"Feedback Please: Shooting chart for noobs" Topic

I am planning a Team Yankee (TY) game for March 5 and will probably have some noobs in the group. To speed up play I made a "shooting chart" which puts every stat/die roll in one place:

It shows your ROF and To Hit number. On the sheet will be the firing modifiers (Range over 16", concealed etc.) though I have not yet worked out the best way to note exceptions (M1 laser range finder means no +1 for over 16", for example).

It will be a small game with players commanding one or two platoons just to keep it easy.

I'll use a highlighter for their troops, or maybe just make a custom chart for each player by hiding rows.

It shows the Saves needed (K=no armor save possible, -- means armor save automatic).

A (7) means that at long range, on a 6, you tie the penetration.

What do you think?

You actually expect an M109 to fire directly at at T-72?

Isn't that what the data cards are supposed to do?

@Rich: Ha, yes, good point. Not really! I was just doing all the US weapons against the majority of targets.

@Saber6: My hope is this will save a lot of "okay, my pen is 19. What's your armor? 16? Okay, you need a 3 or better. What are the die roll mods again?" So we can play fast. If the gang likes the game I assume it will get to be second nature and we'll just use the unit cards.

It has its advantages and disadvantages.

ADVANTAGES:
Much better than the TY unit cards. I remember trying to play AT-43 with unit cards. It's a confusing mess on the table top. We've tested it with our own rules and it's just not as convenient as having a single data sheet for each army/force/faction. That being said, for new players I highlight the troop stats on the data sheet that they have in their force. Makes it easier for them to find their stuff making it the best of both worlds. Veterans can usually remember 90% of the data points over time.

DISADVANTAGE:
By pre-calculating troop vs troop data you've increased the number of data points a player needs to remember without referencing the play sheet.

Here's an example of what I mean. Let's say a game has 5 weapons and 5 vehicle types as potential targets. That's 10 potential data points one must remember to play: 5x anti-vehicle values and 5x target type values. But if you pre-calculate those relationships you explode the number of data points to 25!

More importantly, NOT pre-calculating a matrix can make it easier to remember the individual data points because they relate to one another. Small arms might have an AT value of 2, an HMG a value of 4 which makes sense because it hits harder than a smaller round, and a 20mm gun might be a 6 or 7. The real world relationships between weapons serve as a mnemonic for the game values. Give someone who knows there military history your game values for some weapons and most would probably be able to guess the values for other weapons relative to those given.

The other problem is that the pre-calculated matrix doesn't scale well. Every new weapon or vehicle that gets released adds exponentially to the matrix size. Just imagine trying to put all of the FoW stuff in a matrix. It gets crazy really fast!

I have a friend who built a Command Decision mod using a pre-calculated matrix. We've played the game for 10 years and HE still can't remember all of the weapon vs target data points. Meanwhile, even though I don't play FoW or 40K all that much I can still remember a lot of stats from those games.

MY RECOMMENDATION
Build a data sheet in the style of WWII FoW. It's more convenient than the individual cards, it scales over time, and it's easier to remember the smaller number of data points. Currently you could probably get ALL of the TY data on one sheet. If they add new units you could always divide into army-specific sheets as needed.

I don't understand your point about 10 versus 25.

This sheet would be specific to (a) the forces you command and (b) the enemy you face. So I build these for each scenario. I'd probably only use this for new players. Experienced players can do fine with charts/cards (I prefer the cards, but only when a player only has one or two kinds of units).

I rather like these. Looks clear and concise.

Maybe a touch of colour to break up the table a bit? It can get hard to find the right row at a glance.

For simplicity let's say to get the chance to penetrate armor you subtract the armor from the AT value. You must roll the resulting value or less on a d10 to penetrate.

37mm gun AT 8
75mm gun AT 10
90mm gun AT 14

light AFV armor 2
medium AFV armor 5
heavy AFV armor 9

So a 75mm penetrates medium armor on a 5 or less on a d10 (10-5=5).

That's a total of 6 data points to remember and each relates to the other (eg a 75mm gun is more powerful than a 37mm gun so it makes sense that its AT value is higher than the 37 but lower than the 90).

If you create a pre-calculated matrix with those same 6 items you get 9 data points to remember, 3 per weapon because there are 3 armor types (3x3=9). Whatever the details, you take the number of potential attacking thingies and multiply by the number of target thingies to get the number of cells on the table.

For example: 75mm vs light (8), vs medium (5), vs heavy (1)

It's just easier to remember one value per weapon or armor type than an entire table of values.

If the math gets more challenging and you're adding or subtracting or comparing large, multi-digit numbers over bigger ranges then I can see using a table. But for something like this it's just adding a lot of stuff that you need to look up rather than simply remembering.

There's also something more entertaining about using stats/values over a table. With a stat you get stuff like, "Holy doodie! Your BFG has an AT of 15?!?!?" A player can relate to that at a visceral level. Studiously cross referencing weapon A against target B to derive a value from a table filled with dozens of cells as if you're reading a train schedule is anti-climactic by comparison.

@ Visceral: In Flames of War you compare Pen to Armor+D6. Defender's goal is to tie the Pen or better. So my chart just does that calc for you for the two units involved. You don't have to remember, just read the chart.

@Weasel: Yeah, I'll use a highlighter so your page just has your weapons highlighted (I coud print custom charts for each player but that's a PITA unless you can guarantee who will show up).

EC,
You could just alternate rows with a different color. Makes it easy for the eye to follow the stat line for results.

I've found, for charts, that just grouping them in sets of 4 or 5 (sometimes 3) rows, and then leaving a blank row between the various sets helps to quickly reference things, without having to resort to wasting color toner, or ink.

Revised and simplified chart. With the new layout I could add a fourth column but then you start to defeat the purpose. I may not do the shading and instead use a highlighter and do the rows for each player.

So now here's how it works.

My M1 is shooting at a T72. I see I have ROF 2 so roll 2 dice. My chart here says I need a 3+ to hit. I get one hit. I'm hitting the front armor. I see he needs a 4 to save (to tie at worst). He rolls a 3 so he misses, yeidling a firepower check which the chart shows is 2+. I roll a 1 and only bail the sucker.

great card Extra this one is a winner

Anyone who wants to save 10 minutes and get a copy drop me a line (I now have the corresponding Soviet table as well).

mark@scalecreep.com

. You don't have to remember, just read the chart.

That's my point. With so many table cells (data points) remembering values isn't an option so players MUIST lookup data for every shot/action.

With the stat line approach from WHFB, 40K, FoW, Warmachine, etc. players can remember their stats which speeds up play.

My guess is they'll have this chart memorized by the second turn of shooting….

I think it is a good idea. Some will find the amount of data on the chart dizzying. Can't do anything about that. I think most will appreciate the charts by half time.

Well here's a thing. Most games are over by turn 4, so any headaches will be of very limited duration….