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"10mm ironclads" Topic

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American Civil War
19th Century

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doc mcb05 Mar 2016 9:55 a.m. PST

What lines are currently available and from whom?

MajorB05 Mar 2016 10:05 a.m. PST

Are you sure you mean 10mm? That is a strange scale for naval models.

Lt Col Pedant05 Mar 2016 10:29 a.m. PST

"10mm"' is a measurement, not a scale. I think the OP is referring to 1/600 scale vessels. There are several current ranges available from: Bay Area Yards; Thoroughbred; Peter Pig.

MajorB05 Mar 2016 10:33 a.m. PST

"10mm"' is a measurement, not a scale. I think the Op is referring to 1/600 scale vessels.

Indeed. "10mm" is a measurement. And if so, then that would be roughly equivalent to 1/144 scale. The 1/600 models you suggest would therefore be too small.

Airborne Engineer05 Mar 2016 11:04 a.m. PST

10mm is generally considered to be between 1/160 to 1/200 except for Kallista which are really about 12-13mm

link I don't see these listed as available on Pendraken's website so I don't know if it is current.

Hafen von Schlockenberg05 Mar 2016 11:14 a.m. PST

There are,or were,10mm scale ironclads made in the US,but I can't think of the name,or who carried them. The ones I've seen were resin. I believe they were made by Joe Burgess here in Virginia. I'm sure someone can nail it down.

And I'll continue to call it "scale".

doc mcb05 Mar 2016 11:15 a.m. PST

No, I really meant 10mm. I have a large collection of 1:600, mostly from Thoroughbred and peter Pig and Bay Area Yards.

But I have an ARKANSAS and CAIRO, 10mm, bought from Thoroughbred a good any years ago. No longer listed on their site, though some 10mm naval crews and guns are listed there.

So does anyone currently produce 10mm ironclads?

And excuse me, but 15mm and 28mm are scales as well as measurements. A little less pedantry please.

doc mcb05 Mar 2016 11:19 a.m. PST

I see that the War Store has a few Pendraken models.

MajorB05 Mar 2016 11:20 a.m. PST

but 15mm and 28mm are scales

If they are scales, why do different manufacturers figures not always match in size?

Hafen von Schlockenberg05 Mar 2016 11:27 a.m. PST

Maybe for the same reason plastic kits don't.

MajorB05 Mar 2016 12:00 p.m. PST

Maybe for the same reason plastic kits don't.

That's usually because people confuse 1/76 and 1/72.

Master Caster Sponsoring Member of TMP05 Mar 2016 12:15 p.m. PST

doc mcb,
I cannot answer your main question for I don't know who currently produces ACW 10mm naval. The 10mm resin vessels I produced under license several years ago were owned – and still are I believe – by Jim Brokaw in NC. I think Joe Burges did produce some of them before me, and then Joel Gregory of Old Glory Miniature Ships produced them for a short time after me. Email me thru my web site and I will try to find contact info for you on Jim, but I haven't seen him at any of the conventions or corresponded with him in quite some time.
His ACW ships and crew were designed to go with his 10mm sized figures. The product range was quite extensive and included land force figures which I did not produce. Jim also had a nice range of buildings which I started to get into producing when both Jim and I agreed to end the licensing agreement. The 10mm (N scale) crew and civilian figures you see on my website were designed for true N scale, or 1/160. Only a few of Jim's vessels were anywhere near N scale – most were not – and they were inconsistently scaled to each other meaning the line was not any constant scale relationship-wise throughout. I hope that makes sense. Visually, however, all of Jim's stuff looked good on the game table to be fair.
Someday I hope to put out some 10mm/N scale vessels to go with my own figures, but they will be true N scale and constant scale throughout the range
Toby Barrett
Thoroughbred Figures

Lt Col Pedant05 Mar 2016 12:19 p.m. PST

I'm afraid ''15mm'' and '''28mm'' are measurements and not scales; and 1/100 and 1/64 are scales and not measurements. If some want to be slip-shod in their terminology, that's up to themselves. And yes, I have been known to out-pedant the pedants.

Hafen von Schlockenberg05 Mar 2016 12:31 p.m. PST

Thanks for clearing that up,Toby,I was racking my brains to no avail. I am still kicking myself for not buying Jim's buildings back when he shared a table with Pat Condray some Historicons ago. They were the only ones I've seen small enough to go with my small units. Actually picked them up,put them back down,said I'd come back,forgot. Big mistake.

Is he not active at all? I've tried Googling several times,but no luck.

Hafen von Schlockenberg05 Mar 2016 12:40 p.m. PST

(Sigh)MajorB,I know the difference between 1/72 and 1/76.

Captain Haddock,quite right,you should definitely start a poll to get the "Scale" board changed to "Measurement".

MajorB05 Mar 2016 1:38 p.m. PST

(Sigh)MajorB,I know the difference between 1/72 and 1/76.

Of course you do. Don't we all. However, when I said "people" I was not referring to us wargamers, I was referring to plastic kit manufacturers who do seem to get confused between the two scales …

Personal logo War Artisan Sponsoring Member of TMP05 Mar 2016 2:38 p.m. PST

So why aren't the pedants also going on about "N" being a "gauge", and not a "scale"?

I'm all for precise use of language, but in this case I think common usage trumps original intent.

doc mcb05 Mar 2016 5:05 p.m. PST

Thanks, Toby. I do have some homemade wooden ships your 10mm guns and crews will look great on.

doc mcb05 Mar 2016 5:08 p.m. PST

Isn't the understood scale for miniatures that an average man in shoes and wearing a hat is roughly 6 feet, so, e.g., 28mm scale is 28MM = 6 feet?

A scale is a relationship between two measurements, right?

MajorB06 Mar 2016 5:36 a.m. PST

Isn't the understood scale for miniatures that an average man in shoes and wearing a hat is roughly 6 feet, so, e.g., 28mm scale is 28MM = 6 feet?

I think most scupltors would say it is foot to the eye not to the top of the head. That's because you often can't see where the top of the head is when a figure is wearing head gear. So, no, it ain't 6ft.

doc mcb06 Mar 2016 9:22 a.m. PST

Okay, that then if you say so. But given the size of an average man you get the average door, and from that the size of the whole building. That is scaling.

Thanks, everyone, I'll be sure to come back here with my next question.

steamingdave4706 Mar 2016 3:59 p.m. PST

@ war artisan:- N is a gauge. the track is 9mm gauge representing British standard gauge of 4 feet 8.5inches. Scale is 2.0625mm = 1foot. Why we railway modellers mix metric and imperial in this way is beyond me, but it works out to about 1/148 for British modellers. Although "10 mm" figures should really be about 1/168 scale, I think a lot of the commercially available "10mm" figures are scaled to this N gauge standard.

EJNashIII06 Mar 2016 10:13 p.m. PST

I have one of the most extensive collections of Jim Brokaw's ships and would run games with him. He sold them thru Thoroughbred Figures, then sold them thru Old Glory for a number of years. Currently, he has them out of production, but if you can get a hold of him, that could change. They are 10mm, but most are resized a bit to make them about 3/4 true length. Anything I can answer about them? Here are some photos Scott Mingus took of some of my ships in 2008. I really need to get them out of storage and run some games this year.



EJNashIII06 Mar 2016 10:22 p.m. PST

I found their main advantage was that they gave an impressive visual for a convention game. Also, the models are also far more complex and entertaining to build and paint than some of the smaller scales. Finally, you could do combined action scenarios with 10mm land forces. I did a Battery Wagner scenario a few times with 2 full brigades of infantry at 1 man equals 4. The one from the pictures above was Trent's reach with shore batteries and a few hundred ground troops for eye candy.
Steamingdave, 10mm really comes in about 3 size classes depending on manufacturers. All but the smallest figures are larger and meatier than true N-scale figures. However, buildings, trains, etc look fine with all the 10mm figure ranges. You just are limited on which figure ranges you should mix on the same table or the same base. In the case of these ships, Perrin and Jim's own "old north state" lines are the best.

EJNashIII06 Mar 2016 10:41 p.m. PST

Hey, if you want to contact Jim, his info is in our membership directory. TMP link

Mac163807 Mar 2016 4:30 a.m. PST

I have Pook Turtle and a Tin Clad from Penddraken in 10mm.

Light Horseman07 Mar 2016 6:25 a.m. PST

There is a toy manufacturer that makes very nice Monitor and Merrimac. They paint up sweet. As toys, they are not made to an identifiable scale. You should be able to find them on the internet.

As for scale, you might want to think about what you plan to use the ships for. If you intend to use them in naval battles, then you will want an exact scale true to the crew figures. But if you intend to use them simply as complements to land battles, then you should consider going to smaller ships. Depending on your ground scale and man to figure ratio for the land battle, a ship in 10mm or 15mm scale could take up as much space as an entire regiment, brigade, or more!

Leon Pendraken Sponsoring Member of TMP07 Mar 2016 4:30 p.m. PST

Our 10mm (1:150th) ACW Ironclad's are currently out of production unfortunately, while we continue moving our resin production out-of-house. The new guys are still re-working a lot of the regular scenery models and once those are complete we'll move onto the other items like the ships.

Cold Steel06 Apr 2016 2:03 p.m. PST

dac mcb, I lost your e-mail address in the move, but found the ships. Please e-mail if still interested.

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