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"was he cheating?" Topic


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2,121 hits since 6 Feb 2016
©1994-2017 Bill Armintrout
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fabambina06 Feb 2016 8:35 p.m. PST

played a new opponent recently. the game was bolt action. had a terrible feeling about his rolls. my friend who was observing was undecided, but leaning towards "just lucky."

it wasn't until two thirds of the way into the first game that we got suspicious, so i didn't keep good numbers before then. but, i recall he was rolling very well, and that is what got us suspicious, then he rolled number one from the list below, and we started paying attention.

i'll just state the facts (two games, same day). these were all separate incidents:

1) rolled four 6's on four dice twice, and he rolled three 6's on four dice at least once.

2) rolled a 6 on a single die followed by another 6 on the same single die 3 times (a double roll, taken one at a time).

3) rolled a 6 firing at the same target 3 tuns in a row.

4) used different sets of dice for morale rolls, which require low rolls to pass.

there is some info that i cannot state exact numbers for, but witnessed (warning-not hard data):

1) kept his shooting dice in two separate piles, and would reach for his "lucky ones" when he really needed a hit.

2) kept his morale die not only separate from those two, but they were opaque, unlike the shooting dice which were clear (transparent).

3) at the start of the game, he showed me his clear dice and volunteered that he had clear ones to avoid suspicions of cheating.

4) when we played the second game, we switched sides. we swapped everything and just changed table sides. except his dice, and he verbatim said," except my dice."

5) (no data) he rolled alot of 6's. every roll had at least one and he would often roll two or more out of 5-7 dice, then another two or more for wound rolls. i did not keep exact numbers.

6) these were playtest games, there was no winner, so this isn't just hard cheese from me. we were both playing competitively to put the scenario to its test by fire.

7) his dice were the little kind that come in a cube. but my friend noticed his clear dice, though similar in appearance and transparent, actually were a little different in color between the two piles. (hearsay)


i like this guy alot, and he is a regular member at our club. i do not like being suspicious of this.

because of this we are considering providing all dice in our upcoming events. are we wrong? is this paranoid?

Hannibus06 Feb 2016 8:50 p.m. PST

Meh, I'd let him know, make him switch dice, but do it as a bud, not a jerk. I feel like it would be one thing to roll a ton of good rolls in a game or even a day, but sticking with a certain die and refusing to switch, especially in a friendly game, makes me wonder.

Buck21506 Feb 2016 8:54 p.m. PST

Instead of using your dice for the rolls, use HIS dice. It worked for James Bond in "Octopussy" when he played against Prince Khan during a mean game of Backgammon…

fabambina06 Feb 2016 8:57 p.m. PST

thanks for both of those pieces of advice. we are considering switching dice, etc.

but do you think i am being paranoid? or is there smoke here?

liborn Inactive Member06 Feb 2016 8:59 p.m. PST

No, not at all! I don't know why some people have to put winning above all else. There is an %$&# in the city where I live that was caught red handed with loaded dice and and cheats in other ways regularly.
I love to play but avoid known cheats and rules "Nazis." I would rather spend the time doing some painting than put up with their crap. It only takes one jerk to ruin a game.

Festerfest06 Feb 2016 9:07 p.m. PST

Occasionally I think about finding an opponent to play toy soldiers with and then I read about this stuff and my social anxiety is reconfirmed.

I think unless impractical everybody should be using the same pool of dice from the start. That would avoid awkward moments like this.

Mako11 Supporting Member of TMP Inactive Member06 Feb 2016 9:11 p.m. PST

#4 is the real clue.

Of course he was cheating. The odds of those rolls occurring with that kind of frequency are way too rare. Four D6s on four dice should happen 8 times in 10,000 dice rolls.

Anytime someone has that string of luck, I'd demand to use their dice too.

Shouldn't be a problem if they're legit.

fabambina06 Feb 2016 9:15 p.m. PST

@Festerfest

i assure you this is the exception. and i play alot, it is my second career.

Milhouse06 Feb 2016 9:35 p.m. PST

Dice also development a slight bias over time (they warp or show pattern). It is why casino's switch out their dice frequently

Festerfest06 Feb 2016 9:42 p.m. PST

@Fabambina

I'm sure it is. And someday I'll probably give it a try. Right now though, I'm pinning my hopes on my 5 year old daughter.

As a related aside, We played a board game today and she rolled five "0"'s on a roll of five 10 sided dice. Of course that meant she failed spectacularly but it does show that weird things do happen with dice.

Back to the original post. The whole "my dice" thing is pretty suspicious. And sad.

redmist112206 Feb 2016 10:01 p.m. PST

I have my "lucky" dice I us in the various game systems, i.e. D6s, D10s, and so on….but its the lucky of the day or simply a bad day in general were the dice will fail you.

I have this one pink D6 I only use to roll for morale checks when a low number is needed…I would say I get a "1" about 75% of the time…the other times I failed…I even let other people use it and they get various results.

So call it what you want, but us gamers are superstitious too like any other person who relies on the "luck" of the dice to win the day…everybody eventually has their day of glory…for me, I'm about 50/50 in winning or getting stomped.

Happy gaming…its just a game.

P.

Personal logo Pictors Studio Sponsoring Member of TMP06 Feb 2016 10:03 p.m. PST

I have a buddy that regularly rolls that bad. His bad dice rolling is spectacular. You just watch it and you can't believe it.

It could have been luck, although it would be exceptional.

Raynman Supporting Member of TMP06 Feb 2016 10:32 p.m. PST

I have very good dice rolls. It frustrates my friends, but they have seen it happen over the last 20 years. I always leave my dice on the table after a roll, so they can see results. I prefer to use my own dice, but have no problem using other dice. They are more than welcome to share and use my dice. At the next game, I'd keep an eye on them. Maybe grab a couple and roll them my self to see how they feel and roll. OR you could just supply all the dice and tell everyone that dice are provided, no need to bring your own dice. See what happens.

wrgmr106 Feb 2016 10:42 p.m. PST

Our group has lots of dice from various members. I can be really hot one night or cold the next.
What you describe seems a bit improbable, especially if he is using his special dice. Ask him to use club dice or another persons dice next game and see if he does, just to see his reaction. If he says no, I only want to use my dice, then he most likely has loaded dice. If he says sure then leave it alone.
Or, ask to try them yourself for a few rolls.

Personal logo chicklewis Supporting Member of TMP06 Feb 2016 11:12 p.m. PST

It is pretty easy to check out. Check the edges of the suspect dice with your thumb. If some of the edges are rounded and some are more sharp, then your suspicions are justified.

Or if they are weight-loaded in some clever way, just drop the dice gently into a tall, transparent glass full of water. Take the ones which can be seen to be sixes, and drop those in again a few times. If they are weight loaded the six will come up almost every time.

Personal logo Texas Jack Supporting Member of TMP07 Feb 2016 4:20 a.m. PST

I wonder if he is a TMP member. If he reads this then heŽll know youŽre onto him, and then perhaps he will play fair without a confrontation. Or not.

Huscarle Supporting Member of TMP07 Feb 2016 4:56 a.m. PST

For one game you can let it go, as most people get a roll of luck at some stage, but if it happens in every game, then you'll know.

Personal logo herkybird Supporting Member of TMP07 Feb 2016 5:15 a.m. PST

Ask him to use the morale dice for shooting and vice versa, if he has a problem with that gently voice your suspicions.

cavcrazy07 Feb 2016 5:43 a.m. PST

Rolls like that means he should be at a craps table not a wargaming table!
I liked the suggestion of using his dice.

SoW Reddog Inactive Member07 Feb 2016 5:45 a.m. PST

Sounds like he was using cheeky dice yes. Mind you my regular opponents dice rolling is unbelievable. He just has absolute luck most of the time. It doesn't matter whether they're my dice, his dice, D6s, D10s. Roll high or roll low. He's just lucky. The ONE game his luck deserted him and I walloped him was hilarious except of course he sulked.

Personal logo herkybird Supporting Member of TMP07 Feb 2016 5:55 a.m. PST

Yes, we all have good dice day – and awful days, this makes it difficult to point the finger.

Thinking about it, outside a game, ask if you can have a go at throwing his dice and see if there is a statistical bias for you. It will clear the air wonderfully, I think!

Personal logo ochoin Supporting Member of TMP07 Feb 2016 6:44 a.m. PST

I was wondering how you rig dice.

I found these (don't worry: I don't plan to make/buy any)

wikihow.com/Load-Dice

link

link


And this might be useful:

link

Personal logo Private Matter Supporting Member of TMP07 Feb 2016 6:52 a.m. PST

When I host games, I gently push that all players use the same dice to avoid even the slightest appearance of shady dealings.

cosmicbank07 Feb 2016 6:57 a.m. PST

total number of times rolled divid by 6

Timbo W07 Feb 2016 6:57 a.m. PST

Could be loaded dice, in which case he's a **insert expletive here** of the worst type. Could be a bit less shady if he's bought a load of cheap dice (that are randomly biased), kept the 'lucky' ones that roll high or low as the case might be and discarded the rest. I don't think this is out-and-out cheating but certainly bad sportsmanship.

Most clubs I've been to have a big jar of 'club dice' that are used for all games to avoid these sorts of suspicions.

thorr66607 Feb 2016 7:00 a.m. PST

Not cheating, just an ex 40k player sounds like ;)

Marshal Mark07 Feb 2016 7:21 a.m. PST

No one is lucky ( or unlucky) at rolling dice. No one regularly rolls well or badly. For those people who say that this does happen, I suggest you record their rolls. You will find that they roll the same as anyone else.

Schogun Supporting Member of TMP07 Feb 2016 7:46 a.m. PST

What Buck125 said -- next time use his dice. "I need a good roll. Let me use your lucky dice." If he says no, something about tainting his dice if you touch them, then that's the last game.

LesCM1907 Feb 2016 7:51 a.m. PST

re the floating dice test, it has to be a strong salt water solution for them to float, and some of mine were way too heavy.

Dice I had been using for years, I had to bin 60% of them when I did this test. Although a solo gamer I still wanted a proper random spread.

The suspected bent gamer has obviously tested them and separated them for high/low roll preference. I think he is totally out of order, gone beyond a quiet chat.

Personal logo Saber6 Supporting Member of TMP Fezian07 Feb 2016 8:18 a.m. PST

The pattern of use is highly suggestive. We had a guy do this years ago, one set of dice had no 1's, replaced by 6's the other with no 2's replaced by 5's

He was shamed and shunned.

Personal logo Chuckaroobob Supporting Member of TMP07 Feb 2016 8:31 a.m. PST

I am tremendously unlucky, and yes, during some games I have recorded my results. I have had gamers with 25+ years experience tell me they have never seen such lousy rolls. I have hundreds of dice and it makes no difference which ones I roll, or if other people use them.

My personal worst: 14 "1" results on 14 D6. The CRT of a "1" was "Attacker Eliminated" so the game was effectively over after than turn.

Sudwind07 Feb 2016 9:55 a.m. PST

Most dice available are not properly balanced and lack proper crisp corners and edges. You could easily select dice that tend to roll more favorably by testing them. There is a reason casino dice are better balance and manufactured with greater precision.

Personal logo T Callahan Supporting Member of TMP07 Feb 2016 10:41 a.m. PST

While we were playing DBA one of the players related a story about cheating.
His opponent had two dice he used in the game and was always getting great rolls for pips when he needed them. After showing the roll he would pick the dice up and put it nearby out of reach of anyone. At one point he rolled a 6 and an observer reached over and grabbed the die before the player could retrieve it. On inspection the die had 2 sixes, 2 fives and 2 fours. Since an you can only observe three sides of a die at the same time it was easy to use the dice. The convention threw the individual out of the tournament and con. When other player asked the observer how he guessed the dice were fixed he said he thought it strange that when the die was rolled he saw two sixes on the die. (you know when the die bounces and rolls over in very slow motion you can see the sides of the die as it rotates). The other die was fixed with low numbers.

When we play the GM supplies the dice, no one uses their own personal dice.

Terry

wyeayeman07 Feb 2016 10:51 a.m. PST

Think of how much of a sad person this fellow is. If he has to cheat to win he must be really Bleeped text*d up in other areas of his life too, Either don't play him again, complementing him on his excellent generalship and telling him he needs to find a more worthy opponent. Or simply laugh when he beats you.
We had a cheater in our group. No one (save me) really challenged him. He conned a friend out of quite a bit of money. I laughed at that!

BulldogD07 Feb 2016 11:00 a.m. PST

I'm with wyeayeman. Cheating at "just a game" in my experience is symptomatic of deeper character flaws. Such types are trouble.

Personal logo John Treadaway Supporting Member of TMP07 Feb 2016 11:50 a.m. PST

Yes.

Refusal to share dice says it all.

Whether he set out to cheat by buying loaded dice or whether he just continuously (and rather sadly) sat rolling dice when away from the game and, based on results observed harvested the ones giving the best results, it doesn't matter. The ends are the same.

If it were me, he could either share dice when questioned or he could play on his own.

John T

Korvessa07 Feb 2016 1:32 p.m. PST

The guy I solo with cheats all the time ;-)

Mako11 Supporting Member of TMP Inactive Member07 Feb 2016 1:48 p.m. PST

Well, that is to be expected, Korvessa, in many cases…….

Have you confronted him yet about it?

Razor7807 Feb 2016 3:24 p.m. PST

I ordered some custom dice for my SS army that has the SS runes in place of 6s. There are some games where they are on fire and I roll a ton of 6s but others where I can't buy a 6. My friends hate them when they are "hot" but dont seem to notice when they are off. I too use a different set of grey german dice when I need low rolls just because I "think" they rolk low. But I'm more than happy to let anyone else roll my dice if they want.

Personal logo John Treadaway Supporting Member of TMP07 Feb 2016 3:50 p.m. PST

But I'm more than happy to let anyone else roll my dice if they want

That's the difference

John T

Ottoathome07 Feb 2016 3:56 p.m. PST

When I set up a game at my house I provide all the dice. Just before the battle begins I dump out into the dice tray 100 pink dice with white spots. It's the only dice allowed on the table. That's for my 18th Century game. For my Civil War Game thee are red and blue die, and for my modern game green dice.

I bought em, they are all equal, and you can't tell them apart.

#3 is the tip off. That he would have to "show you " to prove earnest is the give away.

skinkmasterreturns07 Feb 2016 4:03 p.m. PST

I caught a close and long time friend of mine cheating when rolling dice,but I never said a word,but he knew from my expression that I caught it. Pay attention to his hands,some people are very practiced at "flipping" dice by moving their hand over it turning it up to a 6. It was so subtle the way he did it,its no wonder I never noticed it

Personal logo War Panda Supporting Member of TMP07 Feb 2016 7:37 p.m. PST

Generally I wouldn't regard my history of rolling die as been worthy of note; good or bad. But I made a tutorial video for a wargame last year when I recorded the die rolls. During the recording I rolled a ridiculous amount of 6's including (if I remember correctly 3 or 4x 6's out of 4) It meant the US won the battle which they were very unlikely to do. Luck would have it that the German's rolled really badly (especially their morale rolls -all using the same dice!)

Although I was playing solo I remember thinking the youtube viewers would be completely convinced I was "cheating" or fixing the rolls for the US. (I even considered re-rolling some results so they might appear less favorable.) So although I agree with most people that it really sounds like a case of cheating, I'd personally give him the benefit of the doubt this once and play him again in the future.

Maybe introduce the game by subtly insisting each player rolls all their dice and then the players must swap any dice that rolled a 6. Make it sound like an actual tradition by giving the ritual a title: "Ok let's play "Custer's Dice Slice" or "Dice Cut Sixtables" or "Nappy's Lucky General Rule" or something similarly silly…. :) That way both players share in each others "lucky" dice. And if he has brought his "cheating dice" well enjoy the evening ;) Perhaps introduce or even try out this "tradition" with your pals before the rematch so as to give it some authenticity

Jim Selzer07 Feb 2016 9:02 p.m. PST

anytime some one has specific die for certain rolls ie some need high numbers others need low I would suspect cheating in one particular game we play you need a low roll to hit and a high for damage done and as a general rule like to see the same die used for both rolls

Tiberius08 Feb 2016 12:00 a.m. PST

Play one set of dice regardless of whether you need high or low. (That is why rules are designed to need high or low rolls to try and avoid loaded dice.)

If he keeps rolling high when he needs low then you have caught him out.

Dont allow separate dice for shooting, and another set for morale etc.. Just one set of dice from the lot

(Phil Dutre)08 Feb 2016 6:25 a.m. PST

From your description of events, yes, I would say he's cheating.

The real question is how to address it?

I would not accuse him as a player, but accuse his dice. "I suspect your dice are loaded. Perhaps they are of inferior quality, or there might be a manufacturing problem. Shall we test them?" And then you do some statistical tests with his dice. And if there indeed is a problem, you can both blame those lousy dice companies.

Accusing his dice, but not him, leaves him some room for adjusting his behaviour without losing face. If he's a cheat, but values the companionship of the club more, he will get the hint.

If this doesn't lead to a satisfactory solution, he's probably not the type of guy you want to play with in the long run.

haywire Supporting Member of TMP08 Feb 2016 7:08 a.m. PST

If the dice are opaque, there is a great chance that they are not balanced. I have a lot of chessex dice that seem to roll 6s more than usual. I have no performed the salt water test on them, but I have been tempted.

fabambina08 Feb 2016 12:12 p.m. PST

thanks for all the help, advice, and opinions, guys.

having spoken to the last guy who played him, we've decided he is definitely cheating. in his last game before mine, he used his clear (possibly loaded) dice to roll morale checks at first, failed them all, then switched to the opaque ones and made every one. now we feel he may have two sets of dice weighted in opposite directions.

since he is an otherwise friendly guy, and very enthusiastic about our game, and , let's face it, spends alot of money at our club, we are gonna just pass over it.

we are instituting a club rule for this game, all club games must be played with club dice. we will not address him personally, but just require everyone to use our club dice, randomly selected from our jar, for official games.

we also will require that all players be required to swap dice with their opponent in any game played at our club, upon request.

that's the best we can do.

thanks again!

doublesix6608 Feb 2016 1:50 p.m. PST

Sound's like a good plan fab, personally when we game we use a pool of die that everyone uses so no chance of dodgy dealings or bad feeling just good/bad luck.

Personal logo herkybird Supporting Member of TMP08 Feb 2016 4:07 p.m. PST

Good luck, good plan!

You may just start winning again!

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