 deadhead  | 06 Feb 2016 9:26 a.m. PST |
Then came the band. I was happy with my small early band. Everyone was very complimentary. But Von Winterfeldt pointed out the band should have been on white horses. "Nonsense" I cried….but he does usually get such things right. Of course he was …………. Right, an expanded band resulted. Minor conversions for variety. These two trumpeters had their arms amputated and their heads rotated to face further forward. The original is in the Charge of the Mamelukes! The poor cymbalist suffered a similar fate. Both arms reattached to bring cymbals closer together. I thought they were banged together to sound, but Mrs F tells me they are swept across each other, face to face. The things you learn. In all seriousness…thanks von W again!
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| von Winterfeldt | 06 Feb 2016 12:33 p.m. PST |
Now doesn't that look very impressive??
Thumbs up |
| deadhead | 06 Feb 2016 12:39 p.m. PST |
OK…OK…OK, I admit it…. Yes, you were right……I was wrong I suspect you usually are in things Napoleonic, so when you said…I thought…..AAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH! Seriously tho'…thanks again. It was worth it! Always worries me when folk react badly to having any error pointed out. If you are not bothered, ignore it. But we can all learn, if we want to. The whole point of a forum like this is to do better next time. Not to take it personally…… My marriage has still survived redoing a dozen new Mamelukes (she tells me) |
| Marc the plastics fan | 07 Feb 2016 9:36 a.m. PST |
I know I should talk about the figures but everyone will do that, so… Actually, this is the first time I have realised you have mounted them on some sort of street scene. I like that. What did you use? |
| deadhead | 07 Feb 2016 10:17 a.m. PST |
You mean what I thought were cobbles but turn out to be "Granite Sets"? Ideal for French, esp Paris, streets. The bottom layer is a clear plastic disc used as a microscope lens cover. It is removed before every procedure I do in the OR, as our Transatlantic rebel cousins call it. My scrub staff save every one for me. But, on that, can go anything cut in the same diameter. This is Wills Scenic Materials Pack SSMP204, stocked in any model railway shop. (I go to Monkbar in York) I cut off all the bases off the horses…well around each hoof, but leaving just that small projection. Easy
done with a heavy duty wire cutter. Mark out where the hooves go and drill a hole. Stick the "cobbles" to the plastic disc base, paint the cobbles (another story involving washes and washing up liquid) and finally sink in the horses. See the nearest white horse, leading? His front left leg I did not trim enough and you still see an angular remnant of the base. To quote, or paraphrase, Lady Macbeth "A little paint soon rids us of this deed" Not as complicated as it sounds actually |
jammy four  | 07 Feb 2016 12:02 p.m. PST |
deadhead your sterling efforts reminds me of the 1970 film Waterloo where Napoleons favourite Aide-de-campe says something along the line of "you have taken glory to another level" ……with your dedication to my squadron of Mamelukes……..in all manner of splendid locations
I do like the street scene with the isometric view…
top man cheers
Ged
gringo40s.com
gringo40s.blogspot.com |
| stoneman1810 | 07 Feb 2016 3:48 p.m. PST |
Great job man! The cobblestone bases are indeed well done. |
| deadhead | 08 Feb 2016 10:33 a.m. PST |
Well I never knew it was isometric……..the things you learn. I think the background worked even better used for the "Toug of Mamelukes" pictures below. Finished basing the charging lads now….more wheat fields! |
| jammy four | 08 Feb 2016 12:55 p.m. PST |
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| Markconz | 29 Feb 2016 3:02 p.m. PST |
Missed these, lovely models and painting! |
| bracken | 29 Feb 2016 3:51 p.m. PST |
As always a pleasure to see these colourful figures! They do stand out better on white horses. |
| deadhead | 29 Feb 2016 4:57 p.m. PST |
Thanks indeed but von Winterfeldt to thank for that…… He is not often wrong, so…when he said, maybe I should rethink that……….. I see some of the pictures are no longer appearing. Imageshack is doing strange things again; let me try once more. Still wondering about conversions now to 1805 Mamelukes. Must finish the 52nd and 71st first!
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| jammy four | 01 Mar 2016 5:13 p.m. PST |
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| Scharnachthal | 06 Mar 2016 3:48 a.m. PST |
Please, don't get me wrong. Both the sculptor's and the painter's work are fantastic. However, there is a fundamental flaw regarding one of the instruments played, obviously due to a mistaken interpretation by Rousselot on whose painting of a guard mameluke band these figures appear to be based. The band of the mamelukes is said to have been composed of a kettle drummer, two chapeau chinois (jingling johnnies), two cymbals, and two "tambours de basque" (besides four trumpeters and a brigadier trompette). Now, "tambour de basque" is not a small kettledrum as inexplicably shown by Rousselot, but a tambourine. I really don't know why he didn't get that – all the more, considering the fact that there is a kettle drummer already. He should have realized… The moral of the story: absolutely never trust "expert uniformologists"…;-)) It would be great if Gringo 40's could retrieve that error on Rousselot's side by sculpting another bandsman beating a tambourine (two versions were used at the time: either the instrument was held with one hand and beaten with the other or it was provided with a grip held with one hand and beaten with a stick held with the other). Thanks in advance |
| jammy four | 06 Mar 2016 4:37 a.m. PST |
Scharnachthal fascinating comments regarding the Mamelukes ..what would be excellent would be some colour plates/line drawings I could peruse as I had dug deep on the Mamelukes..Brunon collection and the Museums etc in Paris and elsewhere. in a way the comment makes sense as uniformology is not an exact science and to be frank I would be happy to make an additional figures cheers
Ged
gringo40s.com
gringo40s.blogspot.com |
| deadhead | 06 Mar 2016 4:46 a.m. PST |
Can I also add my thanks. That is why I love this forum. My original error with the horses was barn door obvious….once I was told about it by von W! I too would to see any illustrations of bandsmen. Now to Google "tambours de basque"………then if I saw off the small drums…….a tambourine would be an easy conversion…….. As for additional figures………..Oh yes. Ideal. Earlier mamelukes for 1805 if one was to be really radical. No collar, flared sleeves like a 70s Biba vest, open waistcoat etc Indeed, all that is really needed is a single "extension kit" of different right arms. The present pistol holding one is really clever. The sword option works best I feel if carried low at the hip. What about a metal sprue of maybe three thrusting sword arms, three swords shouldered for parade and ready, a couple with the blunderbuss (OK, I know it was not really used but……) held with the butt on the thigh? Perhaps one more horse variant? AAAAAAAAAAAARGH…….. |
| jammy four | 06 Mar 2016 4:50 a.m. PST |
Deadhead ok…………….you first!!
looking forward…….
the more we read up and find out about the Mamelukes
the more fascinating they become!! cheers
Ged
gringo40s.com
gringo40s.blogspot.com |
| Scharnachthal | 06 Mar 2016 5:09 a.m. PST |
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| deadhead | 06 Mar 2016 7:56 a.m. PST |
It all suddenly makes sense. I confess I did wonder why the lad in the full dress, the kettledrummer, needed a couple of companions with smaller but very similar drums. Let us blame Rousellot then. Napoleonic bands esp mounted of the Guard are a very niche market and will not make anyone's fortune. But how I would love to recreate what I see for Chasseurs a Chev, Grenadiers or Dragoons…….. Brilliant contribution. Many thanks. My favourite is still the cymbalist, because he has both hands away from his torso. A bit of amputation and the conversion potential is amazing. Snag is he does not have the pistol holster…..easily fixed! How I wish more often we could see metal 28mm figs come thus. Plastics often do. Give us the left arm separate too! Also, there are those of us who really want to know if we have made an error. If I should not have British trumpeters on Greys, if I have the King's and Regt colours the wrong way around, if my band should be on greys…I really want to know. I know there are those who get really upset….not me…..that is what this forum is for |
| jammy four | 06 Mar 2016 1:22 p.m. PST |
more interesting by the minute..would still like to see a line drawing…….or even rough illustration though the written evidence is compelling! regards
Ged
gringo40s.com
gringo40s.blogspot.com |
| deadhead | 08 Mar 2016 5:39 a.m. PST |
Honestly, I am not just trying to push this back to the top rather than let it die its natural death. But how interesting it has been researching Napoleonic band instruments. Very different from what we see today and the few models that exist do not always fit in with contemporary pictures. For example, I found a trombone that seemed to be back to front, indeed one thus, but with a serpent's head behind the player's shoulder instead of the flared end we expect. Some very weird looking woodwind and brass instruments, not just the "serpent" we all know. The tambour de basque does appear elsewhere (and thanks for the illustrations already linked in by Scharnachthal). Top right here also;
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| Scharnachthal | 08 Mar 2016 12:51 p.m. PST |
@deadhead Yes, the figure upper row, far right, represents a musician playing a "tambour de basque". Actually, I know of a similar contemporary illustration in colour which shows the same musicians (though in a different order) – all labelled. Unfortunately, I wasn't careful enough to get down where I found it, either on the net or in one of my books or journals (can't find it on the net, at present). My fault, sorry. At any rate, on the coloured illustration all musicians are labelled, the one in question: "Tambour de Basque". Another contemporary (Directoire era) illustration of the same instrument can be found here (upper row, third figure): frda.stanford.edu/en/catalog/jz095dq1823 An ordinary tambourine (tambour de basque) without grip and stick can be seen e.g. on the following contemporary depiction of a French line infantry band (presumably the band of the 95th regiment of the line, garrisoned at Nuremberg in 1806): gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b84134064/f1.item.r=nuremberg%201806.zoom As for the rear-facing trombones, there is a nice summary on the subject (including Napoleonic era rear-facing trombones) here: hubpages.com/entertainment/Backward-Bones-Rear-Facing-Trombones-Throughout-History#
@jammy four
I don't know exactly what else you need. If you expect me to post a contemporary illustration of the guard mameluke band, I must disappoint you. To my knowledge, no one has been found so far. But who knows what's hidden in the archives and libraries… However, that's of no importance as the name of the instrument – "tambour de basque" – clearly defines what instruments should be represented: tambourines. Of course, you still have to choose between the two varieties in use. Or you could sculpt one of each [all the better ;-)]…I think the various illustrations of both the versions with and without grip should provide the necessary information on how they were played. The illustrations should be instructive enough regarding the variety with stick. For the one without sticks look at John Fraser's (Frazer's) portrait…: britishempire.co.uk/forces/armyunits/britishinfantry/coldstreamband1800.htm …or just any other illustration of a tambourine player (google for "tambourine player"…) |
| deadhead | 08 Mar 2016 1:03 p.m. PST |
You have done some superb research on this. I only wish I had started this as a totally separate topic. I may well do so, as there is some quite unique info here, that may be lost in a topic about Mamelukes. Napoleonic bands are not mainstream interest but you have some great images here. I found one picture ofa rear facing trombone and assumed it was an artist's error…or perhaps a very early and short lived variant. I found your trombone information at least as valuable as the tambour |
| jammy four | 08 Mar 2016 3:04 p.m. PST |
Deadhead …………splendid pictorial evidence. Scharnachthal.thanks for taking all the trouble more then enough food for thought there. im quite taken with the
tambourine … I have just been given a load of archival information
from my friend John Franklin on the Mamelukes all new information I need to translate absorb and look even closer now. especially on the instrument front with eye0witness
accounts. cheers
Ged
gringo40s.com
gringo40s.blogspot.com |
| deadhead | 09 Mar 2016 12:45 p.m. PST |
Tell me that you feel a book coming on…….. Osprey is well illustrated, but a modern update would be brilliant |
| jammy four | 09 Mar 2016 5:05 p.m. PST |
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| jammy four | 11 Mar 2016 5:14 a.m. PST |
Deadhead et all just to say im having New moulds made by Griffin for Captain Kirman and the Kettledrummer as original production mould wore out through overuse. please
bear with me though there is enough stock to see me through Salute 16/4/2016
regards
Ged
gringo40s.com
gringo40s.blogspot.com
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| Scharnachthal | 11 Mar 2016 9:03 a.m. PST |
I'm puzzled. Till this morning, this thread had 26 posts. Now, 6 have disappeared. The Napoleonic Discussion message board says that there is 1 post left. What a mess. Any explanations or excuses? |
| Gazzola | 12 Mar 2016 7:42 a.m. PST |
They look really cool on those white horses. And the pics make me want to get stuck into painting my Mamelukes. |
| Gazzola | 12 Mar 2016 9:38 a.m. PST |
They look really cool on white horses. Will have to get started on my own Mamelukes |
| deadhead | 13 Mar 2016 12:33 p.m. PST |
I have just discovered the answer to cold fusion…it cam just after the Theory of Everything as I was leaving the pub after today's draw against Man Utd…this is my last chance to post it |
| deadhead | 13 Mar 2016 1:01 p.m. PST |
I'm forever blowing Bubbles….. We've got Payet It will not post I know. But it goes back to the top again…… Me. cynical? |
| deadhead | 15 Mar 2016 3:57 a.m. PST |
I'm forever blowing bubbles………… We've got Payet…. No harm in trying to post |
| jammy four | 15 Mar 2016 4:58 a.m. PST |
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| jammy four | 17 Mar 2016 4:44 p.m. PST |
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| deadhead | 25 Mar 2016 4:18 p.m. PST |
It is back…………it is working again! What a clever Editor we have. Please accept my apologies all. This has been suppressed since that daft cyber attack and is suddenly back tonight. Please ignore it now. There are far more interesting newer topics running Now can we protect against further attacks? Can we do anything to help even if it means raising subs to fund that? |
| jammy four | 25 Mar 2016 5:09 p.m. PST |
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| jammy four | 25 Mar 2016 5:12 p.m. PST |
Deadhead…………….we need you to focus on your next unit of French or allied cavalry…en avant!! bagging up Lithuanians as requested…….and the
Neapolitan Cavalry for 1860…new period?
cheers
Ged
gringo40s.com
gringo40s.blogspot.com
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| deadhead | 26 Mar 2016 2:01 a.m. PST |
First restoration conversions……a Godsend in what is very, very, like Louis XVIII rig. |
| Scharnachthal | 26 Mar 2016 3:44 a.m. PST |
Glad to see that it was possible to fully restore this thread. Thank you. |
| jammy four | 28 Mar 2016 2:38 a.m. PST |
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| Scharnachthal | 22 Feb 2017 12:03 p.m. PST |
@deadhead We all know Gringo 40's mameluke band. But do you know that Mirliton used to have one as well? They seem to be out of production for a very long time by now. A few years ago, I was lucky enough to spot one on eBay. Pure coincidence as – at the time – I did not even know they ever existed. Same mistake as with the Gringos, BTW, regarding the "tambour de basque", so, obviously, another Rousselot victim…Size is the same as that of Mirliton's cuirassier/dragoon band. i.e., they are on the smaller side rather (compatible with Perry or Offensive, not with, e.g. Front Rank). Don't know how big the Gringos are…
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| deadhead | 22 Feb 2017 4:15 p.m. PST |
Oh these are superb. Well done! I suspect they are in 1/72 scale, but (probably for that reason) their proportions are great. What a brilliant posting. Great that you could find this. Cannot see the tougs…the horse hair thing hanging from a bronzed staff |
| Scharnachthal | 22 Feb 2017 4:46 p.m. PST |
No, they are not 1/72. Same size as Mirliton's cuirassier/dragoon band mentioned elsewhere. I did not only spot them, I got them too… Tougs aren't instruments but standards. You cannot even shake them like jingling johnnys (also considered to be standards rather than instruments strictly speaking but still useable as instruments)…so definitely not actually belonging to the band.  (…I mean, you can shake them, of course, but you will hardly hear anything… ) |
| deadhead | 23 Feb 2017 2:25 a.m. PST |
Of course………… I was thinking that I had put them with the band, so they belong there. Then I thought that of course I placed mine around the eagle and on bay horses. It is my age. You "lucky" man to have got these while you could |
| von Winterfeldt | 23 Feb 2017 6:09 a.m. PST |
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| deadhead | 27 Feb 2017 2:33 a.m. PST |
Oh I did see them..wonderful and thanks to all for directing me that way |
paints brigs for the British fleet.
