"Why the mystical link between the Dawghouse and Napoleonics?" Topic

What is it about the Napoleonic Discussion board that brings the most Dawghouse-prone, like moths to a flame, to exhibit bad behavior?
No other boards do this. Not World War 2, not Ancients, not American Civil War, not…. Oh wait. Ultramodern.
What is it about 1799-1815 that brings out the worst behavior?

We had an experiment once where all stupid arguments were to be confined to Napoleonic Discussion, while "scholarly debate" would go on Napoleonic History. Fine in theory, except that stupid arguments infested both boards.

With SOME PEOPLE, the only time you ever see their name, you can guarantee they will be locked up the next day.
What is it about Napoleonics?

many Napoleonic players have Napoleon complexes…

Because painting little crossbelts drives people nuts?

Solid theory, Choctaw, and I think it can be expanded – the more intricate the paint schemes necessary for a period, the more unhinged the average wargamer of that period. Which direction the causation runs remains an open question.

Then why do you not see the same acrimony discussing the Seven Years War or Jacobites?

Napoleonics link to dawghouse?

Because there are no more obsessive-compulsive-passionate gamers than Napoleonic gamers.

Ever since Bill put in the express tunnel from the back of the Napoleonics board (it's hidden by the bookcase) to the Dawghaus, plus going to electronic tolling….

Yeah tempers seem to run high in that neck of the woods. For quite a few folk its almost as though it is unfinished business politicaly.

Lots of knowledge there too and in my brief forays I've been met with unfailing courtesy and helpful advice.

I blame it all on bricoles.

And also that for many, Nap is a hero, and for many he is a villain. So the fanboys square off against the haters and there you go.

Painting several hundred figures the EXACTLY THE SAME WAY tends to drive people over the edge.

I feel it's been a long time since napoleonics board was doghouse main supplier.

Now modern board….

Excessive pedantry and people transposing 200 year old events on modern society?

That'd be my guess. It actually held me off from writing for the period for years, but eventually people convinced me that there's plenty of people who do want to have fun.

I think the era is a frustrating one, with potentially a mass of information to collect (so many countries, personalities, units, campaigns…the first "World War"?)

A huge bureaucracy that did now keep exhaustive records, in the modern style, unlike earlier eras……but so little preserved or at least accessible. That then encourages opinions and "recollections", often of myths and legends. The experts then take it too personally.

The later, more recent, the war…. the better the records. Conversely, by the ECW, most will admit no-one knows nor are they ever likely to for certain….so less to argue!

I have pronounced here, confidently but erroneously, that French Light Units never used drums, that British cavalry trumpeters rode greys, that Crabbe is the third ADC with Ney in the panorama…..that sort of thing just adds to the confusion

Non historical figure promotes much debate as that of Napoleon … there are haters and lovers like in any other important man in history….

Amicalement
Armand

Sure he was only a little chap…not very tall at all, at all………(that'll get them going)

Bonapartists versus non-Bonapartists. Seriously, some of these individuals are supporting a non-existent ideology. Also what Weasel wrote.

Egos!

Mmmm…I think it's been a while since the Napoleonics' boards incivility reigned supreme. Seems like the modern boards have picked up the slack.

That said, there are a couple fellowes (who are also active on other Napoleonic forums) whose hobby is simply to argue. The game is not to prove a point, or even win--it's simply to argue online. And they have amazing amounts of spare time to throw at it.

Deadhead makes a good point about the information available--there's so much of it, (and with the internet, getting to it doesn't make taking two weeks off to hit the archives in Vienna)…but…it's not complete. And that leaves room for interpretation and…'discussion.'

Because there are no more obsessive-compulsive-passionate gamers than Napoleonic gamers.

But many of the feistiest posters on here are not gamers. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

I could tell you why but I'd end up in the Dawghouse!

As in academics, the fighting is so vicious because the rewards are so small?

Non historical figure promotes much debate as that of Napoleon … there are haters and lovers like in any other important man in history….

I wonder if this is one of the first periods that some people feel reflects on the current era? That supporting Napoleon is a vote for "progress" now and against "privilege"? In a way which is impossible for the issues in the WSS, SYW or TYW, for instance?

None of the current residences arrive from the Nappie board.

Ok here it is, but don't tell anyone else. Oh wait someones at the door.Ok its Nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

Cyrus the the great for the Win! Egos.

Ffs bricole…….

"I wonder if this is one of the first periods that some people feel reflects on the current era? That supporting Napoleon is a vote for "progress" now and against "privilege"?

Dunno about that. Some of the fiercest pro-Nap guys are also pretty staunchly authoritarian in their current-day politics and quite hawkish. They're also pretty ready to defend Nap's views on slavery, censorship, seizure of personal property by the state, and rule by decree.

I don't see a whole lot of connection between admiration for Nap and admiration for those namby-pamby progressive values like a free press, habeas corpus, property rights, the emancipation of slaves, or the democratic process.

Mind you, I don't have any heroes from this period so I'm not taking a side or preferring one autocrat over another. My heroes are from more recent history.

My theory is when the Empire board was created the individuals who seem to be the most volatile, were cast off into their own universe.

A pity, I always thought the Napoleonic Discussion board was quite entertaining. But now its a little boring.

Although every so often the ACW board can create a ruckus.

I think DeadHead has it right.

It is far enough back in time that there are a variety of records, and close enough back in time that there are not so many that things can be resolved. Further back, and we can agree with grace that we can't be sure. More recent, and there are definitive Prussian staff studies and enough common-man literacy to provide enough data to settle many arguments. There is also the disconnect of it being just before the industrial revolution, so many methods that we "implicity know" had to be done differently- in ways we do not understand.

I think the era is a frustrating one, with potentially a mass of information to collect (so many countries, personalities, units, campaigns…the first "World War"?)

A huge bureaucracy that did now keep exhaustive records, in the modern style, unlike earlier eras……but so little preserved or at least accessible. That then encourages opinions and "recollections", often of myths and legends. The experts then take it too personally.

The later, more recent, the war…. the better the records. Conversely, by the ECW, most will admit no-one knows nor are they ever likely to for certain….so less to argue!

I have pronounced here, confidently but erroneously, that French Light Units never used drums, that British cavalry trumpeters rode greys, that Crabbe is the third ADC with Ney in the panorama…..that sort of thing just adds to the confusion

The real point is not whether Napoleon or his enemies were Bad Guys.
One can have the same discussion about Frederick the Great.
The question is really why Napoleonics in particular attracts such animosity on TMP while other equally contentious periods do not. Ultramodern is the only one that comes close, and we are living in that one.

Hello Winston Smith!

I think it's simply numbers. It's probably the most active board. You have also mentioned "SOME PEOPLE". That's the real key.

Before I joined TMP many members in my group had already departed because of the prevailing attitude on the Napoleonic Board. I gradually encountered pretty much all of the "SOME PEOPLE" in one way or another.

The Editor was finally forced to take further action against some of them and kicked them out. Within the last couple of years a few others departed on their own accord. The odd one has returned under a new name and seems to be trying to maintain a low profile. Although a few are still here they also seem to be trying to behave themselves. It seems that as their numbers have dwindled so has the opportunity to stir up the pot.

The Napoleonic Board now seems to have put the bad years behind it. Hopefully it will become the gentlemanly place that it should have always been.

Best regards,

Glenn

Because I spell Wurtemburgers a different way every time I type it, which drives everyone insane, especially those living in Wurtembergia.
Case closed, and sorry about the mess.

More so than any other era, the Napoleonic is prone to revisionism, usually around who did most to win it. Along with a recent tendencies to feel uneasy with the kind of sweeping judgments of national character that people at that time had no issue with, this has meant that some quite daft opinions have been given a more respectful hearing than they properly deserve while some long standing views have been dismissed (by revisionists) as old hat.

It's a potent mix.

In the late 70s there was a vicious feud among Anvients cliques over what a rhomphaia looked like. The heat arose in large measure because nobody knows.

How do I get to this almost legendary stage? I have never yet been to this level of Dante's Inferno…The Dawghouse. I have twice really upset folk inadvertently, in my early days, but made the mistake of apologising.

There was a particularly bad image of RHA, modelling and painting and photography…but otherwise fine. I had no idea that the creator might see my comments.

The other I will not revisit. I was right, he was wrong, but he felt insulted.

So would it be fun to hear why folk were Dawghoused…or does that lead to a second sentence?

Look, I feel you can choose whoever you want as Republican candidate, I feel your gun laws make perfect sense as long as they apply in the USA,I have no problem with anyone marrying anyone as long as they are human and are old enough to know what they are doing.

Does that get me Dawghoused?

Ha! Pennsylvania Railroad modelers make Napoleonic painters/gamers look like amateurs. Just say "Brunswick Green is actually black with a drop of green per barrel" in a crowded room of PRR modelers, and you will get a riot. The Standard Railroad of the World my foot.

Now, since you mention it………..shades of green………Rifle Green……obviously depends on the scale of the figure I know……….

Aurore, Polish Crimson, French Artillery Green, Prussian Dragoon pale blue…….

Railroad modellers have it easy now.

EEEH, when I were a lad, we dreamt of railroad colours and the levels and quality of evidence they enjoy.

Kids nowadays…they don't know they are born……it were different back then.

Our Dad, he'd come in't door, 'e'd beat me and our lad black and blue and 'e'd say "Wha's tha not finished them bloomin' Mamelukes?"

beat you black and blue…
ehh you had it easy!

when I was a lad and my da beat me, I was all the colours of the rainbow – even brunswick green.

mamelukes, mamelukes he says – I'd think it was me birthday if I ad just mamelukes to do. I ad to finish the whole roossian army and get the flags right every single day with nothing but 3 tins of paint and a scrap of squirrel hair.

kids these days..

btw Nap boards seem far more civilized these days compared to those on modern – unfair accusation I feel.

Little wooden blocks with stickers//// LITTLE WWOODEN BLOCKS WITH STICKERS/////. I serve the MASTER! He's COMING TO GIVE ME LIIIIFE!!!
(Richard Borg floats through the open window in a black cape with a crescent moon in the background). Act 5 scene 11…. "Renfield----yoooo Haaahv beehtrayyyd mee, no maaahster, I have toooo sets of all European for to make beeeeeg battles……. Ahhhh goooood

1.Whirlwind, are you trying to reap a whirl wind? Progress vis a vis priveledge? As a retired veteran I just gotta keep my bourbon hole shut in public, or my face and those around me would look like one of Nelson Jr petty officers.
2. Garth in the park, spot on, the academics don't seem to understand the disconnect in the correlation with the. "Bell curve" of napoleonic social civic policy so long as it supported the state ability to maintain itself as a viable military state.
3. Tyshyrock, I will never know how to properly refer to people from the fine state of Hanover (and it really is a nice place, I spent three is in Germany). I think different areas in the bundes republic call it slightly different things.
4. I love napoleonics. Love them. But let's be realistic. I have a head injury (no whining, no pity party-I'd do it all again in a parsec if I could. I injured my back in a mortar strike, pushed thru because who was going to handle the commo? I have trouble with button belts braid cords and especially musket barrels. So CC naps came along. Boy howdy. Say what you will, this really is a miniatures game.
5. And yes. I admire the emperor and would probably follow him down the street if he would happen to march through Louisville with a peloton of drum and fifes and wagons filled with muskets and 1815 habit vests and shakos.

I think I like both the general reasons.
First, abundant detail is sort of available, so there's a continual back and forth between "I remember reading it in a secondary account somewhere" and "it's in THESE archives with THIS folio number."
Second, it's still unfinished business. You want to see the French Revolution in progress? You can't see it in western Europe, where the process is almost complete. Go to the Balkans, the former Soviet republics or post-colonial Africa, Asia and Latin America and watch the elites in the capitals centralizing everything, breaking down local distinctions, educating linguistic minorities out of existence and cutting really good business deals for themselves.
Add to this that it's a popular period with arguments which cannot be settled (bayonet combat? firepower effectiveness?) because "the plural of anecdote is not data." Not too surprising that some of the arguments just won't come to a clear conclusion.
As for the hundreds of identical figures with facing colors and crossbelts, I find they have a soothing effect. You can see progress. A few hundred 5mm figures in ranks, painted and grassed and with flags, looks like something. Sometimes with WWII microscale, I can't figure out why I bother to do more than spraypaint and wash.

So for the first hundred years after the Napoleonic Era everything written about it was in English. What everybody got was the English version of history. For the next 50 years after that French was translated into English and so everybody argued about whether the French interpretation was right or the English interpretation. then people started translating Prussian and Austrian accounts and everybody argued about that. Now people are translating the minor German States, Spanish and Russian accounts and we're arguing about that. Pretty soon someone will translate the Turkish accounts and we'll argue about that. So if you want to blame it on someone, blame it on English speakers for inventing the internet first. If we were writing in Hindu or Mandarin there'd be an objective rendering and no one would argue because they didn't have anything invested in the English/French/Prussian/Austrian/Russian/Swedish/Spanish/Turkish account in the first place…

Daler 240D has hit it on the head.

Too many people think they are Napoleon.

LOL ! Good answer Otto ! Nice to hear from you !

The Napoleonics board has actually quieted down – not half as much fun when the Idiot Tendency was here having a go at Mad Hoffy.

Today the main problem on TMP is the Ultramodern Board and the the fanboys on the FoW Board having a fit of the vapors every time some criticizes the product.

Hmmm. Are we talking about the mythical link or that the link is mythical?

I vote for the latter. Why it exists, I have no idea. I have seen flame wars around most periods, particularly WWII. Maybe if there are more on the Napoleonic threads, its only because they tend to be over more interesting topics than the thickness of armor at a 25% angle.

Just a guess.

Too many people think they are Napoleon.

As compared to Lee, Forrest, Rommel or Patton? I guess the ACW and WWII have avoided having 'too many.'

WW2 gamers have their own issues, but that's usually more about knowing exactly how worn the tires on a particular armoured car was, during Operation KettleChips on the third day, and whether that degree of wear would have affected its ability to fire accurately at 328 meters.

Oh, and Nazis.

The political debates over black powder periods are funnier though, since its well over a hundred years ago and none of us were alive then.

But I've seen people get legitimately mad about discussing Greeks vs Persians so who knows. Maybe it's never too late.

I think the problem with Napoleonics, possibly more than with other historical periods, is that some people just can't or simply won't accept that people may have different points of view on certain aspects, characters and events concerning the Revolutionary and Napoleonic period. They may not want their rosy viewpoints challenged and they certainly don't like being proven wrong. This often leads to insults and claims that those disagreeing with them have hidden agendas, because they obviously can't be right if it disagrees with what they think. Silly I know, but that is the way some people appear to be.

Personally, if people just accepted other people's viewpoints, that is, they do not have to agree with them, but just accept that is the way it is and accept that people will think differently, whether they like it or not, then debates and such might not turn into insults competitions and the discussions ruined. But sadly, some people take things far too seriously or use the threads to insult and attack the same targets. When that happens, laughing at such feeble attempts to provoke is often the best medicine. The are far more important things in life than what certain people might think about two hundred year old events or characters. We can't change the past, we can only examine it. But we can change the future.

It may have to do with how many posts are made on TMP each day for the different periods. I have noticed that the Napoleonic Discussion list has quite a few more posts a day on average than the other periods. More posts = greater chance for a heated discussion.

Right now fifteen [15] threads+ have had posts today on the Napoleonic Discussion List and no heated debates to be seen.
Other Discussion lists:

Ancient 9 threads posted on today
18th Century 8
ACW 9
Early 20th C 3
WWII 11
Modern 6

We can't change the past, we can only examine it. But we can change the future.

Please don't change the future Gazzola; I like it the way it is going to be.