"Tank crew small arms?" Topic

What small arms might a tank crew in ww2 find themselves outfitted with?

I've read that Shermans came with at least a Thompson or Grease Gun. What about everyone else?

German AFVs often came with racks for MP-40s

Damon.

Churchills had a Sten (or two) and sometimes a Bren for the AA mount.

The crew had revolvers though, if they bothered to carry them.

In John Foleys memoir he recounts how he was known as 'Deadshot Dick' in the squadron due to his prowess with the Webley on the range. However when his tank was knocked out at Brieux, as the survivors escaped they encountered a pair of SS panzer grenadiers carrying an MG42. The heroic Lt Foley engaged them with his Webley and they dropped the MG and ran away. He noted somewhat ruefully that he'd missed a target the size of a barn door at a range if five yards.

But I think in general tank crews didn't aim to duke it out with enemy infantry, unless they'd been tasked with that role (as II/9th SS Panzer Regiment was at Arnhem, as they hadn't go t any tanks).

In several different memoirs tank commanders did route recons and shot it out with enemy infantry. So they had them and used them. I read a book a few years ago titled "US Marine Tank Battles in the Pacific" The crews of Shermans and Stuart tanks used their small arms a lot.

Anyone know what Soviet tank crews might have stowed in the T34?

John Foleys was being to hard on himself Re: the Webley

"He noted somewhat ruefully that he'd missed a target the size of a barn door at a range if five yards".

The tanker version of the Webley had the hammer removed so it wouldn't catch on anything in the tank. Thus it could only fire double action and based on my own limited experience it has a very stiff draw.

Weasel – most likely Vodka

John Foleys book is a good read.

Pistols and SMGs for weapons in WW2, though nowadays I think it's pistols and carbines.

Just had a look at some Ospreys. The stowage diagrams for the Churchill show one Bren and two SMGs.

The T34s didn't seem to have any! either the 76mm or 85mm versions.

Did anyone want to answer the op's question?

In the book, The Germans in Normandy, it said that most german tanks carried one(1) mp40 and "several" pistols(though not all panzer crewmen carried a pistol)and a "supply" of grenades.

What is the title of the Foley book?

Along with the pistols & SMGs mentioned they also carried grenades and had provision to dismount a MG usually the bow MG.

Pretty much every official tank crew armament I've seen consisted of pistols plus at least one SMG.

British (1943-ish) pistols for all ranks, except drivers who had a Sten. (As noted above a Bren was somehow shoehorned into the tank as well, not sure from when). Canadians seemed to have had Stens for both driver and lap-gunner.

US (1943) SMGs all crewmen (officers supposedly switched to a carbine in 1944).

German (1942-43) pistols all ranks, plus an MP40 for the tank itself. By mid-44 the MP40 was supposed to be the driver's weapon instead of a pistol. I think Tigers had two MP40s early on.

Soviet (1942-44) pistols for tank commanders and drivers, SMG for the hull/bow gunner, and oddly nowt for the 'turret commander'. Likewise nothing for the loader added in the T-34/85.

USMC (1943) SMG for tank commander, others all pistols. From 1944 all ranks pistols, with SMG being carried on tank.

Gary

Ken Tout swapped his sten for a Thompson on the boat over to Normandy. He crewed a British Stuart and Sherman at various times.

What is the title of the Foley book?

Mailed Fist. And a very good read it is too.

There is quite a well known pic of a Churchill during Epsom (iirc) with a bipod Vickers K sat on the roof of the turret…

I've just read an account of a British Cromwell crew (5th RTR)in Normandy, in their first action, finding German infantry had climbed on the engine deck, and driving them off with pistol and sten.

Thanks guys :) btw, I do enjoy all the anecdotes and chatter. Thats the reason message boards are so fun.

During Totalise, Ken Tout hit a German with an apple that his gunner had stashed in a bag of hand grenades in the turret of his Sherman, so presumably grenades were a standard item too.

A lot of British tank commanders' memoirs recall the use of grenades thrown from the commander's hatch, so it was by no means uncommon. British crews in US-built tanks would also often have a Thompson; mainly due to the fact that the tank would have a stowage point designed for the Thompson.

Back in the late 1960s or early 1970s, a book/magazine company released a series of posters which were cutaway diagrams of various WW2 tanks including the Sherman, Tiger 1 and the T34.
I had them on my wall in college. On them were locations for stowage of small arms.

So you my check out current cutaway diagrams and see if they have them listed as well.

Pistols for everyone with a sub machine gun or maybe even two per vehicle. The smg was for guard duties or if the crew commander had to do some type of recconnaisance away from the tank.

How about the account of the Japanese officer getting inside a Grant with his sword in Burma? Anyone else remember that?

Never get off the tank.
Only reasons to dismount were maintainance and beer gardens.

"British crews in US-built tanks would also often have a Thompson; mainly due to the fact that the tank would have a stowage point designed for the Thompson."

Strangely the Churchill turret SMG mount also seems to be designed for a Thompson (although the notes say a Sten could be used too).

I just came across a Finnish account of a dismounted Soviet tank crew 'fumbling for their sidearms' in 1944. So, as noted above, it looks like some Soviet crews had pistols. Now I think of it, in 'Men Against Tanks', the commander of the T34 rampaging through the German rear area emerges from his turret hatch waving a pistol (even if it is a P38:).

Troopy,

Yes, there were two instances of tanks being attacked by sword-wielding maniacs in Burma. The first was a horse-mounted officer, who jumped aboard a Stuart of 7th Armoured Brigade and attempted to run the commander through. He wasn't successful and ended up falling off the tank, whereupon the Stuart ran over his legs. He was last seen firing his pistol at the departing tank…

In the second instance, a Lee of 3rd Carabiniers was attacked by another sword-wielding maniac. He succeeded in killing the commander and 37mm loader with his sword ad then attempted unsuccessfully, to stab the 37mm gunner across the breech of the gun. The gunner managed to draw his revolver and emptied it into the Japanese officer, but he wouldn't go down. He then somehow managed to get the officer's own pistol and shot him with that as well! The officer finally succumbed to his wounds.

Astonshingly, the other four members of the Lee's crew were so engaged in the battle that they were entirely unaware of what was happening in the turret!

checked memoirs of Soviet tankers – each crew member in IS or T-34 had TT pistols. SOme recall that you can remove DT machine gun in T-34 and use it, while in IS they had 3 MG, but none could be removed.

Jemina – that's the kind of story where, if you put it in a game, everyone would say how unrealistic you were being :-) Thanks for sharing.

Armor in Focus series on the Churchill has some diagrams and photos of stowage. Churchill III had a Bren with half a dozen 110 round drums in the turret/fighting compartment. There were also 3 boxes of 3 grenades each in the turret stowage (as I recall the AFV Profile on the Churchill listed a total of 30).

As I side note the Churchill also carried 30 smoke bombs for its roof mounted 2-inch mortar.

link

Dmitry Loza at Russia Remembers states that the Lend Lease Shermans sent to Russia came with two Thompsons. He also states that the Thompson was disliked due to its length and that the MP-40 with folding stock was preferred.

link

I remember Kurt meyers writing about his A/C driver tossing a grenade that then rolled back down hill and went off under the A/C. He took the grenades away from the driver after that. I am sure this is in "Grenadiers", but I dont have it out right now.

Elstob (warriors for the working day) refers to having a Bren in Shermans which could be dismounted for whatever…it's a novel, but written by a soldier who served in Shermans in France/Netherlands/Belgium/Germany…any thoughts?

The author of 64 days of a Normandy Summer was in a Cromwell Regt, and describes taking the tank's Bren gun to try and engage a low level German aircraft. Unfortunately his crewman hadn't been taught much about the Bren and just stuffed as many rounds as would fit into the magazine, so all he got was a resounding click on pulling the trigger. I was already thinking I'd read about a Sherman crew dismounting their Bren when they'd been forced to bale out and had to spend an uncomfortable night near the hull (Fine night for tanks maybe?).

Gary

T.34 crews had pistols and at least one smg per tank:one driver recounts driving with the hatch open for better visibility and using his Ppsh through that. They certainly carried a box of grenades as several tanks that have been recovered from swamps still had them on board.

IIRC they were supposed to dismount and take the DT machine guns when abandoning the tank too

Lend lease tanks from the US came with Thompson smg's as part of the standard load out and the Soviet tankers used them

Churchill III had a Bren with half a dozen 110 round drums in the turret/fighting compartment.

Those drum magazines sound curious, I was under the impression that they tended to be relatively uncommon, unless the Bren was being used in anti-aircraft role.