"Question on UK ORBATs during the Cold War" Topic

It appears from different sources that throughout the cold war the British platoon ORBAT included three sections of either 8 or 9 men. How was the section organized? In a 9-man section was it a section leader and two four-man teams as in the US Army? In an 8-man section was it organized as a section leader with half the section and an assistant section leader with the other half of the section as in WWII? What ranks would these folks be?

Thanks,

Buck Surdu

I'm sure that ex-British Army soldiers will chip in here with better information, but as I understand it the WW2 section organisation was essentially continued up to the 1980s, with the Section split into a 'Gun Group' of three men around the GPMG and Section 2IC and a 'Rifle Group' with the remaining men around the Section Commander. The Carl-Gustav 84mm MAW would accompany the Rifle Group.

Some units then adopted an equal 'Fireteam' organisation by moving some riflemen from the Rifle Group to the Gun group.

In the late 80s, with the adoption of L85 rifles and L86 Light Support Weapons, the Section was equalised into two fireteams, with one LSW per Fireteam.

I'm told that many units also held on to their GPMGs and when going to war they would grab as many GPMGs and L2A1 LMGs that they could find in the armoury (an ex-Commando friend tells me that this was certainly the case in the Falklands – his sections had two GPMGs and ditched their CGs in order to carry more MILAN ammunition).

I think rifle group/gun group dates back to 1972 at least.

Exactly as J Fawr says. When I joined in the mid eighties we were still using training films from the sixties, gun group and rifle group. Nothing much has changed since, still two manoeuvre elements, one generally heavier than the other.

Rifle group/gun group was what they did in WW2 too.

I believe things changed a bit when L85 turned up, but the Cold war was pretty much over by then. Before that it was GPMG and SLR (and before that, Brens and No 4).

Is the section organized as a sergeant section leader with two corporal team leaders or a sergeant section leader and a corporal assistant section leader?

Is the section organized as a sergeant section leader with two corporal team leaders or a sergeant section leader and a corporal assistant section leader?

No. A section was normally commanded by a Corporal and the gun group was commanded by a Lance Corporal.
link

Section Commander wa a Cpl, Gun group commanded by L/Cpl. All changed with SA-80 and Warrior AIFV,

Tally Ho!

Still a Corporal Section commander and LCpl 2 I/C. A problem with international operations is rank equivalency, a Sgt in the US has less responsibility than a Sgt in the UK. Sgts in the UK are platoon 2I/Cs or leaders, in the US it's done by a Staff Sgt, exactly the same job and NATO OR code, just named differently by different countries.

Yes from my experience Jemima has it just right. In the summer of 1985 the School of Infantry, Warminster, was teaching Platoon Commanders the 2 fire team concept, as the SA80/Light Support Weapon was slowly being introduced. The main motivation for the SA80 was a lighter round since the calibre was only 5.56mm, meaning a soldier could carry far more.

Section of 8 men, 2 Fire teams of 4, one led by the Corporal as Section Commander, the other by the Lance corporal. Each fire team would be getting 1 x LSW (an SA80 rifle with a heavier barrel and bipod to permit more accurate bursts) and 3 x SA80.

However at the School, training in these tactics was conducted with 2 LMGs (old Bren gun re-chambered to NATO 7.62) and 6 SLRs. I would suggest that in the British Army at the time, depending on equipment scales, you would find some battalions sticking to gun group and rifle group, including those only issued SLRs and with 1 GPMG per section, and some using fire teams, including of course those unfortunates already issued with SA80/LSWs.

Notwithstanding this stress on Section Battle Drills, budding platoon commanders were encouraged to mix and match their section assets to meet the situation in hand. For example, in a deliberate attack that was forced to assault across unfeasibly open ground, you might concentrate all the LMGs into one base of fire to shoot in the assault, and have two slightly larger manouever elements which would themselves conduct fire and manoeuvre right upto the objective…

Something just remembered: A lot of units (but apparently not all) were also issued M79 40mm grenade launchers, though I've no idea how they would be scaled or organised. I did read one account from the Falklands of a platoon commander grouping together all his M79s as a fire support element.

Thanks everyone for your help.

Buck

P.S. I had no idea the M-79 was used in the UK. Was that used like the M-203, mounted to an SLR or as a stand-alone weapon.

Stand alone

There is a photo somewhere of a Royal Marine on his way to the Falklands holding one

Thanks for all the information!

Yes, it was the stand-alone, wooden-stocked weapon, as seen in Terminator 2. :)

However, the SAS and SBS used M203, as they generally used the AR15 family of weapons.

The photo Geoff is thinking of was actually a Welsh Guardsman (sorry Geoff).

I think the reason for its issue at the time was that there was no HE round being manufactured for the platoon-level 51mm mortar – only smoke (the 51mm mortar has gone in and out of service at various times). It was certainly used extensively in Northern Ireland and the Falklands.

On the subject of GPMGs; I was only just reading that 2 Para was using two GPMGs per section in the Falklands, the same as 42 RM Cdo and probably others. Goes to show that nice, familiar peacetime orgs could go out of the window in wartime.

Sorry to the Welsh Guards!!!

Wasn't the GPMG technically out of service by then, but mysteriously appeared when they headed off to the Falklands, or was that just talk?

Just talk, the GPMG was taken off the sections when SA80 was adopted a few years later, but was soon brought back again. But it was kept in service officially for the SF role and all the different vehicles it was mounted on.

No, the GPMG was still very much in service then. That only changed when L85/L86 came in and GPMGs stopped being section-level weapons.

As it was described to me, when they were shipped out for the Falklands, the armourers and suppliers just opened the doors and said 'Take what you want, lads'. 42 Cdo certainly took stacks of extra GPMGs and MILAN firing-posts.

There was 'talk' of withdrawing the GPMG once the change to 5.56 was done……concerns over the loss of firepower-taking out a belt fed mg and replacing it with 2 mag-fed ones that ate all the magged-up ammo in the section and 'cos in practice it was found that the LSW could be problematic when hot and the barrels couldn't be swapped out in the field……..let alone the build quality and design flaws in the first several batches ( plastic stock/grip components that fell off in handling and mag-release catch with no shroud etc), anyway the GPMG was left in service!
( When the LSW was 'fixed' I was very happy to use it, great thing to fire and it didn't weigh like the Jimpy)

With apologies for the slight tangent…

The guys lugging the radios and their weapons: Sterlings or SLRs? I'm getting mixed reports. Eg my old man (Signals) only ever remembers having an SLR when out with his set, and a couple of vets I've spoken with said the SLR was the preferred option in NI, but was there a standard practice or did it depend on role/unit/whims of the commander?

(1979-80s)

The old missive of ' shoot the guy with the pistol\smg first' comes into play, we never had a fixed radio man, it was who ever got dicked on the da,,,,,y…,.we were all comms trained and we all had SLR's…..smudge guns were tagged for drivers and support personnel for personal protection or officers who wanted one.

Perfect, thanks Gaz. That's broadly what I thought (I keep getting asked for guys with Sterlings though, so sounds like that's a separate pack for those that want them).

A few ex-infantrymen have commented here that the CG 84mm bloke often got an SMG.

I couldn't say about 42 Cmdo, but I believe 2 Para were were receiving replacement GPMGs, one for one, at the time the Falklands crisis kicked off and simply didn't complete the handover. This provided them with two guns per section, six guns per platoon. And a lot more link to carry down off Sussex to Goose Green.

Lt Col Jones was, of course, carrying an SMG when he got shot, but he kind of stuck out anyway as he was the only man who broke cover at the critical moment.

Wasn't the Carl Gustav 84 a platoon A/T weapon, with 66 R/Ls in the sections?

Cheers 42F, that's interesting (and fortunate)!

CGs were meant to be section weapons (three per platoon), with about six 66s also dished out to the section. Hopefully Andy P will chip in, as he was a CG bloke.

I think that reality often differed to the orgs! :)