"Military begins recruiting women for combat jobs" Topic

"The military services are already beginning to recruit women for combat jobs, including as Navy SEALs, and could see them serving in previously male-only Army and Marine Corps infantry units by this fall, according to new plans endorsed by Defense Secretary Ash Carter and obtained by The Associated Press.

Some of the services predict that only small numbers of women will volunteer or get through training courses, details of the plans show. The Marine Corps estimates 200 women a year will move into ground combat jobs. And U.S. Special Operations Command said it anticipates a "small number" of volunteers for its commando jobs.

The Navy said it is already collecting submission packages from prospective SEAL candidates and could see women in entry-level enlisted and officer training in September and October. The Navy started collecting the packages last month…"
Full article here
link

Amicalement
Armand

Good for them.

When does the "selective service" registration begin?

Oh great! Next thing you know they'll be voting and driving cars.

"When does the "selective service" registration begin?"

surely you're not suggesting they actually want the responsibility that comes with those rights?

Women "know your limits"

So stupid and won't end well.

Civilization is doomed when it sends its daughters to war.

Well, I better get used to G.I. Jane then.

But if Caitlyn Jenner becomes a Navy SEAL does it count?

The only reason the draft for men only was ruled Constitutional was due to the fact that women couldn't serve in combat.

If the time comes draft them and put them into infantry, etc. in proportion to the population.

And God have mercy on their souls and those of the men who die because of it.

"It's the end of the world as we know it….and I feel fine."

That is easy for you to say you won't have to deal with the problems it will cause.

jdginz

I love how old fashioned some people on TMP can be.

Doesn't require lots of upper body strength??? Who are you and how long were you in the infantry, because I did 20 years and was in Panama, Kuwait, Somalia and Iraq. I was in Iraq in 2005 my plates in my vest weighed 11lbs each the vest itself weighed at least 10lbs not counting my 10 rifle magazines, 3 pistol magazines, 2 Frags, 2 smoke grenades, my helmet, camel pack, food, my KABAR, my radio, my rifle, my pistol. My vest with everything fixed to it weighed 65lbs. Try pulling yourself over a wall or through a window not counting the half dozen times I carried one of my Marines screaming to the corpsmans. Women DO NOT BELONG IN COMBAT! And anyone who says they do has never been there. If you think it's fair that women are allowed in combat for the love of God be fair yourself and get your elected leaders to MAKE everything gender neutral, bathrooms, locker rooms, AND especially MMA, the NFL and anything that's physically violent sport, if modern women can do it then fine but stop turning the military and especially the Marine Corps into some freak social experiment.

If a person can do the job, let 'em do it, gender aside.

Oz, while I agree with the arguments that you are putting forward, especially the invalidity of the "appeal to authority" gambit, your presentation of them is dreadful, especially the post with the link.

If a woman can meet the standards of a particular service, with no allowances made for being female, she should be allowed to serve.

The example of the female Peshmerga is an interesting one, although they are only engaged in a particular form of combat; not the high tempo style of combat that one might expect in a war between two major(ish) powers.

I do agree about the blowhards who tout their ever so distinguished service (usually in peace time) as a clinching factor in any military discussion, especially those that are well outside their field of expertise or even knowledge. This is particularly the case when they come across as being as dense the walls of my house (it is made of granite).

By the way, if anyone feels that I need to show my medals in order to validate my involvement in this discussion, I will happily provide a photograph, although not one like Oz's.

@Abberant

"If a woman can meet the standards of a particular service, with no allowances made for being female, she should be allowed to serve."

In the past I have commented in previous threads I will do it again…

Fair enough but as long as the standards are not watered down, changed or "updated" to make them succeed. I accept that this is the wave of the future and my manhood is not on the line. Please note our enemies don't play with the same rule book and values we do, we will compete with their men.

I have brought up the issue of pregnancy, pregnant women have to be evacuated. Its not always possible under battlefield conditions. Women may ending up giving birth in captivity as well and possibly to the enemy. Its not always as simple as snapping our fingers to make a helicopter or humvee appear and take the woman away. If this is an acceptable outcome then so be it but let no one caterwaul when it happens and it will eventually.

I have also brought up the issue of fraternization and sexual politics. Would it be acceptable for your son or daughter to be forced to perform all the dangerous tasks so some sergeant / officer can protect his love interest or supply of sex? No amount of hand waving it away, education or punishment can prevent this from happening and eventually it will happen to someone. For those that deem this an acceptable possibility so be it but I can only hope it is your loved one that has to pay the price to push your agenda through.

You don't have to show me your medals you are not making any false claims to bolster your position Aberrant nor are you making wholesale attacks on other veterans. I expect a reasonable debate from you.

I've lost count of how many Army Drill Sgts have been brought on sexual assault charges because of integrated training so we can look forward to more of that, all of this goes to appeasement of women who will never serve nor their daughters.

I've lost count of how many Army Drill Sgts have been brought on sexual assault charges

Doesn't speak very well of our Army Drill Sgts.

Irish Marine, Dragon Gunner et al:

you chaps know what an 'Internet Troll' is?

May I suggest you heed the words of the Great Taylor Swift (who, I'm sure, wore a Green Beret in one of her clips…hmmm suggestive)

YouTube link

Dragon Gunner,

We seem to agree that the standards should be the same as for the men and that these should not have been lowered in order to accommodate women.

With regard to pregnancy, I feel that this is a bit of a red herring; if our armed forces cannot get a pregnant woman out of their service location within 9 months, then there are much larger problems that we need to address.

Sexual harassment? Well, that is about training, values and respect; it is not the fault of the women.

For those of you who worry about the effectiveness of women in combat and their effect on the unit, I would just offer you one woman with whom I have a passing acquaintance; the Wikipedia page does not really tell half of the story:

link

Her citation reads:
"Nesbitt's actions throughout a series of offensive operations were exemplary; under fire and under pressure her commitment and courage were inspirational and made the difference between life and death. She performed in the highest traditions of her Service."

She actually covered about 170m across open ground under heavy close range fire to reach the wounded man and treated him while continuing to expose herself to enemy fire.

Well, since they've made this decision, despite unit cohesion and effectiveness concerns, then I agree, if they an qualify then they can serve, but no dumbed down measures just to make it easy on them.

And yes, now, all women should have to register for selective service too, just like the men.

There are some women and men who are against that, but if you want equal rights, you also have to take ownership of equal responsibilities too.

Well as a non-veteran who reads history, I'll once again note that the army with the largest percentage of women in combat roles in recent history – the JNA as successors to the Partisans – demobbed all women at the end of WWII.

No one that I have seen notes injury data, but casualty ratios more than double those of men and the fact that at any given time 25 percent were pregnant and unavailable for duty were two of the primary reasons.

Additionally there is no readily available data on the impact that higher casualty ratio had on unit effectiveness, morale, or whether having women in units led to higher casualties with the men in the units (the Israeli experience).

It is also worth noting that the cost of the military is being questioned and that the current administration is cutting the size of the military. Having women in the military who get pregnant (15-25 percent of women on Navy ships) and therefore must be replaced requires maintaining a larger military to maintain the same effectiveness.

There is also a significant body of evidence that women due to anatomical differences suffer significantly higher injury rates in non-combat situations. many of those injures are disabling. This will require additional medical facilities and in the case of disabling injuries replacement costs and additional long term pension and health costs.

In terms of the military budget women are already less cost effective than men, this will compound the problem.

In so far as that comment that no feminist group is calling for lowering standards – what be done is that the claim will be made that women are under represented as officers in combat units. As with police, firefighters, and the military in general, the fix will be to relax standards. Regardless of the impact on effectiveness. The people advocating for and making the decisions will not be facing the direct consequences of those decisions.

On that final note it is interesting that many call General Haig 'Butcher Haig' for the repeated attempts to break though the German trench lines in WWI with frontal attacks. Condemning him for sitting back in his comfortable HQ while the attacks continued to fail. The difference between Haig and the current leadership is that Haig didn't know that the attacks would fail (tactics were modified each time), while the current brass is well aware of the damage the new policy will do and i making a decision purely for political reasons.

P.S. If the peshmerga has a higher percentage than 12.5 then they beat the Partisans.

P.P.S. To avoid the fraternization problem the peshmerga have segregated units.

P.P.P.S. To my knowledge the peshmerga employ their female units in defensive operations.

"With regard to pregnancy, I feel that this is a bit of a red herring; if our armed forces cannot get a pregnant woman out of their service location within 9 months, then there are much larger problems that we need to address."- Aberrant

She will stop being effective infantry almost instantly and the rigors of the field might cause a pregnant woman to have a miscarriage. Its not a matter of nine months they have to be evacuated the instant they turn up pregnant.

"Sexual harassment? Well, that is about training, values and respect; it is not the fault of the women."- Abberant

Sexual harassment was not the topic please reread my post. Its about human nature, desire, and fraternization, no amount of training will EVER make that go away! I never said anything was entirely women's fault what logic did you use to arrive at that conclusion?

It's hard to know whether to be amused at this thread (inventive troll & all) or be dismayed.

I'll opt for amused as I think blatant discrimination, despite some hold-outs, is waning. At least I hope so.

Just between you & me, KB, such threads as this add nothing to TMP.

They encourage trolls & provide opportunities for TMPers to write pretty offensive stuff.

I'm here for the toy soldiers. People's cave-man attitudes are not conducive to MY harmless hobby.

Ssssh! Let's keep this discussion private.

Enjoy yourself, KB. It sounds so much more productive than anonymously bitching, ranting or sniping on a wargames' forum about people you've never or will ever meet.

Again, let's not get this outbreak of wargaming-talk get out.

As with slavery and women's sufferage, ch-ch-ch-changes (turn and face the strain, RIP David) are hard to come by and the "Old Guard" is bound to resist anything that upsets the status quo. Once the change becomes reality over their vehement objections, things will eventually settle down as the change gains acceptance over time and people adapt to the "new normal." Social change is always a struggle and has never been easy.

From a wargaming standpoint at least, I look forward to seeing more modern female miniatures in the future as sculptors address this new reality.

Just between you & me, KB, such threads as this add nothing to TMP.

They encourage trolls & provide opportunities for TMPers to write pretty offensive stuff.

I'm here for the toy soldiers. People's cave-man attitudes are not conducive to MY harmless hobby

C'mon ochoin, you KNOW what goes on on this particular board. This is not the board to visit if you want to see strictly wargaming related stuff. You'll find little in the way of miniature talk here. In fact a totally separate board was created to satisfy the purists who wanted to talk only about Ultra Modern gaming.

This is like the military in one respect: you were not drafted, you came here voluntarily. What are you griping about?

@Ochoin

Please ignore this topic and concentrate on gaming if that is what you came here for. You are not taking any moral high ground by hanging around and commenting on this topic. Please don't hide behind your excuse its all about the gaming while you snipe with comments like "blatant discrimination" and "cave man attitudes".

Man Up if you have something to say and stop trying to be cute.

Dragon Gunner,

Apologies, the comment about sexual harassment was intended for Irish Marine, not you. He seemed to be implying that the sexual harassment of female recruits by drill instructors was in some way the fault of integrated training rather than a failing on the part of the instructors.

Your comment on fraternisation and favouritism is an interesting one and worthy of consideration; the units in which I served until my retirement did not recruit women but, on active service, most of them often had female medics attached. I am not aware of any issues such as you describe with them, although there have been issues in other branches of the armed forces; it is something that will need be addressed if women are serving in combat roles.

All,

Regarding the late and unlamented Oz, you do all realise that he was only claiming to have medals in an attempt to ridicule you all, don't you? To accuse him of "stolen valor" on that basis is slightly absurd. He was a troll attempting to wind you up; sadly he was not entirely unsuccessful.

To add the perspective of a 100% civilian; I think in terms of "former service person" and "veteran". The second meaning, bluntly, combat veteran (or of traumatic/hairy postings such as Bosnia).

I give both the respect they deserve but non veteran former service personnel who bang on about it can, frankly, get very boring very fast and risk losing that initial goodwill.

As to this whole theft of valour episode, why didn't you just exhibit some of that famous grace under pressure and ignore the clown? Or take the mickey back? As your buttons are so easily pressed he'll be back for more.

"As to this whole theft of valour episode, why didn't you just exhibit some of that famous grace under pressure and ignore the clown? Or take the mickey back? As your buttons are so easily pressed he'll be back for more"- Goonfighter

He tried to pass himself off as a veteran to counter those with real life experience in the field. His position could not stand on its own merit so he had to lie. I am tired of 100% civilians who IMAGINE what the military is like then feel entitled to an opinion about the military. Its outside their area of personal knowledge. (Example some civilians I know think infantry is just "camping with guns".)

The term veteran has been used to describe peace time veterans and veterans of wars. The way I see former veterans differentiate the two is to say " I am an Iraq vet" or "I am an Afghan vet".

Yes I expect the child will be back but for the moment there is peace.

@Aberrant

Apology accepted a misunderstanding.

Great. I warn people (rather unnecessarily, I'd a thought) that the guy was a troll.

And get attacked for it. Not to mention for daring to say that a wargames' forum should be about wargames.

@ Ochoin

Then why comment about "blatant discrimination" and "cave man attitudes"?

Legion 4, I thought that being a veteran made you tough. You can't even handle an internet troll.
I was actually cheering for him. As opposed to Lagartija Mike, he was amusing.
Apparently you have forgotten part of the oath you took, the part about protecting the Constitution. You know. The freedom of speech part, in the amendment that comes before the gun one. "Make him stop! Remove all trace of everything he wrote! He offended me!"

I'm here for the toy soldiers. People's cave-man attitudes are not conducive to MY harmless hobby

Ochoin…maybe your getting grief is due to

my father and my uncle both volunteered during WW2, neither saw combat and neither accepted the term "veteran", both saying "other chaps did the fighting" or "it was in my contract, I couldn't enter a country until the Germans had left". Neither put in for their service medals until their old age and then usually "forgot" to wear them.

It was only after his death that we learnt that my Uncle -then a steward on a passenger ship, had also been an AA gunner during the evacuation in 1940 and had been stuka'd off the coast of France. He never spoke about it.

That's where I'm coming from in this "veteran" matter.

I'm afraid that I am entitled to an opinion on the military, not one informed by personal experience of course but an opinion nonetheless and right now I really think you need to change your name to Mainwaring.

"I was actually cheering for him. As opposed to Lagartija Mike, he was amusing."- Winston Smith

He was obnoxious but I am glad you were amused it speaks volumes about your character. As far as the second amendment I doubt the founding fathers ever intended it to be a platform to hide behind and antagonize others. I accept that is what it has become…

"I'm afraid that I am entitled to an opinion on the military, not one informed by personal experience of course but an opinion nonetheless and right now I really think you need to change your name to Mainwaring"- Goonfighter

Then have your opinion I am glad you acknowledge it is one not based on personal experience it shows SOME maturity on your part. At least you didn't lie like OZ.

In regards to Mainwaring your insult is noted. Another 100% civilian that can't cope when confronted with a veteran and offers up a childish insult instead of a thought out rebuttal. You can move along Goonfighter mission accomplished…

Thank you for validating my opinion. I wasn't at all sure of it but now I'm convinced.

Yes on the whole, cancel Mainwaring, go for Blimp. You'll get a colonelcy out that.

Topics like this are bound to degenerate and get personal. As Harry Truman once said, "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen."

@ Goonfighter

Still can't offer up a decent rebuttal so you double down on insults. You can do better than that…

I anticipate another reference to a cartoon character / TV character or maybe you will take it to the level of OZ and link to some disease infected genitals. Goonfighter you are on a roll…

The main thing we can all take away from this thread is that only those who claim to be a veteran, and not necessarily a combat veteran, are entitled to have opinions. Got it.
Now, if someone can point out to me any time in human history when "veterans" had a monolithic opinion about ANYTHING, I would appreciate it.

As for me, I am a veteran of a memorable night of alcoholic excess when I learned that my number in the draft lottery was 350. The only thing that qualifies me for is the certain knowledge that there are no hangover cures.
I guess that makes me a draft dodger in the eyes of some. Hey. I registered! Not my fault they didn't want me!

"The main thing we can all take away from this thread is that only those who claim to be a veteran, and not necessarily a combat veteran, are entitled to have opinions. Got it."- Winston Smith

No you don't got it not even CLOSE! Its about having experience in a field you have worked in versus someone that has never worked in that field yet thinks they know something about it.

But John, you should know by now that on TMP your opinion is at least 10x more valid if you're a vet than if you're not!

I've already stated my position on what constitutes a "veteran". Yours is different, there you go. As to women in combat, there are men who are totally unsuited for combat so I honestly suspect the converse is true and that there are women absolutely suited for the role. Just make sure it's the right person.

Move along? But I'm enjoying it. Quite simply I'm taking the mickey, you are treating it as some kind of positional debate. Asymmetrical verbal warfare.

A blimp was also full of hot air – or was it gas? So I think I'll stick with that.

Fair enough Goonfighter!

You wait, Kyote, this is the warm up act, Beyoncé is on next.

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