ago might be useful for your scenario development.

It might become relevant again sooner than later.

cheers

jimmi

US Army Chemical School training school film. It was also sent to all US military posts for use by their chemical courses for line units. This was back in 1978.

One squad covered troops in regular shorts and short selves, one squad in long pants and long shirts and one squad in full protective suits.
The examined the effects of mustard gas on the various troops. The effects on moist areas of the underarm and between the legs was particularly intense. More than one soldier in the class was tossing their cookies.

CBR training for regular troops is different than that taken by company and battalion CBR officers and NCOs.

FM, you need an excuse? A more courageous stance by the Australian government over E. Timor 1975-1985 may have seen the sort of actions you're describing, mate.

capt jimmi

So circa 1985 Australian government had developed a "go-it-alone" policy of self-reliance……… Units such as the "Regional Force Surveillance Units" (a reincarnation of the WW2 "Coastwatcher" units), were formed at this time.

No, mate. The RFSU's were formed in 1981, being conceived as an adjunct to the formation of the ODF. 7 Independent Rifle Company were getting ready for the transition to NorForce in September 1980, when my platoon was sent up to play enemy for their annual field exercise (it was a very "interesting" trip, including the permanent loss of most of our platoon weapons when two assault craft broached and capsized near the mouth of the Daly River- the RAN divers said recovery was impossible due to local "conditions"). John George had just taken over 7IRC, to do the transformation, when we got there. Unfortunately he was the same as the last time I'd been under his command. The ARes weren't overly fond of him, either, after just 2 weeks of his reign.

We were invited back for the change over parade, but it was the middle of '81 and 2/4 had our own unit commitments, so nobody went.

Rudy, that sounds like the late/post-WWII experimentation that was done on behalf of Oz, the US and UK. We saw the film (broken into parts) as part of my NBC course. They were smart and showed it just before lunch, so not many bolted for the doors. Though the film incapacitating diarrhea effects got me heaving, not the mustard gas ones.

Like the Maralinga nuclear tests, the troops used in the testing have had their problems and medical needs largely ignored by the British and Australian governments. Nothing new about that….

Dal.

Hi Dal,

I'm not trying to be too specific on exact dates but trying to paint a picture of the ADF mindset of the period for the sake of scenario development.

I'd agree that the RFSU concept was up and running in 1981, but suggest it was very early days and was still in a ‘proof of concept' stage. I don't remember the term "RFSU" being used until the later 80's.
At this time , I'd suggest that "51 IRC" (now "51FNQR") based in Cairns would not have been able to mount more than three or four competent ‘unsupervised' six-man patrols at this time (eg. 1986's Ex Diamond Dollar near Coen) with very second-rate equipment, and for example Norforce wasn't able to offer much more for Ex Kangaroo '88 (near lake Argyle).

I offer this to suggest for the purposes of circa 1985-ish "Cold-war" wargaming scenario development ;

1. Australia would have been very hesitant to deploy the Army (other than the SASR and maybe the ODF) offshore. Even the relatively fairly competent and well equipped (ARes) Commando IRCs would have been unlikely to be tasked offshore.

2. The plan was to meet any invading force a long way offshore with the RAN and RAAF.

3. Any invading force would have had the "RFSUs" of the day tasked to monitor them via long-range patrolling. These would have been small teams of local reservists led by very experienced (and imaginative) ex-SASR types prepared to act in a 'stay-behind' capacity.

4. other than that… we really only had 3Bde in Townsville (3RAR in Holsworthy) , 6Bde in Brisbane/ Enoggera, and 1Bde in Holsworthy and Pucka to send north.

Does that sound right ?

Jimmi

I am not that familiar with Australian kit changes from WW2until 1970s so I am not sure what the dates were for the training film. When I was stationed at the Chemical school, we as QM could see their available training films and they were different than what we could get at fort Hood.
Take. Care and thank all of the Australian veterans for me.

jimmi, I see where you're going, mate, and agree with most of that. It was a very "interesting period" to be wearing a green skin. 7IRC was pretty much a "white man's social club" in '80, with few non-Skippies serving. I'll give Georgey Boy credit for recruiting and using the skills of the Aboriginal people, but it took a few years before NorForce's abilities matched the government and Army News hype. 51FNQR were luckiest, they got Warrie George Mansford as CO. He was a legend in the RAR before Mad Galahs was published, a hard man but he knew it all. He was quite happy to open up the North Coast Drinking Society to TI's and Aborigines, and probably got 51 effective before NorForce was.

Oz was definitely depending a lot on the US' friendship and 36 F-111's as deterrence. Especially after they gutted the rest of the army to bring the ODF (temporarily) up to strength. More stupid was cutting some of the RAN's conditions of service and RAAF flight hours, so the two services we relied upon most were hemorrhaging people at the time they were most needed.

Rudy, the US and OZ have been on the same side since 1815 (the NSW Corps was in the US for the end of the 1812 unpleasantness). We owe you and your veterans as much thanks as any you owe ours.

Hahahaha !
Warrie George !… I haven't heard that name for a long time !

Yes ..as much as I suggest that Australia was undertaking a "go it alone" strategy … we would not have turned away US support/ assistance whatsoever. Perhaps the real benefit of high-value US bases on Aussie soil would be that the USA would be obliged to defend them. Not a bad return for a lease on a few sq km of unusable real-estate outside of Alice Springs.

An "interesting period" ..yes ! ..they were the best of times , they were the worst of times. Hahaha!
I remember sometime in this period being told that the typical Army private earned less than what the (Hawke-Keating) government declared as the poverty line.

Warrie George !… I haven't heard that name for a long time !

He was a great soldier, exceptional leader and brilliant man. I had him as CI DFSW Wing (or whatever it was called in the mid-late '70's) when I did my SFMG course, then again at Tully- detached for ~three months as a GD helping get it ready in late '80, then returning in the first platoon through in Feb '81.

I remember sometime in this period being told that the typical Army private earned less than what the (Hawke-Keating) government declared as the poverty line.

True story, unfortunately. I'd had to leave INF and went to RAEME, trained as a boffin and was on PayL 6, the highest for PTE soldiers. Officially I was $300.00 AUD above the poverty line ln 1985, so PayL1 to 4 (70%) had to be below. The Armed Forces Federation of Australia was formed specifically because of the situation.

Apologies FM for straying well off topic.

No apologies necessary…great to be an eavesdropper in an interesting discussion!