"Russian Napoleonic Muskets" Topic

So what were they using at Borodino?

The M1808 "Tula" was a Charleville clone (per Wikipedia), but that is a far as that resource takes me. And they would not have been able to re-equip between 1808 and 1812.

Any information on British Sales/Transfers?

No the Russian army was short on small armed and used anything they could find. British muskets, captured muskets and old items some in access of a hundred years. I do not have my reference works in front of me but if memory serves the Russians were having 20 or so official standardize calibers. Logistical nightmare for sure and it would impact the effectiveness of musket fire.

The Russian army at Borodino used a number of different types of muskets, including Russian, English and captured French. As the French discovered, variety had little impact on effectiveness.

I read often Brownbesses were given out as rewards to individual soldiers. Even rifles were of many different manufactured.

Maybe that helps

The Armaments of Russian Infantry in 1812 June
By:Robert Woo
Date: 2/24/2013, 3:25 am
The following tables are translated from appendix of Ulʹyanov '1812, Russian Infantry in Combat' (Ульянов И. Э. 1812. Русская пехота в бою.)
First Infantry Corps
5th Infantry Division
1st Brigade:
Sevsk Infantry Regiment; Севский пехотный полк; No details.
Kaluga Infantry Regiment; Калужский пехотный полк; M1808
2nd Brigade:
Perm Infantry Regiment; Пермский пехотный полк; M1808
Mogilev Infantry Regiment; Могилевский пехотный полк; M1808
3rd Brigade:
23rd Jaeger Regiment; M1808
24th Jaeger Regiment; M1808
14th Infantry Division:
1st Brigade:
Tula Infantry Regiment; Тульский пехотный полк; British Brown Bess
Navagin Infantry Regiment;Навагинский пехотный полк; British Brown Bess
2nd Brigade:
Estland Infantry Regiment; Эстляндский пехотный полк; British Brown Bess;
Tenge Infantry Regiment; Навагинский пехотный полк; British Brown Bess
3rd Brigade:
25th Jaeger Regiment; British Brown Bess
26th Jaeger Regiment; British Brown Bess
Second Infantry Corps:
4th Infantry Division:
1st Brigade:
Kremenchug Infantry Regiment; Кременчугский пехотный полк; M1808
Minsk Infantry Regiment; Минский пехотный полк; M1808
2nd Brigade:
Tobolsk Infantry Regiment; Тобольский пехотный полк; M1808
Volhynia Infantry Regiment; Волынский пехотный полк; British Brown Bess
3rd Brigade:
4th Jaeger Regiment; M1808
34th Jaeger Regiment; M1808
17th Infantry Division:
1st Brigade:
Riazan Infantry Regiment; Рязанский пехотный полк; M1808
Beloozero Infantry Regiment; Белозерский пехотный полк; M1808
2nd Brigade:
Willmanstrand Infantry Regiment; Вильманстрандский пехотный полк; M1808
Brest Infantry Regiment; Брестский пехотный полк; M1808
3rd Brigade:
30th Jaeger Regiment; M1808
48th Jaeger Regiment; M1808
Third Infantry Corps:
1st Grenadier Division:
1st Brigade:
Life Grenadier Regiment; Лейб-гренадерский полк; M1808
Count Arakcheev Grenadier Regiment; гренадерский Графа Аракчеева полк; M1808
2nd Brigade:
Pavlovsky Grenadier Regiment; Павловский гренадерский полк; M1808
Ekaterinoslav Grenadier Regiment; Екатеринославский гренадерский полк; M1808
3rd Brigade:
St Petersburg Grenadier Regiment; С.-Петербургский гренадерский полк; M1808
Tauride Grenadier Regiment; Таврический гренадерский полк; M1808
3rd Infantry Division:
1st Brigade:
Reval Infantry Regiment; Ревельский пехотный полк; British Brown Bess
Murom Infantry Regiment; Муромский пехотный полк; British Brown Bess
2nd Brigade:
Kopore Infantry Regiment; Копорский пехотный полк; British Brown Bess
Chernigov Infantry Regiment; Черниговский пехотный полк; British Brown Bess
3rd Brigade:
20th Jaeger Regiment; British Brown Bess
21st Jaeger Regiment; British Brown Bess
Fourth Infantry Corps:
11th Infantry Division:
1st Brigade:
Kexholm Infantry Regiment; Кексгольмский пехотный полк; M1808
Pernau Infantry Regiment; Перновский пехотный полк; M1808
2nd Brigade:
Polotsk Infantry Regiment; Полоцкий пехотный полк; M1808
Elets Infantry Regiment; Елецкий пехотный полк; M1808
3rd Brigade:
1st Jaeger Regiment; M1808
33rd Jaeger Regiment; M1808
23rd Infantry Division:
1st Brigade:
Rylsk Infantry Regiment; Рыльский пехотный полк; M1808
Ekaterinburg Infantry Regiment; Екатеринбургский пехотный полк; M1808
2nd Brigade:
Selenginsk Infantry Regiment; Селенгинский пехотный полк; M1808
18th Jaeger Regiment; M1808
2nd Combined Grenadier Brigade:
5 Combined Grenadier battalions
Fifth Reserve Corps:
Guards Infantry Division:
1st Brigade:
Preobrazhensky Guards Regiment; Лейб-гвардии Преображенский полк; M1808
Semenovsky Guards Regiment; Лейб-гвардии Семеновский полк; M1808
2nd Brigade: Colonel M. E. Khrapovitsky
Izmailovsky Guards Regiment; Лейб-гвардии Измайловский полк; M1808
Lithuania (Litovsky) Guards Regiment; Лейб-гвардии Литовский полк; M1808
3rd Brigade: Colonel K. I. Bistrom
Finland Guards Regiment; Лейб-гвардии Финляндский полк; No details.
Guards Jaeger Regiment; Лейб-гвардии Егерский полк; M1808
Guards Marines Battalion; Гвардейский экипаж; No details
Sixth Infantry Corps:
7th Infantry Division:
1st Brigade:
Pskov Infantry Regiment; Псковский пехотный полк; M1808
Moscow Infantry Regiment; Московский пехотный полк; M1808
2nd Brigade:
Libau Infantry Regiment; Либавский пехотный полк; No details.
Sofia Infantry Regiment; Софийский пехотный полк; Austrian (Цесарские)
3rd Brigade:
11th Jaeger Regiment; No details.
36th Jaeger Regiment; British Brown Bess
24th Infantry Division:
1st Brigade:
Ufa Infantry Regiment; Уфимский пехотный полк; M1808
Shirvan Infantry Regiment; Ширванский пехотный полк; No details.
2nd Brigade;
Butyrki Infantry Regiment; Бутырский пехотный полк; No details.
Tomsk Infantry Regiment; Томский пехотный полк; No details.
3rd Brigade:
19th Jaeger Regiment; No details.
40th Jaeger Regiment; British Brown Bess
Seventh Infantry Corps:
26th Infantry Division:
1st Brigade:
Ladoga Infantry Regiment; Ладожский пехотный полк; No details.
Poltava Infantry Regiment; Полтавский пехотный полк; No details.
2nd Brigade:
Nizhnii Novgorod Infantry Regiment; Нижегородский пехотный полк; No details.
Orel Infantry Regiment; Орловский пехотный полк; Austrian (Цесарские)
3rd Brigade:
5th Jaeger Regiment; British Brown Bess
42nd Jaeger Regiment; No details.
12th Infantry Division:
1st Brigade:
Smolensk Infantry Regiment; Смоленский пехотный полк; No details
Narva Infantry Regiment; Нарвский пехотный полк; No details.
2nd Brigade:
Aleksopol Infantry Regiment; Алексопольский пехотный полк; No details.
Novoingermanland Infantry Regiment; Новоингерманландский пехотный полк; No details.
3rd Brigade:
6th Jaeger Regiment; No details.
41st Jaeger Regiment; No details.
Eighth Infantry Corps:
2nd Grenadier Division:
1st Brigade:
Kiev Grenadier Regiment; Киевский гренадерский полк; British Brown Bess
Moscow Grenadier Regiment; Московский гренадерский полк; British Brown Bess
2nd Brigade:
Astrakhan Grenadier Regiment; Астраханский гренадерский полк; British Brown Bess
Fanagoria Grenadier Regiment; Фанагорийский гренадерский полк; British Brown Bess
3rd Brigade:
Siberia Grenadier Regiment; Сибирский гренадерский полк; British Brown Bess
Little Russia Grenadier Regiment; Малороссийский гренадерский полк; British Brown Bess
2nd Combined Grenadier Division:
1st Brigade: 4 Combined Grenadier battalions; No details.
2nd Brigade: 6 Combined Grenadier battalions; No details.
En route to Second Army:
27th Infantry Division:
1st Brigade:
Odessa Infantry Regiment; Одесский пехотный полк; No details.
Ternopol Infantry Regiment; Тарнопольский пехотный полк; No details.
2nd Brigade:
Vilna Infantry Regiment; Виленский пехотный полк; No details.
Simbirsk Infantry Regiment; Симбирский пехотный полк; No details.
3rd Brigade:
49th Jaeger Regiment; No details.
50th Jaeger Regiment; No details.
Corps of General S. M. Kamensky
18th Infantry Division:
1st Brigade:
Vladimir Infantry Regiment; Владимирский пехотный полк; British Brown Bess
Tambov Infantry Regiment; Тамбовский пехотный полк; No details.
2nd Brigade:
Kostroma Infantry Regiment; Костромской пехотный полк; No details.
Dnieper Infantry Regiment; Днепровский пехотный полк; No details.
3rd Brigade:
28th Jaeger Regiment; No details.
32nd Jaeger Regiment; No details.
Corps of Lieutenant-General E. I. Markov
15th Infantry Division:
1st Brigade:
Kozlov Infantry Regiment; Козловский пехотный полк; M1808
Kolyvan Infantry Regiment; Колыванский пехотный полк; No details.
2nd Brigade:
Kurin Infantry Regiment; Куринский пехотный полк; No details.
Vitebsk Infantry Regiment; Витебский пехотный полк; No details.
3rd Brigade:
13th Jaeger Regiment; No details.
14th Jaeger Regiment; No details.
9th Infantry Division:
1st Brigade:
Nasheburg Infantry Regiment; Нашебургский пехотный полк; No details.
Iakutsk Infantry Regiment; Якутский пехотный полк; British Brown Bess
2nd Brigade:
Apsheron Infantry Regiment; Апшеронский пехотный полк; No details.
Riazhsk Infantry Regiment; Ряжский пехотный полк; No details.
3rd Brigade:
10th Jaeger Regiment; No details.
38th Jaeger Regiment; M1808
Corps of General Count A. de Langeron
22nd Infantry Division:
1st Brigade:
Viatka Infantry Regiment; Вятский пехотный полк; No details.
Staroskol Infantry Regiment; Старооскольский пехотный полк; British Brown Bess.
2nd Brigade:
Vyborg Infantry Regiment; Выборгский пехотный полк; No details.
3rd Brigade:
29th Jaeger Regiment; No details.
45th Jaeger Regiment; No details.
Corps of Lieutenant-General P. K. von Essen
8th Infantry Division:
1st Brigade:
Archangel Infantry Regiment; Архангелогородский пехотный полк; British Brown Bess
Ukraine Infantry Regiment; Украинский пехотный полк; No details.
2nd Brigade:
Schlüsselberg Infantry Regiment; Шлиссельбургский пехотный полк; British Brown Bess
Staroingermanland Infantry Regiment; Староингерманландский пехотный полк; British Brown Bess
3rd Brigade:
37th Jaeger Regiment; British Brown Bess
Corps of Lieutenant-General A. L. Voinov
10th Infantry Division:
1st Brigade:
Belostok Infantry Regiment; Белостокский пехотный полк; No details.
Crimea Infantry Regiment; Крымский пехотный полк; M1808
2nd Brigade:
Kursk Infantry Regiment; Курский пехотный полк; No details.
3rd Brigade:
8th Jaeger Regiment; No details.
39th Jaeger Regiment; M1808
Corps of Lieutenant-General A. P. Zass
16th Infantry Division:
1st Brigade:
Okhotsk Infantry Regiment; Охотский пехотный полк; M1808
2nd Brigade:
Kamchatka Infantry Regiment; Камчатский пехотный полк; M1808
Mingrelia Infantry Regiment; Мингрельский пехотный полк; Austrian (Цесарские)
Danube Army reserve:
Olonets Infantry Regiment; Олонецкий пехотный полк; No details.
Iaroslavl Infantry Regiment; Ярославский пехотный полк; No details.
7th Jaeger Regiment; No details.
Detachment in Serbia:
16th Infantry Division:
1st Brigade:
Neishlot Infantry Regiment; Нейшлотский пехотный полк; No details.
3rd Brigade:
27th Jaeger Regiment; No details.
43rd Jaeger Regiment; No details.
Finland Corps:
6th Infantry Division:
1st Brigade:
Briansk Infantry Regiment; Брянский пехотный полк; No details.
Nizov Infantry Regiment; Низовский пехотный полк; M1808
3rd Brigade:
Azov Infantry Regiment; Азовский пехотный полк; British Brown Bess.
3rd Jaeger Regiment; British Brown Bess.
21st Infantry Division:
1st Brigade:
Petrovsk Infantry Regiment; Петровский пехотный полк; M1808
Podolia Infantry Regiment; Подольский пехотный полк; No details.
2nd Brigade:
Neva Infantry Regiment; Невский пехотный полк; M1808
Lithuania Infantry Regiment; Литовский пехотный полк; No details.
3rd Brigade:
2nd Jaeger Regiment; No details.
44th Jaeger Regiment; No details.
25th Infantry Division:
1st Brigade:
1st Marine Regiment; 1-й морской полк; No details.
2nd Marine Regiment; 2-й морской полк; No details.
2nd Brigade:
3rd Marine Regiment; 3-й морской полк; No details.
Voronezh Infantry Regiment; Воронежский пехотный полк; British Brown Bess
3rd Brigade:
31st Jager Regiment; Swedish
47th Jaeger Regiment; No details.
End.
Altogether, there were 32 regiments armed with British Brown Bess, 49 regiments armed with new Russian Model 1808, 3 regiments armed with Austrian muskets and 1 jaeger regiment armed with captured Swedish muskets. (And five more regiments were armed with M1808 but did not take combat in 1812: Kazan, Sevastopol, Uglich Infantry Regiment, 35th, 46th Jaeger Regiment)

Wow, that is probably the most complete answer to any question I have ever seen in here.

Yes, Robert Woo did a fine job of translation on The Napoleonic Series Forum, and von Winterfeldt is a clever chap for remembering where to find it!

Ouch ty

Well if they made their own bullets and cardridges, it would not hurt so much.
Me think other armies must have done it too.

LOL: will you have new minis in 28 mm with different muskets?

Wow amazing answer! :)

Yes, it never hurts to paste and copy very good answers, all credit to Robert Woo

this is maybe of further interst of other experts as well, all credit to them

The 1798 Russian musket:
Calibre: 7.75 English lines (~19.7 mm).
Weight: ~5 kg.
Length of barrel: 1030 mm.
Length of musket: 1430-1440 mm.
Weight of bullet: 7 zolotnik (~29.8 gr).
Weight of powder charge: 2.5 zolotnik (~11.0 gr).
The 1805 Russian musket:
Calibre: 7.5 English lines (~19.0 mm).
Weight: ~5.575 kg.
Length of barrel: 1138 mm.
Length of musket (including the bayonet): 1830 mm.
Weight of bullet: 8 zolotnik (~33.6 gr).
Weight of powder charge: 2.5 zolotnik (~11.0 gr).
The 1808 Russian musket:
Calibre: 7.0 English lines (~17.78 mm).
Weight: ~4.470 kg.
Length of barrel: 1143 mm.
Length of musket (including the bayonet): 1830 mm.
Diameter of bullet: 6.25 lines (~15.9 mm).
Weight of bullet: 6 zolotnik (~25.6 gr).
Weight of powder charge: 2 and 1/3 zolotnik (~10.0 gr).
Best wishes,
Alexander Zhmodikov

Well, are Brown Bess good enogh?
By 1812, 110,000 Brown Bess equipped front line Russian forces and another 40,000 were being distributed during the early part of the campaign.
150,000-200,000 of the latest Russian M1808 musket were also issued, with more being produced. This was an excellent musket, trying to combine the best of the Brown Bess and French "Charleville".
In general, for front-line units, the muskets were common/identical per regiment by 1812.

Yes, Jäger in a division would get the new ones first. Also, the lower-numbered Jäger units might not have really turned in their almost new M1805 Russian Jäger rifles. But really, even the new units like 27th Division got great muskets.
Russians liked the Brown Bess and M1808 so much that they typically would issue captured French muskets only to rear-area or militia units. I have shot the good replica's of both the Brown Bess and M18108 -- they seem essentially very similar and quite workmanlike.
The idea of "bad Russian muskets" or "bad Russian powder" have specific historical sources : Sir Robert Wilson reporting what he saw in 1806 and a specific report of ~1808. These documents are then (i) over-emphasized even as to the situation of 1805-1807 (usually because the "historians" in the west think that Russian manufacturing and logistics worked like the French, which it didn't) and (ii) magically extended to apply to 1812-1814.
Actually, the review of small arms (for which the report of 1808 was created) led to fundamental changes by 1812.
But (allow snarky comment, please), when you're an "expert" but don't have any Russian, what are you going to be able to say about them?

By:Robert Woo <Send E-Mail>
Date: 2/27/2013, 7:42 am
In Response To: Re: The Armaments of Russian Infantry in 1812 June (Richard Adlington)
As I checked (from Speranskii's dissertation 'Voenno-ekonomicheskaia podgotovka Rossii k bor'be s Napoleonom v 1812–1814' and Ulʹyanov's books)
Russia bought about 60,000 'Brown Bess', 300,000 flints and 60 molds for casting bullets from Britain in 1806, and British ships shipped them to Russia in May 1807(Speranskii, P82-84), the muskets were from Birmingham, London and London Tower. Their quality was much better than the muskets provided by Britain in 1812.
Besides, Russia bought 16,750 muskets, 11,550 sabers and 218,500 'French' flints from Austria in 1808 for the war against Ottoman Empire, I believe the three 'Austrian Musket' regiments were armed with them. (Speranskii, P87) However, Russian generals did not speak high of them, for example, Paskevich,
'I ordered the 1st Battalion of the Orlovskii Regiment to charge them w ith bayonets……Besides, I had very poor muskets and ordered my men to collect French weapons and thus replenish the entire regiment.' (Mikaberidze's Russian Eyewitness Accounts of the Campaign of 1812 P97-98)
The Orlovskii Regiment is the Orel Infantry Regiment above, one of the three regiments armed with Austrian muskets.
Robert

Thanks!

Awesome set of answers folks, I can transliterate off the top of my head but have a very limited vocabulary.

Sometimes entertain myself looking at weird stuff like this through ILL…. (My local public Library is much more comfortable with "Inspirational (Christian) Romance Fiction" Don't ask.)

Production of 150,000-200,000 between 1808 and 1812? With Acceptable Quality. Anyone know French and English Acceptances for comparison? Someone someday will publish a dissertation about Pre-Industrial Production at Tula, but that is a discussion for a separate thread.

French fusil d'infanterie

1808 : 142,462
1809 : 167,443
1810 : 193,392
1811 : 174,020
1812 : 101,084

So yes, in my view, the Russian figure looks credible.

As for the Russians, one would have to ask Dominique Lieven, I have to check his book about the Russian army.

Brilliant! I always thought that 19 dozen caliber story dreck a load of donkey manure

Remember Caliber also refers to lenght (generally an old use now) so Different factories would produce muskets of same caliber (diameter of barrel) but defferent Calibers in lenght.

With the the 1798 1805 and 1808 thrown in on top which did have different Calibers (diameters).

seems one years production would equip the field army infantry
with new issue each year.

Excellent material – thank you for digging it out

Herr von Winterfeldt!
Could you kindly provide the source of French fusil d'infanterie prodution figures?
I only have the total figures from An XI to 1819:

Roanne
11.455
Culembourg
6.742
Liège
242.735
Versailles
82.793
Turin
83.480
Saint-Etienne
683.941
Tulle
51.636
Maubeuge
173.059
Charleville
327.855
Mutzig
262.585
Soit au total
1.926.281

Pigeard, L'Armée Napoléonienne, p. 367

Boudriot, Jean : 1806 – L'Infanterie Imperiale – 1815
Gazette des Armes Nr. 7, pp.32