"Rejecting GW for their pricing doesn't hold water" Topic

So this is just reinforcing something that is generally well known.

However, I found this UK site today:

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There are at least half a dozen sites in the UK and other places where you can get GW stuff retail, new, in the shrinkwrap, for upwards of THIRTY to FORTY percent off of the original price. This site, Triplehelixwargames, has prices that in some cases are nearly HALF off the original GW price.

This site has new 8th Edition battalion boxes for about $65. USD These things originally went for $100 USD-110 retail!

What's more, you can get the AOS starter set from Ebay now for HALF the original price, right here. Boxed AOS starter set in shrinkwrap, 47 miniatures + rules + dice + measuring sticks , many of those miniatures hero-sized, for $69.00 USD-$75.00 INCLUDING shipping. That is LESS than half the original price:

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Now, to those who have chosen to disregard GW's miniatures and their games because of their pricing, well…it no longer holds water. I'm sorry, but it doesn't. You can dislike the aesthetics of the new AOS miniatures, you can dislike their rules, you can dislike the way they run their business, you can dislike GW for their secrecy and they way they release new games, you can dislike the way they wrote their army books, you dislike GW's lore…but you personally no longer have to pay GW's prices. There are so many options to bypass what they charge.

The reason is that you can now get 7th, 8th Edition, as well as Age of Sigmar, for a fraction of GW's current pricing. So, if you think that $60 USD for a particular boxed set of GW minis is a GW scandalous gouging rippoff, but you can get that same boxed set NEW for $35 USD or $40 USD and you can bypass GW's retail pricing altogether, then what exactly is the argument?

What I'm trying to say is this – If you personally can get a GW army or armies collected for half the price of the original prices, and you still cry ripoff, well then you are disliking GW for some other reason that has nothing do with pricing.

If you think that investing $750.00 USD to make a decent-sized Empire army for example is an outrageous barrier to entry into Warhammer, well if you can make that same Empire army for $375.00 USD, you have to look at raw and real cost to YOU, not reject GW minis based on what they WOULD have cost you IF you had been forced to buy directly from the evil GW headquarters. That just makes no sense.

It doesn't matter what GW originally charged, the fact is that if the quality of GW's miniatures is worthy of owning them, you can't compare the original GW prices against a competitor's lower prices for comparable miniatures. And to be quite blunt – getting an 8th Edition battalion box new for $60 USD or $70 USD??? Or the AOS starter set new for $75 USD??? There is no gamer with any good sense that could say that those are unfair prices for miniatures that have the level of detail that GW's do. Those are amazingly good prices, to say otherwise means that you are emotionally rejecting GW's products for reasons that as I said, have nothing to do with their pricing.

What's more, this whole argument that GW's profits have been and are continuing to be damaged because there is so much after-market GW stuff available at discounts, well that reasoning also holds no water. The reason is quite simple – every single after-market GW product for sale on Ebay, going back ten, fifteen years, and sites like Triplehelixwargames and others, were at one time or another originally a GW SALE. In other words, for all those products to make it to secondary markets, SOMEBODY HAD TO ORIGINALLY BUY IT directly from GW at some point! GW made their money off the original sale, either to a volume-vendor or an individual customer. The fact that there's so much NEW stuff available from after-market vendors means that GW products are SELLING.

All those products were originally purchased from GW, they didn't just mysteriously sprout out of the ground and materialize on Ebay to wreak havoc with GW's current sales and their supposedly "poorly conceived and unsustainable business model".

If you look at the vendors on Ebay that sell GW stuff new at a discount, you will notice that in many cases these vendors have 10, 20, and 30 or more of a particular new boxed set or individual miniature in stock. That means that they bought them from GW in volume and are now reselling them at a discount because they know gamers like GW minis and given the opportunity to buy them at a good price, they will.

These aren't the classic dusty old auctions for 15 or 20 partially broken and partially primed goblins missing their shields from 6th Edition – these are online Ebay gaming stores selling brand new GW products that, when you get them, are every bit as new as if you had bought them from GW itself.

The other thing that goes completely over people's heads is the fact that many of these same Ebay vendors also maintain a physical location or store, in the form of an actual retail store space, or physical space devoted to a business run out of an individual's house. And what's more, these vendors sell these new GW products as Buy It Now products, there is no bidding. You buy them at the price the vendor sells them at, just as if you were buying them from any gaming store or web store.

That is entirely different than a scattered community of former Warhammer gamers dejectedly "dumping their old GW stuff" on an auction site, and supposedly undercutting GW's ability to sell their current stuff.

I've really come full circle with this. There was a time when I would have ranted as loudly as anyone on the web about GW's supposedly out of control and elite pricing.

But I've come to see that GW is a miniatures company trying to make money like any other miniatures company. I think that one of the primary reasons that GW is so disliked by so many is simply because it's the biggest target to pick on in the wargaming world, and little more.

That's my two cents on GW pricing. I still think that GW makes the best fantasy miniatures out there, and the games and the world they created to support those miniatures are among the best out there.

Isn't that only true in the UK, due to consumer protection laws there?

Yes, it is true that Triplehelixgames ships GW products only within Europe. But I use them as an example of the secondary pricing that DOES exist out there. And my point is still totally valid, because you can find a hundred vendors on Ebay that ship anywhere in the world, and have prices that offer significant discounts off of GW's original retail prices.

Never drink the kool aid, even if advertised as being free!

First I really dislike the age of sigmas figures I have seen.

Second. A set of figures that runs $7 USD per plastic figure is still overpriced at 40 percent off.

I really liked their lord of the rings figures. I could not justify the hobbit minis. It was not even a matter of being able to afford it. I just could not justify the price to myself

They aren't any more expensive than most other high quality fantasy or sci-fi figs out there.

The price of a 5 man purgation squad:

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vs this 6 man Pan Oceana force:

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26 euros from GW, 40 euros from Corvus Belli for one more figure.

I would argue that the Corvus Belli figures are better sculpts with more unique poses and you do get one more figure, but the per figure cost is 5.2 euros from GW vs. 6.66 Euros from Corvus Belli.

Compare to Malifaux

1 GW Orc Shaman:

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1 Daemon sorcerer.

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So $20 USD vs. $16. USD GW is more expensive but not outrageously so.

If you compare it to the sorcerer:

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GW is cheaper by a buck or so.

Compare to Hordes/Warmachine

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Four figures for $50. USD

Compare to GW Oges:

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or Iron Guts:

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So either four or 6 figures for $40. USD

They really aren't that out of line with what any of the high level figure producers are making.

I am sure this is all very interesting, but it has absolutely no influence whatsoever on my personal purchasing decisions.

If other people want to buy GW stuff, good luck to them.

I've never rejected, or criticised GW for their pricing. I own some GW miniatures I liked, and a fair bit of GW paint.

On the other hand I don't play their games because I don't like their rules..

Cheers,
JohnG

The point surely is rejecting anything on price is a personal thing. I reject buying hobby stuff from lots of different companies based on my own ideas of weather I'm getting enough bang for my buck. So rejecting GW on price grounds does hold water because it us an individual consideration based on the budget and choices of each hobbyists.

Doesn't work for me, on this side of the pond, but I don't like their figure ranges anyway, so it is a moot point.

Paying even $7 USD for a single figure seems daft to me.

I still think that GW makes the best fantasy miniatures out there, and the games and the world they created to support those miniatures are among the best out there.

Good for you, but many people have moved on or simply do not agree.

I haven't bought a GW game or miniatures for the past 20 years. They simply do not appeal to me anymore. So I don't care at all what their pricing point is.

But if you say 375 is a good price for an army, I think that shows you need some recalibration. Sure, it looks like a good deal, but in the end, it's still a bunch of plastic toys.

The tone of the original post suggests that the world is divided into those who like GW and those who dislike it. For many of us, however, GW is just irrelevant, because we're interested in other things. I play and run games mostly in the Traveller universe, for example.

I actually own some GW miniatures that I use in other miniatures games. I think my entire Sword Worlder platoon is made up of GW figures that I bought on sale for about $1 USD each about 20 years ago. They're nice figures, although some of their weapons are too big.

I dont agree with most that the OP has written.
I dont collect GW "as-is" anymore, DUE TO PRICE.
And i am a GW fan-boy

Reccomend boning up on how pricing works, especially the concept of market clearance. Basically if a product is for sale for less than its original price point, thats because there is insufficient demand for the goods at that price. So a wide range of sellers happy to take a lower price than RRP indicates low demand.

The other thing to consider is that GW is a price setter for the wargames industry. So in relation to the comment that GW is priced well vs other high end miniatures is kind of skewed. It isn't that GW is reasonably priced compared to the likes of CB with Infinity, rather that GW pricing enables other manufacturers to sell at higher prices as the price setter (GW) has their products in market and at premium prices.

Ah market economics! Still doesn't change my personal view on GW – it got me in to the hobby, but it couldn't keep me playing their games. Mainly because their minis are crud (I'm looking at you Wood Elves).

Still too pricey. That's why I prefer smaller scales.

I'll reject GW for any reason I please, thank you very much.

Lost interest in cartoon orcs and spikey bits when I was about 16. And it's still too expensive.

I remember how enthused I was when GW launched Warhamster Epic twenty eight years ago. 6mm sci fi minis! Wow! Why had no one thought of that before? (Yes, I know that some people had, but they were small and crude lines.) And such minis! And in plastic, so we could buy tons!! And look at those titans!!!

So I bought tons of these minis. And the years went by….

And GW dumbed down the rules. And right when I had everything painted and based, they changed the game and the army lists and the basing. And then the figures started getting stupider and stupider. Ork vehicles with huge rivets. Marine vehicles with massive cannon. The whole lot started to seem designed by a bunch of fourteen year old boys with huge Freudian issues.

And GW started getting even more and more gothic and metal. Every single thing female disappeared from their lines.

And the price hikes came. And the Games Workshop Hobby. And the legions of toe-biting kiddies. And the crappy, exagerated sculpts. And yet more rule changes (how many editions of Warhamster in how many years?)

And I finally came to the conclusion that Games Workshop was not for me.

What I am saying here is that their prices are only a small part of the problem. GW left gamers like me behind years ago and I am more than happy to do them the same favor. Why in heavens would I play AoS when I have Dragon Rampart available at a fraction of the price? Or, if I want so spend GW-style on the rules, there's Saga.

I remember being annoyed when they put their 28mm figures up to 50p each :-)

"if you think that investing $750.00 USD USD to make a decent-sized Empire army for example is an outrageous barrier to entry into Warhammer, well if you can make that same Empire army for $375.00 USD USD,"

Or go with Perry Historicals and build it for 230$

Let us clear some things

If you like GW(Citadel Miniatures) products for aesthetic reasons than price is irrelevant. Only GW makes GW products (plus some criminals). There are ranges with the GW aesthetic but they are indeed more expensive.

If you like GW products for the fluff but are not welded to the representation of the fluff on the tabletop as it is done by GW(Citadel Miniatures) then yes they are much more priced than the competition.

If you just like the rules and care nothing of the fluff or aestehtic, than again their are still much more priced than the competition.

To put it simply GW wins over competitors like Old Glory or Perry's only if you really like their miniatures. Otherwise playing Warhammer using Perry Miniatures (for Brettonia or the Empire), or Old Glory (for many of the races) is cheaper.

So I am not sure of the point of this thread. If you like the aesthetics you will not care about GW prices. I you like the rules or just the fluff than their are cheaper stuff out there to permit you to enjoy them.

I love GW Space Marines. I think they are way more priced than alternatives, but I specifically like that aesthetic. Thus that is irrelevant.

I remember being annoyed when they put their 28mm figures up to 50p each :-)

Heck maybe this dates me but I remember when GW switched over to making table top war games, and when they stated selling separate metal miniatures to support those games instead of including cardboard counters in the box with the rules was when things went down hill…

Now I just can't get my head around anything GW but somewhere at the back of a cupboard I've got an army of getting on for a hundred or so terminators from the days when several of them came in a box for ten quid.

I like some of the stuff GW makes, don't like some of it, and what I buy is what I like

As to price, since a lot of what I like is Oldhammer one thing that works for me is to buy used minis at the Friendly Local Gaming Shop – I have just finished four Empire regiments using this at a fraction of what new would cost

I started to write what became a really long post. So I am going to summarize it instead. I went to their site (GW), found a single figure that I could use with my old IG figs. Their price was $21.00 USD. I quickly searched out another source that discounted it at $12.99 USD. I value the fig as being a $3.00 USD 28-30mm human figure. My $3.00 USD value comes from the fact that I master, mold, cast and produce my own figures, and if I made that fig, I would market it at $3.00 USD. That is what it is worth to me.

I can here you scoffing at my estimated value. I made my first figure in 1979, and my latest one last weekend. In between those dates, I have purchased over 17000 figures using that methodology. The value of a fig is a personal thing. If you wish to dismiss each of us out of hand, do so. But I will treat you with greater consideration.

The figures are only ONE ELEMENT in the price.

When locally you have players that only want to play the current version, you are also shelling out money each year either buying a new ruleset or a new codex, and replacing units that used to be just fine for ones that can keep up with the nerfing and flavor-of-the-month.

I got sick of it and stuck to a themed army, losing every single game I played until eventually that theme (and the rules unique to them) was discontinued.

I walked and have been happy ever since.

@Pictor: Infinity, Warmachine and Malifaux are skirmisher games, requiring *FAR* fewer figures to field a game, so apples and oranges there. Plus I still consider those two WAY overpriced, trying to make up for the fact that you do not need many figures by bumping the price for those figures higher.

Does not mean I do not like the look of those companies offerings – because I do.

Here are two Ebay examples of exactly what I'm talking about.

The first vendor is named "Rokresh". He sells new GW stuff from 6th, 7th, 8th and up to AOS. He has regular discounts of 25% AND always free shipping, which you have to factor in as well.

Here's some of the latest AOS chaos stuff in Rokresh's listings:
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You can't deny those are awesome prices for GW plastics. If you built a chaos force and you bought the above items, you get about $50 USD knocked right off the top of the retail total, and no shipping charges. That $50 USD is freed up to get two more regimental boxes of something else, or whatever else.

The next vendor is even better. On Ebay his name is Lazarus Games. Lazarus games maintains an inventory of literally hundreds of GW metals and plastics. What's great about Lazarus Games is that he essentially sells like-new condition GW plastics that are already assembled. And not only are they already assembled, but you get a lot of the stuff for at least 30% off the original price.

How can you go wrong with that? Discounts off of GW's prices and you get the miniatures already ASSEMBLED? The saving in time and labor plus the fact they are hugely discounted. I was able to collect an entire Ogre Kingdoms army by buying from Lazarus, most of it was 30-40% off, with combined shipping discounts, and all I have to do is prime and paint them. The other great thing about Lazarus is that even though technically he doesn't sell GW new in the shrinkwrap, you get minis guaranteed to be in new condition, and the guy packs these things like iron. He makes sure that every single plastic mini is surrounded by bubblewrap inside the outer box.

I recently bought a couple regiments of Night Goblins units from Lazarus, two regiments of 20 figures each, for $17 USD for each regiment! – and that's in mint condition and already assembled!:

More examples from Lazarus' site:
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Here's some other vendors that I've also used for new and like-new condition GW plastics:
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Here's one for three brand new regiments of Night Goblins brand new for $68.99 USD. That works out to about $22.50 USD per box. These retail for $35 USD each. You're getting about $36 USD knocked off the retail total right there:
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Those are all great prices.

It's like telling someone who already has a Lexus in fine working order (or has given up driving for other greener transportation) that they should stop talking about the high cost of Infinity cars and just buy one *here* because the price is lower than direct from the dealer.

I am not looking for another car, and some are not looking for a car at all. Either way, we can still comment as much as we like at the cost from the dealer.

It always amazes me the passion behind the pro and anti GW crowds. Personally I can't see it.

My wargaming started well before GW and I never particularly fancied any of the 'games' or 'systems' that they did so never bought any of their products or played their games. Maybe that's why I can't understand why the OP gets so up tight about this.

Those are all great prices.

Good for you, but again, these are good prices only if you are solely interested in GW product.

If you would look at some ranges from other manufacturers, these prices are still high. So most wargamers not specifically or exclusively interested in GW, buy somewhere else.

Is that so hard to understand?

One thing I'd like to point out when looking at those deep discount GW re-sellers of new product is that while yes those can present much better value is that only a very limited choice models are available.

So, yes you could build an "army" as it were on the cheap(er) your unit options are restricted to varying degrees. And so, without going all in and paying full retail as most of what you'd need to complete your force you would have no choice but to pay full retail for the rest or like me be patient and search out EBAY and the like.

What if I want to add a unit of Goblin Wolf Riders or regular Goblins? Those 20 year old models are still being pushed at $35.00 USD per box. They are GW direct only so no discounts. I HAVE to get the Night Goblins which the rules also favored.

GW aren't expensive… this single, monopose, plastic miniature for £20.00 GBP proves it:

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Yes other retailers sell it cheaper… but GW charge £20.00 GBP for it and they believe that is what it is worth (or what they can get away with).

GW has always looked ridiculous to me. And $30 USD for one plastic figure? C'mon!

But if you like 'em,go nuts.

I avoided GW (apart from paint, but that's another story) until the LotR stuff came out, then I succumbed. I was prepared to pay treble the "Minifigs" cost to allow for the fact that all the shops have to be paid for, and there was a premium for the film copyright, etc. But the Hobbit figures just took the p*ss. Fortunately I have no interest in any other GW figures, which have become even more expensive.

Here's a not so secret, gw sells to retailers at 40% of retail price

Last time I said something about GW's prices I was told to stop harassing the 40K guys.(?) I thought the Ed. was joking. But than made it clear he was serious !

Seems to me there are a number on this thread that should get that same PM … yes ?

Unless I'm "special" … On the TMP double super secret probation list ?

Honestly, compared to their competitors with War Machine etc., the figures aren't really any more expensive.

Games like Warmachine look cheaper because you don't need very many, but 28mm fantasy figures are all kinda pricey.

Be careful about what you say or you might end up in the Dawghouse.

Well, i have been into 40k since RT was released, and i LOVE LOVE LOVE space marines, "cartoony" orks and just about the whole "look" of 40k(what things i don't like can be counted on 2 hands. such as SPACE WOLVES RIDING WOLVES??WTF? jumped the shark on that one, gotta say.)

Having said that, the price killed my club years ago. And the rules being a complete and total s**t sandwich. That, too.

But we still play Blood Bowl, The best game GW ever produced.

As for price I have been able to pick up better deals with Mantic Games.

Last time I said something about GW's prices I was told to stop harassing the 40K guys.(?) I thought the Ed. was joking.

No he does not joking since I been sent to the Dawghouse twice now for stating my opinions on AoS and GW.

"But we still play Blood Bowl, The best game GW ever produced."

I think that is a true statement.

JohnG

And when gw comesback to blood bowl, i hope its just new figures and a nice new pitch.
I don't care what they do to the rules. My club likes the rules as they are…

Well, the proof in the pudding is this, I think…

I don't see many players playing GW rules with other figs. I mean, I am sure it happens and I am sure lots of people, say, swap Perry in for Bretonnians (or would, if Bretonnians existed anymore). But frankly, the GW-playing folks stick to GW.

That's GW's genius: they made a mostly self-contained product line,mthen calved it off from the hobby. Wargaming gets a handful of recruits from the "GW hobby", but that's about it.

But the fact is that most folks aren't enamored of GW's rules to the point where they have to play that game and will swap in other figures to do so.

And it's not because the basic rules engine is bad: it has been essentially cloned many times into other rules systems that gamers love. It's because the rules system becomes so top-heavy from fluff that changes on an almost monthly basis that it's really not worth keeping up with.

I've observed over the years that GW staff seem to regard their pricing structure as being "the market value" for what they sell.

This is difficult to confirm or deny, especially when they frequently confirm their own product with…..er……….well………..more of their own product. Frinstance, Betrayal at Calth is, according to GWers not only "totally Ossum" but very good value if you compare the sum of the components with their price when bought through the Forgeworld Horus Heresy range.

But it's worth noting that GW's Black Library books (about the only thing with a comparable high street mainstream equivalent) are priced firmly within the range of what you'd call a "market price" for paperback fiction.

Another thing worth considering is the views of hobby-type retail outlets in relation to various sorts of wargame product. I've dealt with a lot of hobby/military model/railway model shops and fairs. Many of them have dropped wargames hobbies (or refused to get involved with them at all) simply because there's no money in it for them.

This is partly down to manufacturers (GW amongst others) who don't offer sufficient margin to justify the shelf-space, minimum order levels, etc. But time and again, I hear the view that, put bluntly, we wargamers are just too tight-fisted and refuse to pay anything like a "market price" for our hobby product. Compare the prices for setting up a starter wargame with the cost of setting up a starter model railway layout and you begin to get the picture.

Go to a model railway show and you'll find dedicated hobbyists laying down £hundreds for a locomotive, a bit of rolling stock, and some plastic sheep.

Go to a wargames convention and there'll be some gamers moaning about having to shell out an "extortionate" £3.00 GBP for a pack of 15mm infantry, which is barely worth the sculptor and moulder's time and materials.

Be careful about what you say or you might end up in the Dawghouse.

No he does not joking since I been sent to the Dawghouse twice now for stating my opinions on AoS and GW.

I think like much of the monitoring of TMP, it may depend with which Ed. is on duty. And the mood Bill is in ! If his 40K Orks got smashed by Chaos in a game of 40K … he may be looking for payback ! Or be possessed by Chaos deamons ! And you may just be on TMP at the wrong place at the wrong time !

Really Wonk, you're going to compare fine upstanding wargamers to the social defectives that collect trains?

That said, I've found some GW prices to be justifiable, if it's what I want.

I will say I've bought more GW stuff in the past 2 months from my local comic book store, than from the localish Games Workshop in the past 3 years because they sell ALL regiment boxes for 20 dollars.

At that price Doom Fire Warlocks look purchasable, and I did, and assembled them as Dark Riders. Because the B-side is ALWAYS better than the A-side in the GW double boxes.

To be worth it, every GW model would need the be 70-80% discounted.

Price killed it for me and their slow slide into rules chaos only confirmed.

You can keep buying from them.

Personally, I gleefully await the day that they die out and sell their IP to someone that will do it justice.

I've found some GW prices to be justifiable,

So did I but that was over 20 years ago.

All of the "High End" manufacturers have left me behind. Their figures remind me of the Star Wars prequels…. now that we have 3d modeling how much detail and crap can we cram into a movie frame or onto a figure. They just muddy everything up to me. Give me clean, classic lines like Copplestone or the Perrys any day.

Charging more for it just makes it that much less attractive.

Used to be a GW fanboy 25 years ago.

Quickly ended that idiocy with their catch and release games like Necro, Warmaster, Mordheim, and the like. I would buy in and just when I had painted armies they would drop it and move on to the next flavor of the year. Other problem was every time you got a warhammer or 40K army that was working for you they would change the rules making you buy new figs and the whold library of codexes all over. NOPe…chose to walk away instead. Rather then getting more of my money they lost all my sales and I found another game to play.

If they bring back the old games (and don't frack them up to make me buy new stuff) then I may dust off the old stuff and play again.

As for the pricing issues they did it to themselves. As players change armies it is too expensive to just closet the troops so they E-bay em to recover enough to start a new army. Keeps the figs in circulation much longer. Also a lot of the older figs seen to be of better quality then the cheaper plastics they produce now and last longer also.

"So, if you think that $60.00 USD USD for a particular boxed set of GW minis is a GW scandalous gouging rippoff, but you can get that same boxed set NEW for $35.00 USD USD or $40.00 USD USD and you can bypass GW's retail pricing altogether, then what exactly is the argument?"

The only places you have shown that I could buy that set for less:
charge so much postage that it is minimal improvement over buying it over the counter.
Won't ship to my location.
Have redefined "new" as "de-packaged and assembled by hands unknown".

The argument is that I can't get these prices. So, while from your viewpoint you are getting evidence to support your 12yo smack talk, from my viewpoint you are simply proving your ignorance of the simple facts, that GW figures are overpriced, their rulebooks are overpriced, many of them suck, those that don't are far more than they are worth, and any argument against buying them doesn't hold water only because there is no water left. And no amount of juvenile whinging, fanboying and pissing contests is going to make me pay more than fifty bucks for a single assassin figure.

" I still think that GW makes the best fantasy miniatures out there, and the games and the world they created to support those miniatures are among the best out there."

Meaning you've never bothered to look.

If anyone even imagines that they are going to find this offensive, this is nothing compared to what I could have posted.

"Quickly ended that idiocy with their catch and release games like Necro, Warmaster, Mordheim, and the like. I would buy in and just when I had painted armies they would drop it and move on to the next flavor of the year."

Not supporting the GW pricing structure at all, but to be fair games like Necromunda and Mordheim received support for YEARS including expansions, their own magazines etc, and even up until last year were still being produced even if not actively supported. If you had the rules and two gangs then you could play the game, and in fact you still can, nobody is going to come along and stop you. Exactly how long was it taking you to paint these 'armies' (using quotes because armies for both Necromunda and Mordheim consisted of what? 10-12 minis tops?) that just when you finished them they had the audacity to produce something else? Lol.